Do you want Brad Arthur as coach

[Joshuatheeel]

Fans have been calling for changes since last season. It was obvious back then that BA ball wasn’t a good enough tactic. Maybe the bald merkin did learn something here. It’s only taken him till seasons end in 2021 to play a brand of footy that may yield results against the top teams. Fingers crossed last night wasn’t a one off, and we can replicate that performance.

Far enough BA has his faults, but you really do make out NRL coaching is so simple…..

 

[Gary Gutful]

Has Brad Arthur been coaching in the NRL for 7 seasons but lacked the experience to know when to rest players and how to pace training efforts?

Having fit players in September and October has only been something he has had to concern himself with in recent years.

 

[Gary Gutful]

Far enough BA has his faults, but you really do make out NRL coaching is so simple…..

Its because he's simple.

Anything that doesnt fit into his simple world view cause him enormous angst and anguish.

 

[emjaycee]

Has Brad Arthur been coaching in the NRL for 7 seasons but lacked the experience to know when to rest players and how to pace training efforts?

Not quite sure it's a simple yes or no answer, but also not sure you are willing to listen to anything that doesn't suit your narrative, so I will just say "yes, mate. Arthur as been coaching in the NRL for 7 seasons and lacks the experience to know when to rest players and how to pace training efforts.". There you go.

 

[lucablight]

Its actually pretty rare that a rookie coach wins a comp. You also have to look at the respective squads that each rookie nrl coach had. Blokes like Joey Johns, Brad Fittler and Sonny Bill Williams help. I bet Brian Smith would have killed to coach one of those guys.

I can't for the life of me understand how coaches or players wouldn't benefit from experiencing pressure, learning lessons etc. I'm not saying its the ONLY factor, but its definitely A factor and a pretty important one imo.

Take Stuart and Robbo for instance. Do you think either of them would say that they haven't improved as a coach since their first year?

I’m sure it doesn’t hurt but how many NRL coaches do you know that have said they won or lost a premiership based on experience? Is Paul Green a better coach now than when he won a competition?

 

[lucablight]

Not quite sure it's a simple yes or no answer, but also not sure you are willing to listen to anything that doesn't suit your narrative, so I will just say "yes, mate. Arthur as been coaching in the NRL for 7 seasons and lacks the experience to know when to rest players and how to pace training efforts.". There you go.

I’m open to changing my mind if you can provide a compelling enough argument.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I’m sure it doesn’t hurt but how many NRL coaches do you know that have said they won or lost a premiership based on experience? Is Paul Green a better coach now than when he won a competition?

Of course it doesn't hurt!

Just because we cant recall someone utter those exact words, it doesn't make it less true.

When I was writing my last post I had a feeling you'd come back with Paul Green. He was on a hiding to nothing in his later years at the Cowboys - it wasn't a great squad. If he gets another chance with an NRL team he'll be better at player succession and developing a sustainable squad rather than relying on marquee players.

As for origin, he was a rookie this year and made some rookie errors. Assuming he gets another chance he'll be better for the experience.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I’m open to changing my mind if you can provide a compelling enough argument.

Its true @emjaycee - Its been hard work but I have got him to reluctantly concede that experience is important.

 

[lucablight]

Of course it doesn't hurt!

Just because we cant recall someone utter those exact words, it doesn't make it less true.

When I was writing my last post I had a feeling you'd come back with Paul Green. He was on a hiding to nothing in his later years at the Cowboys - it wasn't a great squad. If he gets another chance with an NRL team he'll be better at player succession and developing a sustainable squad rather than relying on marquee players.

As for origin, he was a rookie this year and made some rookie errors. Assuming he gets another chance he'll be better for the experience.

I agree with you. I think roster quality is far more important when it comes to winning a title than coaching experience though. Do you think we’ve lost finals because the coach lacked experience?

 

[emjaycee]

Well my argument would be that before thinking about easing up on players into the final rounds, you would firstly want to secure your position in the top 8 and if a chance, the top 4.

In 2014-2016 we weren't looking close enough to playing finals so BA didn't need to think about that.
In 2017, we were sitting in 6th with 3 rounds to go and need to win all 3 for a chance at the top 4. We did and we did. We made the finals for the first time in 8 years and made the top 4 - I reckon that was the aim and it was do that at all costs.
In 2018 we were pressing to just win a f**ken game.
2019, we lost 2 of our last 3 and managed 5th spot. I reckon BA learnt some things that year for sure.
2020 the whole world was upside down with covid impacts, so not a good learning year with a reduced comp.
So even though he has been there for 7 years (now 8) he has only been comfortably ensconced in the 8 in a 25 round comp twice before.

With all his experience, Bellamy still picked his top 17 for round 26 in 2015 because they weren't in the top 4 and in his first few years getting his team into the top 8, he picked his best 1-17 for most of their final games.
Same as why Des played Turbo today, even though it was against the lowly Dogs - he wanted to get that top 4 spot locked up. Turbo will probably play next week too despite his injured face.

I reckon it is definitely something coaches need to learn how to manage and they do that with experience.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I agree with you. I think roster quality is far more important when it comes to winning a title than coaching experience though. Do you think we’ve lost finals because the coach lacked experience?

No. I think it’s mainly because the players lacked experience. That was my original point many posts ago but it shifted into a discussion about coaches.

 

[lucablight]

Well my argument would be that before thinking about easing up on players into the final rounds, you would firstly want to secure your position in the top 8 and if a chance, the top 4.

In 2014-2016 we weren't looking close enough to playing finals so BA didn't need to think about that.
In 2017, we were sitting in 6th with 3 rounds to go and need to win all 3 for a chance at the top 4. We did and we did. We made the finals for the first time in 8 years and made the top 4 - I reckon that was the aim and it was do that at all costs.
In 2018 we were pressing to just win a f**ken game.
2019, we lost 2 of our last 3 and managed 5th spot. I reckon BA learnt some things that year for sure.
2020 the whole world was upside down with covid impacts, so not a good learning year with a reduced comp.
So even though he has been there for 7 years (now 8) he has only been comfortably ensconced in the 8 in a 25 round comp twice before.

With all his experience, Bellamy still picked his top 17 for round 26 in 2015 because they weren't in the top 4 and in his first few years getting his team into the top 8, he picked his best 1-17 for most of their final games.
Same as why Des played Turbo today, even though it was against the lowly Dogs - he wanted to get that top 4 spot locked up. Turbo will probably play next week too despite his injured face.

I reckon it is definitely something coaches need to learn how to manage and they do that with experience.

Actually in 2014 we had to win one of our last 2 to make the finals and lost both.
I concede that coaches can make mistakes and learn from them.
My question would be whether any of those changes a coach made has been the difference between winning a premiership or not.
Some of the fans here are arguing that we lack players who have finals experience compared to the top sides. How much of a factor does coaching experience come into it? I’d argue that the innate coaching ability would be a far more important factor than the amount of experience the coach has had.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I put more weight on roster quality than origin and finals experience.

So do I, but experience is a big part of a player's quality, and a key representation of it. When it comes to finals matches, big game experience is fairly predictive of success. The only stat more predictive is points differential, which to me represents that 'roster quality' you're talking about.

 

[IFR33K]

Far enough BA has his faults, but you really do make out NRL coaching is so simple…..

Where have I stated I could do a better job or it is simple. Ba’s flaws have been evident since 2015. And not much has changed. Last week you were off the bandwagon this week back on it. At least avenger waits a few weeks between flip flopping. It was a great win, let’s hope they keep it up.

 

[emjaycee]

Actually in 2014 we had to win one of our last 2 to make the finals and lost both.
I concede that coaches can make mistakes and learn from them.
My question would be whether any of those changes a coach made has been the difference between winning a premiership or not.
Some of the fans here are arguing that we lack players who have finals experience compared to the top sides. How much of a factor does coaching experience come into it? I’d argue that the innate coaching ability would be a far more important factor than the amount of experience the coach has had.

Just like winning any game during the season is a combination of players and coach, so is winning the end of season games.

I reckon both players and coaches learn from experience, hell we all do.

 

[Eelementary]

I think experience is key - but to be more specific, winning experience is key.

Experience is especially useful when making decisions under fatigue and/or pressure, and at helping to lead your team through the tough times.

For example, would a side benefit more from having Andrew Ettingshausen (or Nathan Hindmarsh) in a Grand Final qualifier, when they are up against it, or Anthony Minichiello?

Both Hindmarsh, and Ettingshausen, played more games than Minichiello - but Minichiello played in more Finals wins (and won more Premierships).

The experience that Minichiello brings to the table is more valuable than those of Hindmarsh, and Ettingshausen - it's not that Hindmarsh, and Ettingshausen, don't bring experience to the table; rather, their [relative] lack of comparative success indicates that they may not be a cool enough head under pressure to make the right decisions.

Experienced winners are very influential.

If we keep making the Finals, and start winning more Finals, we will massively benefit from it.

 

[Gary Gutful]

Where have I stated I could do a better job or it is simple. Ba’s flaws have been evident since 2015. And not much has changed. Last week you were off the bandwagon this week back on it. At least avenger waits a few weeks between flip flopping. It was a great win, let’s hope they keep it up.

There’s this very simple narrative that a few of you often throw around.

It typically involves talking about how the forum knew about all of these issues before BA did. You aren’t flat out saying that you are better than BA but one could argue that it is implicit in many of those types of statements.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

DCE and Foran won a premiership as rookie halves. Even last years Melbourne side won the comp with an inexperienced Papenhuyzen and Hughes in the spine.

Sure but these merkins had other massively experienced players to keep things sane in those big games, both in the spine and elsewhere in the squad. Stewart and Ballin were both in the 2008 premiership team. Papenhuyzen and Hughes last year were on the field with Origin and finals veterans Smith and Munster. Plus a forward pack full of merkins who won the comp three years earlier.

 

[lucablight]

So do I, but experience is a big part of a player's quality, and a key representation of it. When it comes to finals matches, big game experience is fairly predictive of success. The only stat more predictive is points differential, which to me represents that 'roster quality' you're talking about.

Could also indicate an easier draw, less injuries, less origin disruption. The Panthers would probably be ranked higher than the Storm if they weren’t disrupted by origin. The Sea Eagles would probably be ranked lower if they played the Storm and Rabbitohs twice and didn’t play the Bulldogs, Cowboys and Tigers twice.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

So

If it’s a matter of opinion then you should be able to form your own opinion based on what you see instead of just blindly placing faith in people who might not be competent at their jobs right?

Exactly. I have no blind faith in anyone which is why I have no reason to expect we should win a competition with this squad, no matter who the coach was. I'm hoping we keep improving the squad, which includes regular finals appearances for our players. If we keep doing that my confidence in the non-playing staff will continue to grow. If we miss the finals next year my confidence in them will decline, but I won't be pointing the finger at who needs to be sacked. Because it takes blind faith to think anyone else could do a better job. I reckon no coach would've won the comp with our club's resources over the past ten years. 2009 was the end of an era built largely by Brian Smith, but also backed by Fitzgerald's spending. However it's still noteworthy that we still trained at a local park rather than the type of purpose-built facility we recently convinced the government to pay for.