News Do you care if Israel Folau returns to the NRL?

[KeepingTheFaith]

Except it has existed in history in varying forms for centuries since the Enlightenment and right through to the modern era, not only in the USA, but in large parts of the western world (including all of the Anglosphere) prior to the introduction of things such as hate speech laws, which are effectively the reinstatement of blasphemy laws with a schmick new paint job.

Sure there have historically been abuses of those principles of free speech on occasion, but there have been abuses of every principle and law ever invented by any civilisation for as long as civilisation has existed, and suggesting that because something could be abused or has been abused we can't/shouldn't have it is absolutely ridiculous.

As an aside, I find it rather ironic that you are currently railing against the principle of freedom of speech in the name of protecting gay rights when the whole concept of equal rights for gay people never would have been able to spread in mainstream society again without the protections of freedom of speech.

When did I rally against anything in the name of gay rights? Hell I'm not even rallying against anything, just giving my opinion.

People are entitled to free speech, but the idea that it won't or shouldn't come with consequences is unrealistic in the real world we live in today.

 

[BM1979]

Atheists can be offended by some dickhead preaching cherry picked verses from a book he obviously doesn't take too seriously, given his alcohol consumption, tattoos, clean shaved face and haircut (and those are just the outwardly obvious things we know about...).

They can also be offended at the idea of some dickhead telling a group of people they need to apologise for they way they were born, something they can't help.

Not everyone is religious or practises their faith from birth, people find God(Jesus, Allah, Buddah , Harrison Ford, etc etc ) at different times throughout their life just like some gay people get married and have kids before they realise they are gay.

You can be offended but who cares, what happens after you are offended .

It's funny considering this thread people will mock FOLAU's beliefs and talk about his fantasy world BS but would then turn around and call someone a Transphobe that does not believe in that fantasy world BS .

 

[Timmah]

Blame the media though , not him. It was a post on his personal Instagram account .

Personal Instagram lol... he's an athlete and his follower account is 353,000. It's not a "personal account" by any stretch.

 

[Timmah]

It is a personal account. I honestly don't even get the outrage over the whole affair. A guy posted his religious beliefs on Instagram (it was not even offensive TBH) .

The funny thing is most of the people who are outraged don't even believe in God or Hell anyway (I don't either) but will do anything to show people how outraged they are that these people are condemned to this imaginary place by this imaginary god

People who are 'outraged' are rightfully so because his words, whether they reflect belief or not, discriminate.

I don't understand why the right to discriminate is so important.

 

[BM1979]

People who are 'outraged' are rightfully so because his words, whether they reflect belief or not, discriminate.

I don't understand why the right to discriminate is so important.

To discriminate you have to deny someone a right , service. He did nothing of the sort , I don't agree with his beliefs either but to say they discriminate against people is not correct.

 

[BM1979]

Personal Instagram lol... he's an athlete and his follower account is 353,000. It's not a "personal account" by any stretch.

And what is your point. It is 100% his personal instagram account.

 

[Timmah]

To discriminate you have to deny someone a right , service. He did nothing of the sort , I don't agree with his beliefs either but to say they discriminate against people is not correct.

The definition of discrimination is not about the denial of rights:

the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

His treatment was both unjust and prejudicial.

So again, please explain to me why the right to discriminate is so important?

 

[Timmah]

And what is your point. It is 100% his personal instagram account.

Your definition of a personal account must be a bit odd. It's not private, it's been given a verification tick. He's an athlete. It's very much public and the media picking up on it is an absolute no brainer given the discriminatory content it contained.

 

[BM1979]

The definition of discrimination is not about the denial of rights:

the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

His treatment was both unjust and prejudicial.

So again, please explain to me why the right to discriminate is so important?

Your definition of a personal account must be a bit odd. It's not private, it's been given a verification tick. He's an athlete. It's very much public and the media picking up on it is an absolute no brainer given the discriminatory content it contained.

In regards to your definition of discrimination you need to look at the word TREATMENT, stating a religious belief is not treating people differently . If Israel was actually a Sky Fairy (God) and sent Gay people to hell then sure you could say he is being discriminatory(not really as probably 99% of people in the world are going according to his post) but stating your Religious beliefs is not discrimination.

You actually are being more discriminatory than him by actively stating he has no right to express his Religious beliefs


You need to learn the difference between personal and private. If you don't think it is a personal account then he cannot be held responsible for what is posted .

You are providing a pretty good defence for him If I am being honest. It 100% is his personal instagram account and would be linked to a personal email address .

 

[Timmah]

In regards to your definition of discrimination you need to look at the word TREATMENT, stating a religious belief is not treating people differently . If Israel was actually a Sky Fairy (God) and sent Gay people to hell then sure you could say he is being discriminatory(not really as probably 99% of people in the world are going according to his post) but stating your Religious beliefs is not discrimination.

You actually are being more discriminatory than him by actively stating he has no right to express his Religious beliefs


You need to learn the difference between personal and private. If you don't think it is a personal account then he cannot be held responsible for what is posted .

You are providing a pretty good defence for him If I am being honest. It 100% is his personal instagram account and would be linked to a personal email address .

This is a remarkably twisted way to view the world.

1. It's not my definition of discrimination.
2. You don't get to take the definition apart to suit your very unusual argument.
3. Hate speech - which this clearly is - is a form of discrimination.
4. Please locate for me where I actively stated he has no right to express those beliefs? He can express whatever he likes, but he is not free from consequence when his speech is discriminatory.
5. I would be stunned if he was the only person who had access to posting on his instagram account. A manager or agent would normally have the keys as well. Fact remains he's an athlete and he's held to a higher standard (wrongly or rightly) than any joe pleb with a personal social media account. I don't understand the basis for your defence of him here.

TBH, you sound like one of these 'free speech' crusaders who still doesn't understand the difference between freedom of speech as opposed to freedom from consequences.

 

[Vic Mackey]

I believe he has the right to say what he said

I also believe Union are within their rights to tell him to get stuffed for saying that

As for coming back to league, as good a player he is it’s simply not worth the drama that would be associated with it

 

[Timmah]

I believe he has the right to say what he said

I also believe Union are within their rights to tell him to get stuffed for saying that

As for coming back to league, as good a player he is it’s simply not worth the drama that would be associated with it

Exactly. When you're trying to put bums on seats the distracting headlines are not worth the trouble. NRL already has enough off-field shit to deal with.

 

[Willow]

To discriminate you have to deny someone a right , service. He did nothing of the sort , I don't agree with his beliefs either but to say they discriminate against people is not correct.

I think you'll find that it's a little more complicated than that. You're probably thinking about someone being denied work or entry into a shop based on their race, gender etc. The fact is, in Australia we have a number of anti-discrimination Acts that expand beyond your interpretation.

There's a fairly well known case from 2002 (Jones v Toben) where a website was judged unlawful for publishing hate material. The website denied the holocaust and vilified Jewish people. The Australian Federal Court ruled that this was discrimination and harmful to the Jewish community.

 

[Billythekid]

I believe he has the right to say what he said

I also believe Union are within their rights to tell him to get stuffed for saying that

As for coming back to league, as good a player he is it’s simply not worth the drama that would be associated with it

Everyone has the right to say whatever they want. Just don’t be surprised if there are actual real world consequences for what you say.

 

[Cumberland Throw]

Worst PR ever if offered an NRL deal..

So chances are it will happen

 

[Willow]

It's funny considering this thread people will mock FOLAU's beliefs and talk about his fantasy world BS but would then turn around and call someone a Transphobe that does not believe in that fantasy world BS .

You'll need to clarify that. Are you saying that trangender people are living a fantasy world bs?

 

[The Great Dane]

When did I rally against anything in the name of gay rights? Hell I'm not even rallying against anything, just giving my opinion.

I was speaking more directly to PR in that part.

People are entitled to free speech, but the idea that it won't or shouldn't come with consequences is unrealistic in the real world we live in today.

You keep saying that, but really you are just asserting it to be so without giving any reason why that must be true.

 

[BM1979]

I think you'll find that it's a little more complicated than that. You're probably thinking about someone being denied work or entry into a shop based on their race, gender etc. The fact is, in Australia we have a number of anti-discrimination Acts that expand beyond your interpretation.

There's a fairly well known case from 2002 (Jones v Toben) where a website was judged unlawful for publishing hate material. The website denied the holocaust and vilified Jewish people. The Australian Federal Court ruled that this was discrimination and harmful to the Jewish community.

I get there are hate speech laws but do you honestly believe that expressing religious beliefs is classed as hate speech.

FOLAU has misguided beliefs but to think he was promoting hatred is a step too far. I have no issue with him being called out for his beliefs but I do have a major issue with his contract being torn up. I think he will get a full payout.

What makes Rugby Australia look hypocritical is the statement they released. They stated they want everyone to feel safe and no vilification based on race, gender, Religion or sexuality but then are tearing up his contract for expressing his religious beliefs. The fact they even have a clause in his contract that he is not allowed to express them is vilifying someone based on their religion.

I don't think he is evil , he is just misguided. .

https://www.rugbyau.com/news/2019/0...-rugby-union-statement-regarding-israel-folau

Rugby Australia and the New South Wales Rugby Union have made repeated attempts to contact Israel both directly and via his representatives since 6.30pm on Wednesday, and at this point he has failed to communicate directly with either organisation.

"Whilst Israel is entitled to his religious beliefs, the way in which he has expressed these beliefs is inconsistent with the values of the sport. We want to make it clear that he does not speak for the game with his recent social media posts.

"Israel has failed to understand that the expectation of him as a Rugby Australia and NSW Waratahs employee is that he cannot share material on social media that condemns, vilifies or discriminates against people on the basis of their sexuality.

"Rugby is a sport that continuously works to unite people. We want everyone to feel safe and welcome in our game and no vilification based on race, gender, religion or sexuality is acceptable and no language that isolates, divides or insults people based on any of those factors can be tolerated.

"As a code we have made it clear to Israel formally and repeatedly that any social media posts or commentary that is in any way disrespectful to people because of their sexuality will result in disciplinary action.

"In the absence of compelling mitigating factors, it is our intention to terminate his contract."

 

[The Great Dane]

I think you'll find that it's a little more complicated than that. You're probably thinking about someone being denied work or entry into a shop based on their race, gender etc. The fact is, in Australia we have a number of anti-discrimination Acts that expand beyond your interpretation.

There's a fairly well known case from 2002 (Jones v Toben) where a website was judged unlawful for publishing hate material. The website denied the holocaust and vilified Jewish people. The Australian Federal Court ruled that this was discrimination and harmful to the Jewish community.

Those Anti-Discrimination Acts fundamentally undermine the human right to freedom of speech, and frankly are a disgusting overreach of the governments legislative power.

In other words the Federal Court may have ruled that denying the holocaust was discrimination, but it isn't in any real terms, and it seems to me that they were letting their hearts make their decisions for them instead of their heads.

In the words of a woman that was much smarter than I could ever hope to be, who was attempting to put into words the beliefs of man even smarter than her: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it", should be the principle by which we function, but we allowed it to be legislated away, and it will, and frankly in my opinion is already starting to, come back to bite us in the arse...

 

[BM1979]

You'll need to clarify that. Are you saying that trangender people are living a fantasy world bs?

I am saying that someone who claims to be a Female or Male when they are biologically the opposite sex is also living in the same fantasy world Religious folks are . They should be allowed to live their life as they wish though.