Another pointless Rugby Thread

[Whatwhere]

Ben Te'o was eligible for New Zealand, Samoa, Ireland, England and Australia.

Eligibility is currently a hot topic for the Ra Ra's. Reading the BBC comments section for the Aus V Eng game and it is full of English slagging Wales and Scotland for taking their discards and everyone throwing mud at England and Aus for having a large number of PI players.

The main problem with Union eligibility laws is that they lock you in for life. There are countless players like Eto Nabuli, he was born and grew up in Fiji, played a couple of games for the Wallabies, they dont pick him anymore, and so is lost to international rugby despite the fact Fiji would love to have him in their squad.

Then in Australia's case they are woefully misinformed. Of the 14 guys of PI heritage in the squad 10 of them were either born here or moved here as infants.

 

[taste2taste]

Well, the vast majority of the Fijian side that beat the French were born and developed in Fiji while all but a handful of the Fijian squad from last year's RLWC were actually born and raised in Australia.

You were an expert a few posts ago with the exact % of each team when it suited your argument, now that it suits your argument you're a bit forgetful with the figures "the vast majority'" "all but a handful"

 

[Whatwhere]

You were an expert a few posts ago with the exact % of each team when it suited your argument, now that it suits your argument you're a bit forgetful with the figures "the vast majority'" "all but a handful"

You want figures. Fine. Of the 30 players in the 2018 touring squad 2 of the 30 were born and raised outside Fiji. That equates to roughly 6.5% of the team while in the RLWC only 9 of the squad were born outside of Australia with one of the 9 being born in NZ. Only 33% of the squad were Fijian born and raised.

Similar story for both Samoa and Tonga. Only two of the Samoan squad were actually born in Samoa. With the rest being a mix of Australian and NZ born and raised. Same for Tonga.

 

[Force]

Oh okay but Fiji union beating a French team that this year reached the lowest ranking in their history is reaching 'heights' that the league team hasn't?

International Rugby is more competitive than the league counterpart. When International league is up there then the victories will hold more weight.

 

[Force]

Ben Te'o was eligible for New Zealand, Samoa, Ireland, England and Australia. Bit of a joke right ?

Eligibility is currently a hot topic for the Ra Ra's. Reading the BBC comments section for the Aus V Eng game and it is full of English slagging Wales and Scotland for taking their discards and everyone throwing mud at England and Aus for having a large number of PI players.

One of Unions eligibility flaws is that they lock you in for life. There are countless players like Eto Nabuli, he was born and grew up in Fiji, played 1 game for the Wallabies, they dont pick him anymore, and so is lost to international rugby despite the fact Fiji would love to have him in their squad. I know the Ra Ra's are very proud of the 1 country law but it gives the islands no chance of seriously competing because they'll always loose thier best players to NZ or Australia.

Many guys are eligible for more than one Country. Eto Nabuli will struggle to make the Fijian team given the caliber of their outsides.

The 1 Country law rule went out the window once Rugby Sevens was re-introduced to the Olympics. You can now switch Countries but you have to play a certain number of Sevens games for your new Country before you can play in the 15's team.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

International Rugby is more competitive than the league counterpart. When International league is up there then the victories will hold more weight.

And you decided that for everyone huh.

 

[Whatwhere]

Many guys are eligible for more than one Country. Eto Nabuli will struggle to make the Fijian team given the caliber of their outsides.

The 1 Country law rule went out the window once Rugby Sevens was re-introduced to the Olympics. You can now switch Countries but you have to play a certain number of Sevens games for your new Country before you can play in the 15's team.

You also need to possess a passport from that nation. Olympic rules.

 

[Whatwhere]

And you decided that for everyone huh.

As a general rule. Yes, international Rugby is more competitive than international League.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Not what he was talking about, he was talking what Fiji had done in both codes yet Unions is better for some reason. Anyway, not going to argue as the uncle tom of the international section has all under control.

 

[Force]

And you decided that for everyone huh.

International union is more competitive than league.

Oops...Someone else said it before me.

 

[Force]

Not what he was talking about, he was talking what Fiji had done in both codes yet Unions is better for some reason. Anyway, not going to argue as the uncle tom of the international section has all under control.

It is what I meant.....harder to get a win in Union than league as International Union is more competitive than league.

 

[Whatwhere]

It is what I meant.....harder to get a win in Union than league as International Union is more competitive than league.

Thanks largely to over 30 years and the better part of $1b of direct investment. Not to mention all the man hours and personal investment from many volunteers supplementing that investment across many nations.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

It is what I meant.....harder to get a win in Union than league as International Union is more competitive than league.

Depends which team you are. Ask Samoa, PNG, France and Wales how hard it is to get a win against the big 3. Ask England how hard it is to beat the Kangaroos. It is all relative. Fiji would find it hard against the big boys in both codes and their Union win against a French team going through a rough patch is about the same as the Fiji League win against a Kiwi team going through a rough patch. It is all relative.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

You want figures. Fine. Of the 30 players in the 2018 touring squad 2 of the 30 were born and raised outside Fiji. That equates to roughly 6.5% of the team while in the RLWC only 9 of the squad were born outside of Australia with one of the 9 being born in NZ. Only 33% of the squad were Fijian born and raised.

Similar story for both Samoa and Tonga. Only two of the Samoan squad were actually born in Samoa. With the rest being a mix of Australian and NZ born and raised. Same for Tonga.

Tongan RL Est 1986 - Tongan RU Est 1923
Samoan RL Est 1986 - Samoan RL Est 1924
Fiji RL Est 1992 - Fiji RU Est 1913

If I were in charge of RU I would be very worried about RL in the pacific, give us another 20 years and union's domination in those countries will be over.

 

[Whatwhere]

Depends which team you are. Ask Samoa, PNG, France and Wales how hard it is to get a win against the big 3. Ask England how hard it is to beat the Kangaroos. It is all relative. Fiji would find it hard against the big boys in both codes and their Union win against a French team going through a rough patch is about the same as the Fiji League win against a Kiwi team going through a rough patch. It is all relative.

In the case of Tonga and Samoa playing teams that aren't quite performing and getting the win is largely true but Fiji are a whole other kettle of fish. They tend to be a team that needs a few weeks together to gel but once they do they have the ability to find the happy medium of structure and flair that makes them a very dangerous side to face at any time. The issue is, generally speaking they don't get that time. Though that is changing.

 

[Whatwhere]

Tongan RL Est 1986 - Tongan RU Est 1923
Samoan RL Est 1986 - Samoan RL Est 1924
Fiji RL Est 1992 - Fiji RU Est 1913

If I were in charge of RU I would be very worried about RL in the pacific, give us another 20 years and union's domination in those countries will be over.

Doubtful. I'm not saying RL won't grow in the region but I think you are falling into the same trap many do when viewing the region from a code by code perspective. First of all, most PI players I've encountered actually from the Islands are more than happy to play and support both. The same Rugby vs League thing doesn't really exist there. It's about opportunity. They opportunity to earn a living and support their families. So from an opportunity stand point it makes no sense for any PI player from the Islands to categorically pigeonhole themselves to playing one or another. It limits their opportunity.

If a player only plays League they restrict themselves to 2.5 (the .5 are the Warriors as they are the only pro League team in NZ) nations where they can earn a living. While if they also play Rugby they can add another 7 potentially more in coming years. Heck, if Andrew Forrest manages to get his GRR (terrible name) concept bedded down and considering it actually has a team from both Fiji and Samoa already committed plus a supposed Hawaiian team that will be sourcing its talent from the Islands (and potentially the AP Dragons out of Singapore doing the same) PI players may have the opportunity to stay home and earn in the future.

But my comment is more related to looking at where the majority of the players from each nations are born and raised. And that's not likely to change in the next 20 years. Mainly thanks to the lack of infrastructure in place. They source players from both Aus and NZ because that's where the best systems are in place. And to compete that's where you have to look.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Doubtful. I'm not saying RL won't grow in the region but I think you are falling into the same trap many do when viewing the region from a code by code perspective. First of all, most PI players I've encountered actually from the Islands are more than happy to play and support both. The same Rugby vs League thing doesn't really exist there. It's about opportunity. They opportunity to earn a living and support their families. So from an opportunity stand point it makes no sense for any PI player from the Islands to categorically pigeonhole themselves to playing one or another. It limits their opportunity.

If a player only plays League they restrict themselves to 2.5 (the .5 are the Warriors as they are the only pro League team in NZ) nations where they can earn a living. While if they also play Rugby they can add another 7 potentially more in coming years. Heck, if Andrew Forrest manages to get his GRR (terrible name) concept bedded down and considering it actually has a team from both Fiji and Samoa already committed plus a supposed Hawaiian team that will be sourcing its talent from the Islands (and potentially the AP Dragons out of Singapore doing the same) PI players may have the opportunity to stay home and earn in the future.

But my comment is more related to looking at where the majority of the players from each nations are born and raised. And that's not likely to change in the next 20 years. Mainly thanks to the lack of infrastructure in place. They source players from both Aus and NZ because that's where the best systems are in place. And to compete that's where you have to look.

I can see your point. I'm not sure what you mean by 2.5 and 7 though.

The NRL has only recently launched their Pacific Strategy which gives opportunity to players in the Pacific as well as assists the NRL with player numbers and talent. PNG Hunters are in their infancy and will be followed shortly by Fiji. The Pacific tests are only the beginning, the NRL will setup academies in each country. So I see where you are coming from, from an opportunity point of view but the league version of all of these nations will be made up of genuine superstars of the NRL - the top rugby comp in the world. The Union versions are not be filled with superstars. Which would the people gravitate to? Look at the current superstar Tonga side - it is a glimpse into the future. The PI RL national teams have more likelihood of providing national glory (Fiji 7s aside) than the RU national teams.

 

[Whatwhere]

I can see your point. I'm not sure what you mean by 2.5 and 7 though.

The NRL has only recently launched their Pacific Strategy which gives opportunity to players in the Pacific as well as assists the NRL with player numbers and talent. PNG Hunters are in their infancy and will be followed shortly by Fiji. The Pacific tests are only the beginning, the NRL will setup academies in each country. So I see where you are coming from, from an opportunity point of view but the league version of all of these nations will be made up of genuine superstars of the NRL - the top rugby comp in the world. The Union versions are not be filled with superstars. Which would the people gravitate to? Look at the current superstar Tonga side - it is a glimpse into the future. The PI RL national teams have more likelihood of providing national glory (Fiji 7s aside) than the RU national teams.

The 2.5 and 7 relate to nations where they can go to earn. It should be 3.5 as they could in theory play in France in the system below the Dragons. But I put NZ as .5 because they only really have the Warriors so the opportunity for PI based players is more limited. The 7 was nations they could earn a living in Europe from Rugby. I didn't include Major League Rugby in Nth America or any of the SANZAAR nations as they have a primacy on developing talent for their national teams. Though I did forget Japan.

The NRL academies are good and all but it's not like those structures aren't already in place from the Rugby perspective. Hell, several of the French Top 14 clubs have their own academy and scouting networks already in place. Then there's World Rugby's combine initiative that is designed directly to identify talent and find contracts for them. Contrary to what many may want to believe there is a fair bit of direct investment over the respective 4 year cycles that go into the PI nations.This current cycle saw over $50m AUD designated to it.

As for stars. You're looking at this in the very narrow NRL perspective. Every one of the Fijian team that beat France last weekend is as big a name as Semi Radradra in Fiji. The world is bigger than just the NRL.

And none of this even takes into account the growing interest from American Football in the region.

 

[Stallion]

The 2.5 and 7 relate to nations where they can go to earn. It should be 3.5 as they could in theory play in France in the system below the Dragons. But I put NZ as .5 because they only really have the Warriors so the opportunity for PI based players is more limited. The 7 was nations they could earn a living in Europe from Rugby. I didn't include Major League Rugby in Nth America or any of the SANZAAR nations as they have a primacy on developing talent for their national teams. Though I did forget Japan.

The NRL academies are good and all but it's not like those structures aren't already in place from the Rugby perspective. Hell, several of the French Top 14 clubs have their own academy and scouting networks already in place. Then there's World Rugby's combine initiative that is designed directly to identify talent and find contracts for them. Contrary to what many may want to believe there is a fair bit of direct investment over the respective 4 year cycles that go into the PI nations.This current cycle saw over $50m AUD designated to it.

As for stars. You're looking at this in the very narrow NRL perspective. Every one of the Fijian team that beat France last weekend is as big a name as Semi Radradra in Fiji. The world is bigger than just the NRL.

And none of this even takes into account the growing interest from American Football in the region.

As referred to before the NRL is the most popular domestic rugby competition in the world bar anywhere or any type! Think that matters significantly as an attraction for players.

 

[Whatwhere]

As referred to before the NRL is the most popular domestic rugby competition in the world bar anywhere or any type! Think that matters significantly as an attraction for players.

And the AFL is one of the most popular sporting leagues of any kind, anywhere based on attendance. But we all know that isn't in fact the case. It's just popular in one country but so much so that it tends to inflate the numbers. Similar for the NRL.