Axed coach's $900K windfall

[BD5733]

If you win an origin series....it is a great indication that a coach has great credentials.

If you lose an origin series.....it means nothing. And hardly means that a coach is useless.

Using tennis as an example. Someone can win a major and that is seen as a huge success. But if that same player loses a major, its not seen as a huge failure. Just that someone else was better.

Back to NRL, we dont have 1 good coach and 14 bad coaches each year. We just have 1 coach who it worked out for and 14 coaches who it didnt work out for.

If a coach consistently falls towards the back end of the 14 coaches who it didnt work out for, only then can you question his credentials.

Hagan has won a premiership, made the finals twice and this season came last. His stats are more positive than negative.

Same with Smith, sure he has never won a premiership. But he has consitently fallen near the top of the pile of coaches who it hasnt worked out for. And that, in my books, makes him a great coach also.

 

[ParraDude_Jay]

Yeah, that last pass that should have been throw. That knock on when he should have scored. Missed field goal. Missed tackle. He just can't get a team over the line.

What about bad gameplans that revolve completely around one injury prone player?

And stupid selection that should never have happened? Look at this bloke's team selections (another fear of mine). Morris on the wing, Sean Rudder as a halfback, continuous attempts to make Matt Gidley a 5/8th and not giving up when it fails, George Carmont, Craig Hall, Anthony Quinn and Josh Perry. Then there's his favourites who he won't accept are past it like Matt Gidley (again) and Mark Hughes, whilst leaving talented youngsters like Tighe in reserve grade.

The guy hasn't proven he is a bad coach either.

His record speaks for itself, the Knights have gone downhill every year since 2001, what does that say to you?

Who said you didn't have a right?

Well the fact that people are ignoring his failed Origin record and the wooden spoon, and basically saying they're irrelevant says to me in a nice way that I don't have a right to disagree.

 

[BD5733]

PDJ,

Out of interest.....how do you rate Ricky Stuart as a coach?

 

[ParraDude_Jay]

PDJ,

Out of interest.....how do you rate Ricky Stuart as a coach?

I rate him as just ok. Fittler's retirement has shown he's not as good as some people would have you believe. He's great for Origin because he's passionate about it, but I wouldn't want him at the Eels, put it that way.

Is the relevance here that he won a premiership in his first year aswell?

 

[Hurriflatch]

What about bad gameplans that revolve completely around one injury prone player?

Brisbane don't go as well when Lockyer is out so does that mean Bennett can't coach
Roosters suck when Fittler is out so does that mean Gould can't coach

And stupid selection that should never have happened? Look at this bloke's team selections (another fear of mine). Morris on the wing, Sean Rudder as a halfback, continuous attempts to make Matt Gidley a 5/8th and not giving up when it fails, George Carmont, Craig Hall, Anthony Quinn and Josh Perry. Then there's his favourites who he won't accept are past it like Matt Gidley (again) and Mark Hughes, whilst leaving talented youngsters like Tighe in reserve grade.

While I'll agree with you on M.Gidley the moves of Morris and Rudder were due to injury.

Brian Smith also plays favourites in fact all coaches do.

His record speaks for itself, the Knights have gone downhill every year since 2001, what does that say to you?

2002, 2003 and 2004 Parra were heading in the same direction

Well the fact that people are ignoring his failed Origin record and the wooden spoon, and basically saying they're irrelevant says to me in a nice way that I don't have a right to disagree.

Well if thats the case then you saying the Kn ights winning the comp in 2001 means nothing is a nice way of saying no one else can disagree with you.

 

[BD5733]

Yes, with a team that he inherited (even though I don't believe you can just 'inherit' a premiership winning team)

And since, the roosters have not improved.

2003: GF loss
2004: GF loss
2005: Didn't make semis.

 

[BD5733]

On Hagan's streak of bringing his team down each year.............at least he can guarantee that the streak will break this coming season.

 

[Macca_]

What about bad gameplans that revolve completely around one injury prone player?

What coach wouldn't base a game plan around the worlds best player?

And stupid selection that should never have happened? Look at this bloke's team selections (another fear of mine). Morris on the wing, Sean Rudder as a halfback, continuous attempts to make Matt Gidley a 5/8th and not giving up when it fails, George Carmont, Craig Hall, Anthony Quinn and Josh Perry. Then there's his favourites who he won't accept are past it like Matt Gidley (again) and Mark Hughes, whilst leaving talented youngsters like Tighe in reserve grade.

What coach hasn't toyed around with players positions and got it wrong? And some of those were forced upon them becuase of injuries. All coaches have their favourites too.

His record speaks for itself, the Knights have gone downhill every year since 2001, what does that say to you

Nothing to do with the playing roster at Newcastle? Aging stars, injured stars. Lack of money to pay more stars etc. Hardly all down to the bad coach Hagan.

Well the fact that people are ignoring his failed Origin record and the wooden spoon, and basically saying they're irrelevant says to me in a nice way that I don't have a right to disagree.

To much reading into what people are saying I think... It's not that those things are being ignored. But there is more to them then just a stat.

 

[Pazza]

I think Hagan will win it for us in 2007.

Why?

Cause he has a more experianced Tim Smith at his displosal, he is the next big super star play maker in the game so a Monkey in a space suit should be able to coach this team to glory.

 

[Eelementary]

I think a coach, secretly, would much rather coach his club side than a representative side.

Why?

Well, in a club side you can Kiwis, Russians, Poms, Aussies, Islanders, etc. But in Australian rep teams, players of the calibre of Marshall, Moi Moi, Carney, etc. cannot play.

Good coaches may look bad at rep level for that same reason - they are accustomed to coaching their club side, where they have the best of the entire rugby league world.

And to stop pointing out the spoon would be ridiculous. True, there were circumstances - but if he had such a good eye for talent and such a good coaching brain, he should have been able to avoid winning the spoon, surely?

 

[Macca_]

And to stop pointing out the spoon would be ridiculous. True, there were circumstances - but if he had such a good eye for talent and such a good coaching brain, he should have been able to avoid winning the spoon, surely?

If only it were that easy though...

When you have so many of your top 25 out at various stages it's hard to get consistancy with the squad etc etc.

Not sure about the eye for talent... Had Parra had the kind of injuries to key players like Newcastle had, would our kids and reggies got anywhere near the minor premiership. Newcastles problem is that they rely to much on a few key players. I'd bet that Parra wouldn't have finished 1st, but probably still made the 8 missing players like that. Parra with the advantage of having a lot more options unlike what Newcastle had. You have to play the cards you're dealt.

Hagan won't have that problem at Parra.

A good coaching brain don't mean nothing if you don't have the cattle to work with. Some would say it means nothing even if you do have the cattle (B Smith).

 

[Eelementary]

You guys make sense.

But there is just something about Hagan that I don't like.

To be honest, I cannot see us doing well under him.

If he joins us, I will staunchly support him - because he wanst the same thing we all do. But I would rather not have him. At least at this stage...

 

[Pazza]

We haven't done that well under Smith. So i really dont understand why everyone is flipping out. Im really doubting that everything is going to go down hill in a hurry.

Hagan has proven he can get his men in the right frame of mind for the big games. Smith has coached the side to one too many chokes. Its not the players faults for the chokes cause the 1998 team, 2001 and 2005 sides roster wise were totally different but totally folded when it counted. The only consistancy was they were coached by BS. Quite frankly i am happy with have moved on, 3 years too late IMO and i will welcome Hagan with open arms.

With the roster we have and the juniours i think that Hagan has a very good shot of winning it for us.

 

[yy_cheng]

I didn't like Hagan when he played for the Dogs and so I don't have the respect for him as a coach. It is probably a bit naive but that is how I feel and it's hard to shake.

The other thing that bugs me which has nothing to do with Hagan is that I feel it's a bit of a slap in the face to JT.

However, whoever gets the job, if Parra thrives, then of course I would be happy.

 

[ParraDude_Jay]

What coach wouldn't base a game plan around the worlds best player?

Key word was COMPLETELY. Johns had to do everything for Newcastle, Hagan's gameplans never involved Gidley taking control to catch the other team off guard. Shut down Johns and you shut down the Knights, because Hagan has nothing without him.

What coach hasn't toyed around with players positions and got it wrong? And some of those were forced upon them becuase of injuries. All coaches have their favourites too.

When they get it wrong though, they're supposed to stop doing it. Hagan went on with his experiments as if they were working when they were clearly failures.

Nothing to do with the playing roster at Newcastle? Aging stars, injured stars. Lack of money to pay more stars etc. Hardly all down to the bad coach Hagan.

Their playing rosters of 2002 and 2003 were superior to the one of 2001. Guys like Tahu, Buderus, Perry and Abraham had gained rep experience, and were all GF winners so they were now experienced on the big stage aswell. And most importantly, the players they'd lost weren't that good anyway and were replaced by younger and better ones.

In fact their side in 2003 had only lost from the 2001 side; Peden, who was replaced by Abraham who was playing great footy, and a couple of ordinary bench fowards in O'Brien and Marquet. You could probably add Morris there but he wasn't an important part of their team in 01/02.

How can you blame player retention, money or age for their slide, on a side that was still relatively young and was so similar to the one that thrashed us in 2001? Either Hagan wasn't coaching them well, or it exposed the fact that it was actually Joey doing all the work and making Hagan look good.

To much reading into what people are saying I think... It's not that those things are being ignored. But there is more to them then just a stat.

This is pretty hypocritical I must say. Hagan wins a premiership, it goes on the record as a positive for him, he wins the wooden spoon but that's not a negative? Same with Origin, he wins an Origin and that would have been something people would be bringing up to support his appointment, but he loses 2 consecutive series', including 2 thrashings in deciders, and that's not a negative either?

That's a load of BS, no offence intended for you either, just in general it's absolute BS.

If he joins us, I will staunchly support him - because he wanst the same thing we all do. But I would rather not have him. At least at this stage...

I agree 100% on that statement, well said.

 

[Macca_]

Key word was COMPLETELY. Johns had to do everything for Newcastle, Hagan's gameplans never involved Gidley taking control to catch the other team off guard. Shut down Johns and you shut down the Knights, because Hagan has nothing without him.

A problem he won't have at Parra. We have so many more options. He'll be able to use plenty of gameplans and not rely on one player.

When they get it wrong though, they're supposed to stop doing it. Hagan went on with his experiments as if they were working when they were clearly failures.

As I said, you have to play the cards you are dealt and use the cattle that are on deck. If there's no better options, what can you do?

Their playing rosters of 2002 and 2003 were superior to the one of 2001. Guys like Tahu, Buderus, Perry and Abraham had gained rep experience, and were all GF winners so they were now experienced on the big stage aswell. And most importantly, the players they'd lost weren't that good anyway and were replaced by younger and better ones.

In fact their side in 2003 had only lost from the 2001 side; Peden, who was replaced by Abraham who was playing great footy, and a couple of ordinary bench fowards in O'Brien and Marquet. You could probably add Morris there but he wasn't an important part of their team in 01/02.

Fair points. It is always harder to win back to back they say though. Tall poppy syndrome etc.

How can you blame player retention, money or age for their slide, on a side that was still relatively young and was so similar to the one that thrashed us in 2001? Either Hagan wasn't coaching them well, or it exposed the fact that it was actually Joey doing all the work and making Hagan look good.

Once again, it's always the coaches fault. I know this....

This is pretty hypocritical I must say. Hagan wins a premiership, it goes on the record as a positive for him, he wins the wooden spoon but that's not a negative? Same with Origin, he wins an Origin and that would have been something people would be bringing up to support his appointment, but he loses 2 consecutive series', including 2 thrashings in deciders, and that's not a negative either?

As I said, to much reading into what was said. Yes he inherited a good side. That has been acknowledged. But what isn't acknowledged is that you still have to get the job done. Once again, how many good sides has Smith had, how many good sides have not got the job done? Must be the players, not the coach...... Yes he won a spoon, that's been acknowledged, but what isn't acknowledged is the circumstances it was won under. Once again, must be the coach, nothing to do with the players...... Origin is a different kettle of fish. Granted he lost 2 in a row, so what. As someone said Gibbo lost 3-0.

That's a load of BS, no offence intended for you either, just in general it's absolute BS.

:lol: BS? pffft, no offence taken, just your opinion.

 

[stiffmeister]

Seriously, the Parra Bar should sell warm milk for all you people worried about the soon to be announced coach Hagan

 

[Eelementary]

There are vast numbers in both the pro-Hagan and not-so-pro-Hagan camps.

So why is one camp more correct than the other? And why is one camp being singled out as needing warm milk?

IF he becomes our coach, I think you'll find 100% of us will back him and support him.

 

[Stagger eel]

just for the not-so-pro Hagan crew, I'm lead to believe that there's a story in the Newcastle Herald that quotes Joey Johns's opinion on Hagan as a coach, if I can get my hands on it I'm sure it would make for interesting reading. ;-)

 

[Macca_]

Can I ad that I am not necessarily 'pro-Hagan'. Whilst coaching Newcastle I have never been a fan of the man himself. I just don't see some of the negative comments about his past being entirely fair.

It's the old - I don't like it, here's all the negatives vs I do like it, here's all the positives. And with each, normally comes the other, but because a person see's their view point as right, they don't want to hear about the other.

Anyway, you are correct, if he does come to Parra, I'm sure everyone will be behind him 100% (tough luck if you're not I guess..). I just weant to see him given a fair go from the start.