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2nd Test - Australia v New Zealand Hobart Dec 9 - Dec 13 2011

TheParraboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
69,573
How about a alltime kiwi side?

John Wright
Bruce Edgar
Mark Greatbatch
Geoff Howard (c)
Martin Crowe
Daniel Vettori
Ian Smith
Richard Hadlee
Martin Sneddon
Shane Bond
Ewan Chatfield
 

beads6

First Grade
Messages
6,162
Hadlee has an Aura about him for sure. I am not old enough to have seen a lot of him but what I have seen he was something special.
 
Messages
3,859
Bill Woodfull
Bill Ponsford
Lindsay Hassett
Neil Harvey
Jack Ryder
Keith Miller
Len Maddocks
Shane Warne
Merv Hughes
Hugh Trumble
Bill Johnston
 

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,488
Very dodgy but here is my NZ XI

John Wright
Glenn Turner
Andrew Jones
Martin Crowe
Stephen Fleming
Nathan Astle
Daniel Vettori
Ian Smith
Richard Hadlee
Bruce Taylor
Shane Bond
 

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,488
Hadlee has an Aura about him for sure. I am not old enough to have seen a lot of him but what I have seen he was something special.
Not too many people have a FC double century and 9 wicket haul. Hadlee does, he was truly a great allrounder and wouldn't look out of place in any best ever side. He has a test 150 as well.
 

undertaker

Coach
Messages
11,079
LONG POST DISCLAIMER

I'm not here to comment on who our best XI was since 1877, as I wasn't old enough to see most of the names that are thrown around in this thread (I'm 24). However, if you ask me to name the best Australian XI I have seen (ie the best players at their peak) since I started watching cricket in the 1995/96 summer, it'd be

1 Hayden
2 Slater
3 Ponting
4 M Waugh
5 S Waugh (c)
6 Hussey
7 Gilchrist (wk)
8 Warne
9 Gillespie
10 MacGill
11 McGrath

Again, I repeat, this is a team of whom I believe were the best players at their peak. If you were to have all of those players at their peak and that side were to play the Indians this summer, barring bad weather, 4-0 would be the scoreline.

Regarding the bowlers, McGrath (best and most accurate fast bowler I've seen. Shaun Pollock, although not Australian, is not far behind in second place) and Warne (best spinner) are a shoe-in by a country mile, so no need for a long explanation of their selections. Regarding the other fast bowler, McGrath had many opening fast bowling partners (McDermott, Kasprowicz, Bichel, Gillespie, Flemming, Lee etc.), but at their peaks, Gillespie was the most lethal of the lot before he had his injury problems. I believe on the 1997 tour of South Africa, he clocked 155km/h, which was the fastest speed at the time (before Shoaib Akhtar and Brett Lee emerged a year or two later). He was more accurate than the other bowlers (reflecting in his average of 26), and such a shame that his career dramatically nosedived during the 2005 Ashes, and he was always on the outer with Ponting and the selectors after that. Furthermore, somewhat a bitter pill that although we played Bangladesh, he finished his career with a double century. To this day, I believe he shouldn't have been omitted from the side post-Ashes - that's a discussion for another time. Instead of chosing a third fast bowler, I put MacGill as the other bowler. Again, a shame he didn't play more tests, as Warne was the more marketable in the side. By the time he was seen as Warne's replacment post 2006/07 Ashes, his best years were well and truly behind him at 36 yrs of age. Being constantly in and out of the side makes it difficult for anyone to build any sort of consistency, but late 90s/early 00s, MacGill would've walked into any other international side as a spinner. He even outplayed Warne for the most part when they played together; Warne being notably omitted from the 4th test during the '99 tour of West Indies. Most memorable game for mine was the '99 SCG test. I've never seen anyone spin the ball as much as he did. I'm confident we would've won the 2005 Ashes had he been picked when McGrath got injured, as the Poms couldn't play leg-spin bowling for nuts, and Warne needed someone bowling from the other end to build sustained pressure.

Regarding the wicketkeeper, Healy was the better wicketkeeper. But, as a combination of wicketkeeping ability and batting ability, Gilchrist's batting gets him over the line. Gilly started showing signs of wear and tear during the 2005 Ashes, dropped many catches towards the end of his career. However, he took some rippers early on in his career: most notably being that 3rd test vs Pakistan at Perth in 1999. One of the best diving catches I've seen.

Regarding the batting, Ponting is a shoe-in at 3. At his peak, the best batsman we've had post-Bradman era. M Waugh had the best, most natural batting technique. One of the most naturally giften batsmen during his prime, but like Greg Blewett, someone who was ill-disciplined and whose statistics are not a fair reflection of his ability (averaging only 41, like Greg Matthews). I have no doubt that if this problem was rectified, he would've, like his brother, averaged at least 50. S Waugh...what more can you say? Like Border, one of only a few batsmen who played match-winning innings and always played for the team. He is the personification of grit and determination. Slater, I'd have just over Langer. Shame that his test career ended in acrimonious circumstances and surprising, didn't excel in the ODI format of the game as his aggressive style of batting was tailor-made for it. However, like M Waugh, lots of talent, but ill-discipline and impatience cost him dearly at times (getting out in the 90s 8 or 9 times). Add 8 or 9 more centuries to his test statistics would be a more accurate reflection of his true playing talent. At his peak, his timing of the ball was nearly as good as M Waugh's, and formed a formidable opening partnership with Tubby Taylor. Although Hayden/Langer achieved more records, in my opinion, the Taylor/Slater combination in the 90s gets the nod for me as they had to contend with better bowling attacks and less batter-friendly pitches. Haydos, well, his career didn't excel until he became a permanent fixture in the side around 2000/01, and he achieved a hell of a lot since then.
Hussey is, what I would say, the controversial selection in my XI. I know he's only played tests for 6 yrs, but from what I saw early in his career and the recent tour of Sri Lanka, is a very naturally gifted middle-order batsman. Mitchell Johnson gets a lot of credit for that Ashes test in Perth last year, but it was Hussey who got us out of trouble with his batting in that test. Hussey's batting was more valuable than Mitch's bowling and as a result, very unlucky not to get MOTM imo.
 
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yappy

Bench
Messages
4,161
Hadlee has an Aura about him for sure. I am not old enough to have seen a lot of him but what I have seen he was something special.

Absolutely top of the top drawer. Control, swing, seam. Pretty quick early on but even when he slowed bowled a heavy ball. Just destroyed us for a decade.
 

undertaker

Coach
Messages
11,079
Very dodgy but here is my NZ XI

John Wright
Glenn Turner
Andrew Jones
Martin Crowe
Stephen Fleming
Nathan Astle
Daniel Vettori
Ian Smith
Richard Hadlee
Bruce Taylor
Shane Bond

I know us Aussies love to take the piss out of the "folk from across the ditch" (to quote Billy Birmingham, aka the 12th man), but I always give credit where credit is due and since my time watching cricket, Bond is the only NZ bowler who I've seen trouble Australia, and one of the very few international bowlers who has bowled well in Australia over the past decade and a half (which can't be said about 99% of bowlers, who may have good records in their own country, but are abysmal outside). Never forgot his stellar performances during the 2001/02 summer, as well as the Super Six match in the 2003 World Cup.
 
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typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,488
Can't dispute the players listed that I have seen play. I know us Aussies love to take the piss out of the "folk from across the ditch" (to quote Billy Birmingham, aka the 12th man), but I always give credit where credit is due and since my time watching cricket, Bond is the only NZ bowler who I've seen trouble Australia, and one of the very few international bowlers who has bowled well in Australia over the past decade and a half (which can't be said about 99% of bowlers, who may have good records in their own country, but are abysmal outside). Never forgot his stellar performances during the 2001/02 summer, as well as the Super Six match in the 2003 World Cup.
Well of my side, all batsmen from 1-10 have scored a test century, Crowe is NZs finest batsman and played well against Australia and if you look at some of the others they also have strong records. Vettori for example has his best bowling figures against us at the peak of our powers.

There are players who feature in these sides that I may have omitted but even guys like Astle for example has the fastest double hundred in history.
 

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,488
LONG POST DISCLAIMER

I'm not here to comment on who our best XI was since 1877, as I wasn't old enough to see most of the names that are thrown around in this thread (I'm 24). However, if you ask me to name the best Australian XI I have seen (ie the best players at their peak) since I started watching cricket in the 1995/96 summer, it'd be

1 Hayden
2 Slater
3 Ponting
4 M Waugh
5 S Waugh (c)
6 Hussey
7 Gilchrist (wk)
8 Warne
9 Gillespie
10 MacGill
11 McGrath

Dizzy was cruelled by injuries. He used to provide the perfect blend of McGrath and his deadly accuracy and Lee with his deadly pace. He pitched it up a little further than McGrath so he usually went for more runs but it meant in a lot of cases, he created more opportunities, even if it was the bowler down the other end cashing in.
 

undertaker

Coach
Messages
11,079
Well of my side, all batsmen from 1-10 have scored a test century, Crowe is NZs finest batsman and played well against Australia and if you look at some of the others they also have strong records. Vettori for example has his best bowling figures against us at the peak of our powers.

There are players who feature in these sides that I may have omitted but even guys like Astle for example has the fastest double hundred in history.

Well, from what many Kiwis have told me, Crowe (batting) and Sir Richard Hadlee (bowling all-rounder) are undoubtedly the two best and renowned players to play for the Kiwis. They are probably NZ's equivalent of what Sir Don is to Australia, Tendulkar is to India, Sir Viv/Lara/Ambrose/Marshall are to the West Indies etc. etc. (you get what I mean)
 

yappy

Bench
Messages
4,161
I think Turner was probably a better batsman than Crowe, but they were both very good.
 

AlwaysGreen

Post Whore
Messages
51,630
You could substitute anyone of those listed openers to partner Ponsford. Based purely on reputation I could take Hayden out of my side and replace him with Trumper who was seen as the best player of his era and until Bradman came along the best Australian batsmen ever. But having never seen him play it's most impossible to judge.
 

undertaker

Coach
Messages
11,079
You could substitute anyone of those listed openers to partner Ponsford. Based purely on reputation I could take Hayden out of my side and replace him with Trumper who was seen as the best player of his era and until Bradman came along the best Australian batsmen ever. But having never seen him play it's most impossible to judge.

So, who do you think is qualified to make a judgement on the best players during the late 1800s/early 1900s? Someone like Benaud, who is 81 yrs old and has seen several generations of players (even Bradman)? I know we have statistics, but some of the bowlers from that era have very low averages, only played against 2 or 3 countries etc.
 

AlwaysGreen

Post Whore
Messages
51,630
I think Turner was probably a better batsman than Crowe, but they were both very good.

Crowe was technically very good but I'd have Turner ahead of him as well. Hadlee was a marvel, he took 9/52 against Australia at the gabba in 1985/86 and followed it up with 6 more wickets in the 2nd innings. Subtle swing and nip and as a smart a bowler as they come, the cheat Muhammad Asif is the closest modern bowler in style and smarts. Without Hadlee in the 80's NZ would have been nothing. His batting was handy too, of the 4 great allrounders of the 80's he was probably the weakest batsmen but the strongest bowler.
 

beads6

First Grade
Messages
6,162
Shane Bond gives me a hard on.... It is a real shame he couldn't stay injury free. At his best he was as good as anyone I have seen.
 

AlwaysGreen

Post Whore
Messages
51,630
So, who do you think is qualified to make a judgement on the best players during the late 1800s/early 1900s? Someone like Benaud, who is 81 yrs old and has seen several generations of players (even Bradman)? I know we have statistics, but some of the bowlers from that era have very low averages, only played against 2 or 3 countries etc.

You're right, Statistics can only tell us so much, by memory Trumper only averaged in the low 30s but played on wet pitches, without protection and toothpick bats. The modern batsmen has a huge advantage with the modern bats and helmets. I remember wishing AB to retire in the 90s before his average dipped below 50 so that he could join the select group of players (10 at the time) with 6000+ runs at an average of 50+. Now there are probably 20-30 players in that group.
Back to your question, someone like Benaud would be a good judge, not just an excellent cricketer but a journalist who has probably covered more cricket than anyone. I think Richie has said that Warne was the best spinner he saw and Miller the best cricketer. Cricket writers from the 20s - 60s who understood the game and had no bias are good sources of info to judge players.
 
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lockyno1

Post Whore
Messages
53,425
1. Victor Trumper
2. Bill Ponsford
3. Bradman (c)
4. Ponting
5. Border
6. Keith Miller
7. Gilchrist (vc)
8. Alan Davinson
9. Warne
10. Lillee
11. McGrath

12th Greg Chappell
 

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