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2nd Test: New Zealand v Australia at Christchurch on Feb 20-24, 2016

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,725
Think all things Clarke was wearing a little thin with the team, they look a far more happy and settled unit. Clarke was great tactically but was hardly a great leader of men. While Smith looks to be respected from all the playing group.


Was hoping an Aussie would agree, Clarke seemed a protected species, but it looks so obvious they're better without him - even now he's scrambling around trying to be the centre of media attention

Smith has been great for such a young captain
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Pretty clear now we've slipped quite a lot - the addition of Guptill and absence of Taylor, plus Boult's injury - but Australia have improved immensely since the Ashes - thing the absence of the Clarke sideshow is a part of that, and that Smith is clearly a better leader

I'd love a selection shakeup and the return of a good bowling coach - and a test lineup of:

Latham
Smith
Williamson
Taylor
TBA - perhaps Ryder, or else Nicholls or Young
Neesham (he offers more and has done more with the bat than Anderson)
Watling
Santner (needs to improve his bowling)
Wagner
Southee
Boult

12th Henry

Henry needs to do more to push someone out

I reckon that is close, but Neesham cannot play spin in spin friendly conditions. It is not all India and Sri Lanka touring on NZ's green grass. And we tour India this year.

Further Henry has had 4 tests now, failed in all. Nuttall deserves a test in Africa, so I would go something like this:

Latham
Smith/Raval/Guptill
Williamson (7)
Taylor
Ryder (5)
Munro/Bruce/Young (in that order due to bowling) (6)
Watling
Santner (4)
Wagner (3)
Nuttall (2)
Southee/Boult (1)

The lack of results for Southee and Boult means that they are no longer to be treated as royalty. Boult has averaged 38.65 this summer. That is nowhere near good enough - especially with his 5 for 60 at Adelaide bringing down his stats. Southee a slightly more respectable 35.57.

Boult just does not look dangerous without swing. He looks ordinary. If Patto and Hazelwood can get some shape, and then a huge amount of reverse, Boult looks pop gun with his straight ball efforts.

Obviously if Nuttal does nothing in Zimbabwe, his place goes back to Southee or Boult before Safrica. But it sends a message to the bowlers. Wagner must have locked down the third seamer role for Africa on the back of his past few tests.

Nicholls has played 4 test innings, and driven one ball in the V for 4 runs. That is it.

He has been out driving horrifically at least twice.

He cannot bat in the top 4 without driving well. This is test cricket ffs. He has a great cut shot, and a good pull shot, plays the sweep well, but if he cannot cash in on seam bowlers overpitching, he will be starved for runs when teams catch on to him.
 
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Meth

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
35,737
Poor taste on my part given the timing - we'd all prefer rain

Nobody wants to see more quakes

No worries at this end. We're not sensitive about aftershocks- not all of us at least
 

Pete Cash

Post Whore
Messages
62,165
Think all things Clarke was wearing a little thin with the team, they look a far more happy and settled unit. Clarke was great tactically but was hardly a great leader of men. While Smith looks to be respected from all the playing group.

Yeah i was going to say that the other day when jidge brought this up. Im not going to bag clarke out because well everyone likes to have a little dig but he was clearly not the best man manager from all reports. I hope Smith becomes tactically as good though.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
Boult? You mean last year.

Wagner has been our best in tests this summer.

Boult last year was world class. This year he's well down, but he's still picked up a few wickets. Southee on the other hand looks dreadfully short of pace. And his batting is awful. He should be moved to #11, if as much for the ego control.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Boult last year was world class.
Until he left England injured.

This year he's well down, but he's still picked up a few wickets. Southee on the other hand looks dreadfully short of pace. And his batting is awful. He should be moved to #11, if as much for the ego control.

I've been saying since England, if not before, that Southee should be batting #11, so you'll get no disagreement from me there.

Boult has 23 wickets this summer for heaps of runs at 38.5, Southee has 21 wickets for less runs at 35.5.

They both need a kick up the butt. But Boult's decline I find harder to stomach, because he looked the much superior bowler that could take the team further. Boult's peak was much better than Southee's peak.

Boult cannot carry on averaging 38.5 (where he cashed in with 5-60 and match figures of 7-101 at Adelaide) and expect to remain in the side. Southee, too I wish was one the one to make way for a Nuttall trial and that Boult was playing well.

But they've both gone to garbage. Boult more so in my opinion by losing his swing. He can stay in the rotation ODI side, but he is a passenger in the test side this summer. If Boult cannot swing, he is not threatening in test cricket. That is the reality. I pray he finds his swing in the fourth innings. But I've been hoping every single game this summer (Adelaide got my hopes up).

And noone talks about it, but heading into Australia, Craig looked to be a far better bowling prospect that this summer has given him. That is a lot of bowlers heading down hill. Besides young Santner, there is a 3 test tour of India this year.

Bracewell has prvoen he is not test standard. And Henry still has not cut it. Not in England. Not in Australia. And now not at home. Surely they've had enough chances now. Nuttall is the next to be trialled. Has to be. And he deserves a run in Zimbabwe at the expense of either Boult (if still not swinging) or Southee.

Wagner, though, head and shoulders the best test bowler of the summer. Has shut the door on the third seamer role competitors. Never should have lost it to Bracewell last summer (but Henry deserved his trials). Bracewell has not kicked on to be a bowling allrounder. So by rights, after Sri Lanka twice, and now Australia, Wagner is the #3 test seamer. Noone is fitter, keener or more effective than him for the 3rd seamer role. He may be a late bloomer, but appears to be blooming nicely.
 
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JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,725
Yeah i was going to say that the other day when jidge brought this up. Im not going to bag clarke out because well everyone likes to have a little dig but he was clearly not the best man manager from all reports. I hope Smith becomes tactically as good though.

Why does everyone think Clarke was 'tactically' so good? Serious question - if the captain's going to get credit for it all, Smith's been tactically brilliant here - they've kept one of the best players in the world in check...

I'll have a dig, Clarke's a bit of a myth - clearly a world class bat, but also a world class media manipulator, and not by any stretch a good leader - ergo, not a good captain...

Smith is, he's very good - for the life of me I can't work out how he scores like he does, but neither can opposition coaches/captains yet - he's an impressive character
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Why does everyone think Clarke was 'tactically' so good? Serious question - if the captain's going to get credit for it all, Smith's been tactically brilliant here - they've kept one of the best players in the world in check...

I'll have a dig, Clarke's a bit of a myth - clearly a world class bat, but also a world class media manipulator, and not by any stretch a good leader - ergo, not a good captain...

Smith is, he's very good - for the life of me I can't work out how he scores like he does, but neither can opposition coaches/captains yet - he's an impressive character

Confidence in his bloody good hand eye coordination clipping off his pads. If he gets past Amir, then it would appear only age will prevent him wandering in front of his stumps as he feels like it. It is very rarely aerial when he clips square, can be aerial down to fine leg at times, but a leg gully is a bit of a gamble of a field placement for him nevertheless.

By wandering accross to off stump, he clips to prevent lbw and bowled, and then can leave wider balls as he feels like it knowing the ball will miss his stumps. He also forces the bowler to bowl wider to him if they want to nick him out, meaning the seam nip back in from what would normally be an off stump line does not make him an automatic lbw when he misses it as the bowler is bowling wider of the stumps.

It is pretty clever batting as long as he can continue to clip the ball on his pads away.
 
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vvvrulz

Coach
Messages
13,625
Boult last year was world class. This year he's well down, but he's still picked up a few wickets. Southee on the other hand looks dreadfully short of pace. And his batting is awful. He should be moved to #11, if as much for the ego control.

Southee really seems to be a head case, it's no coincidence his best came when he had Allan Donald and Shane Bond in his ear. Boult in comparison is well below what he was but is at least appearing to put in. Southee is atrocious and seems pretty happy to just coast along on bottom gear.

I do hope Wagner finally gets the extended run he deserves as our third seamer.

We're being taught a real lesson here, at home.

I fear that with McCullum's captaincy departing, our bowlers looking wasted, our batting looking mostly clueless, I fear we've already peaked in our test game.
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
15,595
Before this series I thought we were close - this series has shown we're not, conclusively

Still hopeful we'll put up a fight here - but only 2 wickets left

Do you mind me asking why you thought the teams were close prior to this series?

Is Aus better, NZ worse or both?
 

vvvrulz

Coach
Messages
13,625
Wagner, though, head and shoulders the best test bowler of the summer. Has shut the door on the third seamer role competitors. Never should have lost it to Bracewell last summer (but Henry deserved his trials). Bracewell has not kicked on to be a bowling allrounder. So by rights, after Sri Lanka twice, and now Australia, Wagner is the #3 test seamer. Noone is fitter, keener or more effective than him for the 3rd seamer role. He may be a late bloomer, but appears to be blooming nicely.

Wagner has been the shizz since he started out.

What he lacks in bowling skill he makes up for with just pure guts, nobody in our team has bowls their ass off like Wagner in the Hesson era. Southee would be twice the bowler if he put in as much effort.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
103,536
Why does everyone think Clarke was 'tactically' so good? Serious question - if the captain's going to get credit for it all, Smith's been tactically brilliant here - they've kept one of the best players in the world in check...

I'll have a dig, Clarke's a bit of a myth - clearly a world class bat, but also a world class media manipulator, and not by any stretch a good leader - ergo, not a good captain...

Smith is, he's very good - for the life of me I can't work out how he scores like he does, but neither can opposition coaches/captains yet - he's an impressive character

I can't agree. Look, I'm a Clarke fan. I'm also a captain. Clearly not an international captain, but nonetheless I've won a premiership and come from second last into the finals in 2 of my 3 seasons at the job. Maybe the Clarke fan in me means that I have a bias, as much as those who aren't Clarke fans clearly do.

Clarke, tactically, was the best in the world during his captaincy. My only gripe would be he underrated both part time bowlers and himself, even when he was fit. I don't necessarily agree with the poor man manager part either. I think that Clarke watched what happened under Ponting very closely, and made a decision that as a captain he wouldn't make the mistake of being everyones mate and continuing the boys club that was the Aussie side. There were a probably a few of the boys club (notably Katich and Hayden, two of the biggest tossers in Aussie cricket and major boys club members) who were shitty about that, but it made the side better as a whole. I think a lot of the "poor people person" came from that fracturing of the buddies club more than his management skills. That said, no question he was not a personality everyone was drawn to, but how rare is that kind of person?

Smith could be even better, but that shouldn't detract from Clarke as a captain and he's clearly learned a lot from Clarke as well.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
103,536
Confidence in his bloody good hand eye coordination clipping off his pads. If he gets past Amir, then it would appear only age will prevent him wandering in front of his stumps as he feels like it. It is very rarely aerial when he clips square, can be aerial down to fine leg at times, but a leg gully is a bit of a gamble of a field placement for him nevertheless.

By wandering accross to off stump, he clips to prevent lbw and bowled, and then can leave wider balls as he feels like it knowing the ball will miss his stumps. He also forces the bowler to bowl wider to him if they want to nick him out, meaning the seam nip back in from what would normally be an off stump line does not make him an automatic lbw when he misses it as the bowler is bowling wider of the stumps.

It is pretty clever batting as long as he can continue to clip the ball on his pads away.

He plays late. That's the key. Modern batsmen want to hit and go hard at the bowler. Smith plays very, very late. He waits for the ball in an era where that is a rarity
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
Wagner has been the shizz since he started out.

This is not true at all. Many of us waited for his eligibility time to be done as he cleaned up in FC only to be greeted with horrible returns in his first 3 to 6 tests. Even after 8 tests his average was still north of 41. He has gotten better over time because he bowls to a field. Miraculous for a NZ bowler. Should never have been dropped for Bracewell last summer but Henry earnt his trials in the test team. The first 2 anyway. After SL this summer it was harsh to drop Wagner. No excuses moving forward now. Wagner has proven his immense worth.

What he lacks in bowling skill he makes up for with just pure guts, nobody in our team has bowls their ass off like Wagner in the Hesson era. Southee would be twice the bowler if he put in as much effort.

Wagner is a lion hearted fit bowler who can bowl more donkey work overs than Tim and Trent. That is fine, save show ponies for the new ball. I continue to rate Wagner highly, I reckon with him as a third seamer, and a spinner, then a #6 can be more of a batting role if not Ryder.

Nuttall deserves a trial against ZImbabwe in place of Boult or Southee. If Boult aint swinging it, he needs the wake up call. If he is, then Tim gets the wake up call. Either way, Wagner should be a lock as third seamer ahead of anyone else in Africa.

Does Tim need to act like Mitchell Starc to stop the Shane Warne criticism of his playing appearance when bowling?
 
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ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
He plays late. That's the key. Modern batsmen want to hit and go hard at the bowler. Smith plays very, very late. He waits for the ball in an era where that is a rarity

Smith may play late on the off side, but only someone like Guptill would look to clip off his pads early. :p
 

Bazal

Post Whore
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103,536
Smith may play late on the off side, but only someone like Guptill would look to clip off his pads early. :p

He plays later than the norm regardless. Watch how late he plays those clips off his pads...yeah, it's a late shot by definition, but he's got quick hands and he waits so long
 

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