Captain Crisis

[greeneyed]

I'd like to weigh in with my two cents worth on this one.

Firstly I think Bay56, while many disagree with him, makes a lot of sense. (That's not to say I agree with him!) He is the kind of guy every organisation needs - he wants the Raiders to stay on the ball and not fall behind the pack. As do all of us.

That said, I'm not ready to hunt Elliott down with a flame thrower yet (in reference to a post on the debate page). I think he, and management, have turned the place around since they came in in early 2002. When they came in we were 1-7, bottom of the table and playing absolutely sh*t with a lot of internal turmoil. If they had kept that up even *I* would be sounding like Bay56. But since the broom went through they had a reasonable end to 2002, a great 2003 and a downturn in 04. But what is important is, IMO, the club is on the right track.

Sure, they erred with the retention policy this year and not signing anyone last yr. But they had faith in the crop of kids we had.

It didn't work out. Thats footy. But in becoming aggressive in the market - Ale, Withers, Frawley, Smith, Adamson, the Howells, Goodwin - they have learnt from their mistake. Smith and Adamson might be gambles but they have had a go - we wont die wondering. Similarly having Boxhead in a recruiting role is a big positive.

I'm actually incredibly excited about 05 as I think we are going to prove a lot of people wrong.

Anyways, regarding Withers-Woolford situation, well Germ has been an outstanding and loyal player for us. I think he should be able to go on his own terms. But if the club/coach/germ recognise he is past his prime and it would be a negative to keep him on - is it wrong to give him a subtle push???

I think the coach is on the right track in keeping the captain on his toes. His form this year was very variable, may have had to do with injury, but overall he wasn't the player last season that he has been. His captaincy leaves a lot to be desired also IMO. He is not revered by the players like someone like Wiki was and I don't think we get any favours out of the referees because of him. People talk about his loyalty, but remember he very nearly left for Parramatta and the only reason he stayed was because the captaincy was negotiated as part of the deal. He is probably the weakest of our captains we have had in our history, when you look back... Lance, Meninga, Daley, Stuart, even Grant.

Interesting to see what people think........

 

[Anonymous]

Personally I think Germ's a great captain. But that could be just me.

 

[Raider_69]

Personally I think Germ's a great captain. But that could be just me.

not just you mate
im thinking the complete opposite to greeneyed, i think he is potentially our smartest captain ever... not in reguards to success or skill but his footy brain and the way he conducts himself, he pushes the envelpe but how many times has he been sent for back chattin, he is marched a few times but nothing over the top.

 

[greeneyed]

I much prefer the captaincy style of Meninga, Daley, Lance..... lead by example, don't lecture the players, don't get up the nose of the ref, just point things out to him logically.......

 

[Raider_69]

i agree, i prefer that style of captain but germ is in reguards to the other kind of captain is top notch, he knows what to do when his team needs a break and he knows what the smart things to do is in close situations

 

[skeepe]

You're very agreeable aren't you Nick?

 

[Anonymous]

I take it noone else buys into my Withers as the next captain theory?

 

[Kris_man]

Elliott got an ESL premiership, sure, but Bradford have been good for ages, both before and after Matty Elliott left. If he'd won a comp with a crap team, then good on him he's a top coach, but winning the comp with what was already a good team is no major feat, especially in the ESL. i'm not saying it makes him a bad coach, of course not, but i'm saying it keeps alive the possibility that he might not be a very good coach, especially at NRL level. i'd love to love Matt Elliott, he's a top bloke, but unfortunately his results are just not satisfactory. combine that with my pre-existing loathing of negative football, and you have my final attitude on Elliott: discontent.

on Woolford: now that we have Withers, i won't blink an eyelid if he leaves. sorry Germ.

As it turns out, 2004 wasn't anywhere near as good as we'd hoped. But if Elliott & management's gamble had paid off, we would all be cheering Elliott's praises at every opportunity.

i'm familiar with this argument, and it makes sense, that "nobody knows the future, so we can't blame anyone for lack of foresight", but it's not practical. this is not horse-racing, its managment. the reason these guys are managers of an NRL club (this is a big deal) is because they know when to take risks, and when not to. these guys are meant to be top managers, they should already have learnt all their lessons. how many more "lessons" do us fans have to endure?? if you can't judge a management or coach by results, then what the heck can you judge then by?

 

[Bay56]

It is those who question the sufficiency of the status quo that will initiate the necessary changes that are required for success.

Too many on this forum are quite content to let things just roll along in the hope that things will just happen, that current form will improve, let nature take its course, lets give the coach one more season to prove himself.

I'll enjoy watching my team from the stands next season lose, win or draw with the knowledge that they are hamstrung by those of which they have no control.

 

[edabomb]

As it turns out, 2004 wasn't anywhere near as good as we'd hoped. But if Elliott & management's gamble had paid off, we would all be cheering Elliott's praises at every opportunity.

i'm familiar with this argument, and it makes sense, that "nobody knows the future, so we can't blame anyone for lack of foresight", but it's not practical. this is not horse-racing, its managment. the reason these guys are managers of an NRL club (this is a big deal) is because they know when to take risks, and when not to. these guys are meant to be top managers, they should already have learnt all their lessons. how many more "lessons" do us fans have to endure?? if you can't judge a management or coach by results, then what the heck can you judge then by?

Well said Kris_man. Elliott is paid to get it right. He should be basing the clubs future on percentages. I still rate him as a coach though.

 

[Bay56]

Well said Kris_man. Elliott is paid to get it right. He should be basing the clubs future on percentages. I still rate him as a coach though.

a bet each way edabomb ???

 

[edabomb]

I think the only difference between you and I is that I don't think much of our current roster. I reckon top 8 was a successful season with the bunch of clowns we had running round. Only Wiki, Croker, Schif and Davico look like they could be part of a premiership contending side IMO. Give Matty a season with a half decent 5/8 (no pun intended) in J.Smith and if he can't do anything then it might be time to move on.

 

[Raider_69]

i agree, im heaps agreeable

 

[Bay56]

I think the only difference between you and I is that I don't think much of our current roster. I reckon top 8 was a successful season with the bunch of clowns we had running round. Only Wiki, Croker, Schif and Davico look like they could be part of a premiership contending side IMO. Give Matty a season with a half decent 5/8 (no pun intended) in J.Smith and if he can't do anything then it might be time to move on.

Most decent coaches can do well with a decent roster (or rooster in stuarts case). The difference is those than can build a decent roster .. those who have the ability to identify, retain, attract and manage talent. That attribute is what marks the man from the boy.

Elliot has been at the club now for four years. In that time we have been on a roller coaster with no set pattern. We have lost talent and gained very little. His style is based on big boofy forwards (no offence intended) and very little in attacking set plays. How many times have you seen an attacking play at the opposition line that looks like a set play, a decoy maybe. He had a great chance to play an attacking style last game against the rooters this season ... instead we played the same old boring shit ... play that style against the rooters and they will eventually break your line and score.

Very early in his reign I recognised that he was not the coach we need to become a force ... I have not waivered from that since. When his style changes so might my opinion of him.

 

[lotm]

have you constructed a succession plan for management, yet, bay?

 

[greeneyed]

He doesn't have to. He doesn't own the club. And we won't have one if the current management continues on like it is. My plan... get some decent management consultants (people who understand sport) and review the whole organisation... get them to make some recommendations about the structures and who we need in it. Then do it.

 

[lotm]

He doesn't have to

of course he does. he categorically states that elliot and all management should be sacked, but he doesn't have a succession plan for after their dismissal. without one, it would prove that his statement was imprudent and shortsighted.

his avoidance of my question not only proves that, but also that he's a coward.

 

[Bay56]

He doesn't have to. He doesn't own the club. And we won't have one if the current management continues on like it is. My plan... get some decent management consultants (people who understand sport) and review the whole organisation... get them to make some recommendations about the structures and who we need in it. Then do it.

I dont think lotm will be satisfied with that explanation ... I think he is looking more for a 1000 page submission with pretty coloured pictures, charts, spreadsheets, profiles ... ohh and a snazy cover.

 

[Raider Azz]

That's exactlly what he's asking for Bay..... because you seem to think you can do a much better job, prove it!

You can't prove it though, which shows us that you are full of nothing but hot air.

 

[lotm]

He doesn't have to. He doesn't own the club. And we won't have one if the current management continues on like it is. My plan... get some decent management consultants (people who understand sport) and review the whole organisation... get them to make some recommendations about the structures and who we need in it. Then do it.

I dont think lotm will be satisfied with that explanation ... I think he is looking more for a 1000 page submission with pretty coloured pictures, charts, spreadsheets, profiles ... ohh and a snazy cover.

except that wasn't your plan at all. you wanted to sack all management, not review them. now who's backpeddling? :lol:

i don't want a detailed response. i want a succession plan for the immediate sacking of all management. simple, really.