Dragons after Hodkinson

[Drain the Dragon]

I think there in lye's the answer mate. Since 99 we have had a very strong core group of juniors e.g. Coops, Gaz, Hornby, Young, Creigh, B Moz etc. Who have all stayed and played out their careers (or the majority of) at the Dragons. Leaving limited opportunities for younger juniors to cement a spot in the side. Which inevitably makes them seek opportunities @ other clubs.

Agree, having those guys as long termers has been a strength - especially in 2010 - but it has meant guys like JMoz, Linnett, Tariq Sims, Alex McKinnon, who started their careers in our juniors, had to move on. I'm sure there are plenty more, but hey couldn't we do with these guys now.

The cap just doesn't allow it unfortunately. So having the breeding ground is one thing, but timing when players get turned over to create opportunities for others is not easily controlled.

It's a conundrum.

 

[blacksafake]

Dragons should go after Shaun Johnson or Michael Morgan. Because the last thing you would want is for a club like Panthers to get Thursto and then you guys get someone like Walsh. So better off going hard out to get a Johnson or Morgan. Morgan especially could be very useless at the Dragons. I heard the Broncos are chasing him though.

I hope you meant useful as we already have our quota of useless people at our club?

 

[Mr Red]

So having the breeding ground is one thing, but timing when players get turned over to create opportunities for others is not easily controlled.

It's a conundrum.

Bennett did this very well at the broncos - he always said it was better to let a player leave one season too early, rather than one season too late..

1. player leaves/needs to be moved on.. The club needs to be strong in this situation, I feel we have been weak.. for example Young and Hornby as good as they were for the club over the years needed to be tapped on the shoulder a season earlier and asked to retire.
2. do you have talent internal to the club ready and able to promote as first choice?
3. if no talent internally good enough at the time to step up, then need to recruit external.

 

[Red&BlackBear]

I hope you meant useful as we already have our quota of useless people at our club?

Yeah that's what I meant.

 

[Drain the Dragon]

Bennett did this very well at the broncos - he always said it was better to let a player leave one season too early, rather than one season too late..

1. player leaves/needs to be moved on.. The club needs to be strong in this situation, I feel we have been weak.. for example Young and Hornby as good as they were for the club over the years needed to be tapped on the shoulder a season earlier and asked to retire.
2. do you have talent internal to the club ready and able to promote as first choice?
3. if no talent internally good enough at the time to step up, then need to recruit external.

I suppose we'll never know, but had Bennett stayed on, I wonder would he have made those tough calls? Given that Hornby's contract was extended while Bennett was still with us?

 

[Ronnie Dobbs]

How did I get named here? A lot will recall last year I sent PM's to number of people about Young. You are not wrong in what you have said. But you missed an element. Young backs our ability to develop. We don't pay overs or play games because Young and the club believe we can develop what we need. Right or wrong, they believe it. The problem comes when you need to fill gaps in your development.

100% correct. We do development better than anyone. We've had a golden era of talent, I hope the next lot are just as good.

If not, then thats when, as you say, problems arise.

Thats my point on it all & I'm a realist - rebuilding takes time. I just hope that the guys in charge manage it properly. My judgment on Pricey is that he's not the man to do it, because I dont believe he sees what needs to be done.

Only my opinion & I agree, as I said, 100% with your thoughts Guv.

I hope like f**king crazy that the guys in charge are the right guys to see the reality of our situation as a football team at preseent & makethe accordant moves to correct our slide.

If they don't, then thats when accountability comes in to it.

My gut feeling is we are in trouble if we think the next crop of kids has 7 or 8 internationals in it, as the last crop did.

 

[Drain the Dragon]

It may well be the next potential golden era of players left the club while a golden era was in progress. JMoz, T Sims, Linnett, Whare, Fai Fai Loa, McKinnon, etc. Nothing much the club could do to stop them from leaving either.

 

[Mr Red]

I suppose we'll never know, but had Bennett stayed on, I wonder would he have made those tough calls? Given that Hornby's contract was extended while Bennett was still with us?

Yeah would have been interesting how it played out..
my gut feel is that Bennett may have already decided he was moving on before Hornby got his contract renewed...
Smart move by Bennett if that was the case as he wouldnt look like the bad guy moving a club legend out..

 

[Godz Illa]

Yeah would have been interesting how it played out..
my gut feel is that Bennett may have already decided he was moving on before Hornby got his contract renewed...
Smart move by Bennett if that was the case as he wouldnt look like the bad guy moving a club legend out..

You're just inventing things now. Hornby re-signed (for 3 years) in early September 2010, that's before we won the comp. You're saying Bennett had planned on quitting Saints at the end of his term regardless of whether we'd won or not? Or are you saying he knew we'd definitely win the comp?

 

[Mr Red]

You're just inventing things now. Hornby re-signed (for 3 years) in early September 2010, that's before we won the comp. You're saying Bennett had planned on quitting Saints at the end of his term regardless of whether we'd won or not? Or are you saying he knew we'd definitely win the comp?

as i said its my gut feel.. who knows?
but to answer your question my gut feel is that Bennett had already decided to move on at the end of his term regardless..
and the point i was making is what if Bennett stayed - would he have tapped Hornby on the shoulder end of 2011, and not got him to play into 2012? would have been interesting to see how that panned out..

 

[Godz Illa]

Sure. And I suppose you'd find some way to blame Doust for that. Based on gut feel, of course.

btw how do you explain Bennett's signing (and re-signing) of a player like Danny Buderus, currently 35 and injury prone

 

[Mr Red]

Sure. And I suppose you'd find some way to blame Doust for that. Based on gut feel, of course.

btw how do you explain Bennett's signing (and re-signing) of a player like Danny Buderus, currently 35 and injury prone

wtf has Doust got to do with it?
buderus is playing the same role as what Luke Priddis/Nathan Fien did for us.. did you have a problem when Bennett signed either or these two?

Buderus can offer the younger players some mentoring and guidance...
i am sure if Buderus continues to be injury prone or lack form this season he will get the tap on the shoulder..

 

[Godz Illa]

wtf has Doust got to do with it? Who knows. I figured you'd find a way.

Buderus can offer the younger players some mentoring and guidance...

Funny, maybe that's the same reason Hornby and Young were kept around, especially considering the fact that, y'know, they were the captain and vice captain.

 

[Mr Red]

wtf has Doust got to do with it? Who knows. I figured you'd find a way.

Funny, maybe that's the same reason Hornby and Young were kept around, especially considering the fact that, y'know, they were the captain and vice captain.

do you think Hornby and Young played a season too long?

 

[Godz Illa]

All easy to say in hindsight. "Tapping the shoulder" of your two most senior players, when you've already lost your coach and another senior player in Gasnier would be a very risky move for the team from a performance and morale point of view. There's also the financial impact -they were both under contract, if they refused to retire (a la Priddis) the club would need to pay them out. Few clubs are willing to do this.
Not to mention the fact that it is a rather grubby way to treat a couple of club legends. Would it be worth all that?

 

[Mr Red]

All easy to say in hindsight. "Tapping the shoulder" of your two most senior players, when you've already lost your coach and another senior player in Gasnier would be a very risky move for the team from a performance and morale point of view. There's also the financial impact -they were both under contract, if they refused to retire (a la Priddis) the club would need to pay them out. Few clubs are willing to do this.
Not to mention the fact that it is a rather grubby way to treat a couple of club legends. Would it be worth all that?

agree on the point regarding morale... but the players would understand, age catches up with the best of them..
i dont think suggesting a player to retire is grubby at all, worse is if the club allows the player to keep playing when he is clearly not up to it..aka Hornby 2012.. IMO that is a far more "grubby" way to treat a player, letting them get embarrassed each week to the point the fans start to question them..
so...to answer my question...do you think Hornby and Young played a season too long?

 

[Drain the Dragon]

do you think Hornby and Young played a season too long?

I don't think they did. There was no-one banging the door down to claim their spots. And it was important for Price to have plenty of experience in the squad in his first season as an NRL coach.

Those 2 guys were the soul of the club. The Dragons don't move those types of players on without good reason. And at the time, it wasn't a fait accompli that we would have as tough a year as we eventually did. After six or seven rounds we were travelling along in the top 4 from memory.

 

[Mr Red]

I don't think they did. There was no-one banging the door down to claim their spots. And it was important for Price to have plenty of experience in the squad in his first season as an NRL coach.

Those 2 guys were the soul of the club. The Dragons don't move those types of players on without good reason. And at the time, it wasn't a fait accompli that we would have as tough a year as we eventually did. After six or seven rounds we were travelling along in the top 4 from memory.

some valid points... however i think it was evident towards the last 7-8 weeks of 2011 that Hornby was on his last legs and would not be a feasible option for the enitre 2012 season... at that point we should have got a new half for 2012 and Hornby could have provided a mentor role in some way..
and yes as you mentioned there was no one banging down the door to take his place... but the club also didnt go looking for anyone either......

 

[Godz Illa]

so...to answer my question...do you think Hornby and Young played a season too long?

See this is a fantasy question. People think being a "realist" is about stating these supposedly hard truths. The really hard truth is viewing a situation holistically, in full context, with all the facts. Based on the factors I mentioned, keeping them was the correct choice

 

[Cagey Mac]

Hornby got a little self-focussed toward the end from what I can gather was still our best option

Young remained inspirational and the club's best "clubman" 'til the end.
He was seen as the glue that held the team together off the park