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Dugan rejects 3 year extension from Raiders

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,121
How about the Roosters make do with what they have and look after their own investments? The last thing they should be doing is buying MORE players.
 
Messages
4,007
different circumstance .Both Johns and Gasnier money was to fend off a rival code not a rival club
ie union . Plus both were also established superstars at the top of the game not promising juniors. I reckon the roosters would have some room under their cap , they would have Fitzgibbon,Omeley and Mason money in the kick . Plus they got Carney,daniel conn and pierce cheap . I reckon they have some room for some players . The eels on the other hand i cant make their cap work no matter how hard i try.....

The only thing different about it is the fact it was yawnion trying to get them.

I can't see why the NRL can't step in somehow if they did the same for other clubs.
 

bileduct

Coach
Messages
17,832
I can't see why the NRL can't step in somehow if they did the same for other clubs.
Please explain to me precisely why, in the current day of the salary cap, the NRL should intervene to stop a player leaving one club for another at his own free will.
 

Greenbits

Juniors
Messages
434
I do not understand where you blokes are coming from .Canberra has the same $4.1 million to buy , pay or retain or throw at any player it wishes,including dugan . So its a fair game , what is everyone whinging about ? Why would you be bitter towards the NRL ? just an unbelievingly stupid argument . If anything the raiders would be in the box seat for negotiations because A they can offer more to Dugan as the raiders roster isnt full of big names and B if Canberra is obviously such a far superior place to live than Sydney as stated why would he leave .

I understand your point of view, but you need to also look at it from a Raiders fan's point of view.

Our team has done nothing for the best part of a decade.

We are unable to recruit big names, never have in our history, so our philosophy is develop or team.

This is a lengthy process that does not have immediate rewards.

We have recently (through no fault of our own) lost our most recent promising junior who we intended to build our future around - this has set us back 3-5 years.

We have a new future superstar we have developed and are planning our future around - there are rumours he will defect to another club at the time he will likely begin to pay divedends.

This will likely set us back another 3-5 years.

I ask you, what is the point - if Dugan goes, the Raiders might as well fold.

Rugby League has lost so much ground to union in the ACT since superleague. The Raiders are a distant second to the Brumbies in terms of interest and support. The NRL obviously doesn't care that a once proud rugby league nursery is rapidly vanishing.

Although we all work under a salary cap, the Raiders are not competing on a level field with Sydney clubs.

I, and the overwhelming people who currently, or have previously lived in Canberra think its a terrific place to live. Unfortunately, the group it least appeals to is men of ages 18-25, which describes most professional sportsmen. The city is like a rancid looking curry at a dodgy Indian takeaway - you don't think its going to agree with you, but once you get into it you're loving it.

Players based in Sydney are naturally not going to want to up root their lives and move to another city when there are 8 other Sydney-based clubs to play for. If you played for the Dragons, were shopping around and got the same offer from Cronulla and Canberra, which would be easier to move to?

Raiders players are ignored by the Sydney/NRL media, so exposure and therefore sponsorship potential is limited by playing for the club (at least Matty Johns is giving us a fair run).

Canberra does not have a large corporate sector, so lucrative third party sponsorships are probably harder to come by.

If Dugan leaves, we will wait another 3 or so years for our next big thing to be blooded from juniors, so we can pin our hopes of a resurrection on him, only to see him picked off by some club who, instead of putting time and development into building a team, simply buy players for premierships and spit them out when they're done.

We don't want any special rules to help us out. We simply want to be rewarded for developing our players - as every club should.

We are becoming a feeder for more powerful Sydney clubs - if this is allowed to continue, there is no point in our further existance.
 
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Messages
4,007
Please explain to me precisely why, in the current day of the salary cap, the NRL should intervene to stop a player leaving one club for another at his own free will.

I never said he shouldn't be allowed to leave of his own free will....learn to read.

Im simply saying that I cannot see why we shouldn't seek assistance to keep our player like other clubs have in the past with theirs.

I think thats simple enough for you to understand.
 

ironhorse

Juniors
Messages
1,062
I understand the frustration at the loss of a good player to any club, but thats it . Canberra Raiders do not revolve around Josh Dugen FFS ! Bugger Dugen If the Raiders were smart and serious about getting back in the winners circle they would be looking to break the Furner cartel down there and recruit Craig Bellamy or Wayne Bennett, end. of. story.
 

skeepe

Immortal
Messages
48,316
I understand your point of view, but you need to also look at it from a Raiders fan's point of view.

Our team has done nothing for the best part of a decade.

We are unable to recruit big names, never have in our history, so our philosophy is develop or team.

This is a lengthy process that does not have immediate rewards.

We have recently (through no fault of our own) lost our most recent promising junior who we intended to build our future around - this has set us back 3-5 years.

We have a new future superstar we have developed and are planning our future around - there are rumours he will defect to another club at the time he will likely begin to pay divedends.

This will likely set us back another 3-5 years.

I ask you, what is the point - if Dugan goes, the Raiders might as well fold.

Rugby League has lost so much ground to union in the ACT since superleague. The Raiders are a distant second to the Brumbies in terms of interest and support. The NRL obviously doesn't care that a once proud rugby league nursery is rapidly vanishing.

Although we all work under a salary cap, the Raiders are not competing on a level field with Sydney clubs.

I, and the overwhelming people who currently, or have previously lived in Canberra think its a terrific place to live. Unfortunately, the group it least appeals to is men of ages 18-25, which describes most professional sportsmen. The city is like a rancid looking curry at a dodgy Indian takeaway - you don't think its going to agree with you, but once you get into it you're loving it.

Players based in Sydney are naturally not going to want to up root their lives and move to another city when there are 8 other Sydney-based clubs to play for. If you played for the Dragons, were shopping around and got the same offer from Cronulla and Canberra, which would be easier to move to?

Raiders players are ignored by the Sydney/NRL media, so exposure and therefore sponsorship potential is limited by playing for the club (at least Matty Johns is giving us a fair run).

Canberra does not have a large corporate sector, so lucrative third party sponsorships are probably harder to come by.

If Dugan leaves, we will wait another 3 or so years for our next big thing to be blooded from juniors, so we can pin our hopes of a resurrection on him, only to see him picked off by some club who, instead of putting time and development into building a team, simply buy players for premierships and spit them out when they're done.

We don't want any special rules to help us out. We simply want to be rewarded for developing our players - as every club should.

We are becoming a feeder for more powerful Sydney clubs - if this is allowed to continue, there is no point in our further existance.

Wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.
 

1 Eyed TEZZA

Coach
Messages
12,420
Seriously? Are people seriously putting the future of the Canberra Raiders dependant of what Josh Dugan does with his next contract? My god what a sad case. If the Dogs survived all their troubles (including the loss of SBW who is 10 times the player of Dugan) and if Melbourne survive this crap, Canberra will survive the loss of Josh Dugan. Bloody sad cases.

Canberra will be given the same chance to keep Dugan as every other club has the chance to sign him. If Canberra are helped in keeping Dugan, Melbourne are to be helped in keeping any othe their stars, Parramatta with Kris Inu and Eric Grothe, etc etc.

And I believe the NRL didnt actually financially help Newcastle or St George to keep Johns and Gasnier, but rather helped organise 3rd party deals for them.
 

shear_joy9

Coach
Messages
13,743
I understand your point of view, but you need to also look at it from a Raiders fan's point of view.

Our team has done nothing for the best part of a decade.

We are unable to recruit big names, never have in our history, so our philosophy is develop or team.

This is a lengthy process that does not have immediate rewards.

We have recently (through no fault of our own) lost our most recent promising junior who we intended to build our future around - this has set us back 3-5 years.

We have a new future superstar we have developed and are planning our future around - there are rumours he will defect to another club at the time he will likely begin to pay divedends.

This will likely set us back another 3-5 years.

I ask you, what is the point - if Dugan goes, the Raiders might as well fold.

Rugby League has lost so much ground to union in the ACT since superleague. The Raiders are a distant second to the Brumbies in terms of interest and support. The NRL obviously doesn't care that a once proud rugby league nursery is rapidly vanishing.

Although we all work under a salary cap, the Raiders are not competing on a level field with Sydney clubs.

I, and the overwhelming people who currently, or have previously lived in Canberra think its a terrific place to live. Unfortunately, the group it least appeals to is men of ages 18-25, which describes most professional sportsmen. The city is like a rancid looking curry at a dodgy Indian takeaway - you don't think its going to agree with you, but once you get into it you're loving it.

Players based in Sydney are naturally not going to want to up root their lives and move to another city when there are 8 other Sydney-based clubs to play for. If you played for the Dragons, were shopping around and got the same offer from Cronulla and Canberra, which would be easier to move to?

Raiders players are ignored by the Sydney/NRL media, so exposure and therefore sponsorship potential is limited by playing for the club (at least Matty Johns is giving us a fair run).

Canberra does not have a large corporate sector, so lucrative third party sponsorships are probably harder to come by.

If Dugan leaves, we will wait another 3 or so years for our next big thing to be blooded from juniors, so we can pin our hopes of a resurrection on him, only to see him picked off by some club who, instead of putting time and development into building a team, simply buy players for premierships and spit them out when they're done.

We don't want any special rules to help us out. We simply want to be rewarded for developing our players - as every club should.

We are becoming a feeder for more powerful Sydney clubs - if this is allowed to continue, there is no point in our further existance.

you are either Don Furner or have just believed all his codswallop.

All Canberra's "problems" are simply excuses made up by Donny for his inabilty to achieve anything.
 

Greenbits

Juniors
Messages
434
Skeepe, I'd love to hear your take ont he situation.

Shear Joy, what are your reasons behind the Raiders inability to recruit?

1 Eyed Tezza, I never said the Raiders should be given extra help to retain Dugan. I think all clubs, Parra, Melbourne, Broncs, Roosters, whoever, should be given incentives to develop their own players and dispensation under the cap to keep their juniors. Its good for tribalism, its good for the game. The dogs survived their troubles by essentially going out and recruiting a team full of high profile players, something the Raiders have difficulty doing (the fact that I have to point this out means you missed the point of my post).

The future of the Raiders doesn't rest on the resigning of Dugan. What I'm saying is what is symbolises at least to me, and I don't doubt many other Raiders fans. If he is lost, he the second generational player in a row we have lost. For a club that relies on development, that is devastating. It takes 3-5 years to recover each time, and I think people will start questioning if the club will ever pull itself out of its slump.
 

ironhorse

Juniors
Messages
1,062
Skeepe, I'd love to hear your take ont he situation.

Shear Joy, what are your reasons behind the Raiders inability to recruit?

1 Eyed Tezza, I never said the Raiders should be given extra help to retain Dugan. I think all clubs, Parra, Melbourne, Broncs, Roosters, whoever, should be given incentives to develop their own players and dispensation under the cap to keep their juniors. Its good for tribalism, its good for the game. The dogs survived their troubles by essentially going out and recruiting a team full of high profile players, something the Raiders have difficulty doing (the fact that I have to point this out means you missed the point of my post).

The future of the Raiders doesn't rest on the resigning of Dugan. What I'm saying is what is symbolises at least to me, and I don't doubt many other Raiders fans. If he is lost, he the second generational player in a row we have lost. For a club that relies on development, that is devastating. It takes 3-5 years to recover each time, and I think people will start questioning if the club will ever pull itself out of its slump.


Read my post re : The Furner Cartel . ..... When the green
machine really was the green machine who was pulling the strings ? - Bennett attracted the big name (QLD) players to the club ,Meninga ,Walters brothers ,belcher ,Coyne .. Raiders did pull names to the place once you know....then Tim Sheens guided the nucleaus later on to Grand finals and premierships..... so whats the difference between then and now ? Now no names go to the club and it's all local juniors ....Its not that hard to work it out .
 

Greenbits

Juniors
Messages
434
Read my post re : The Furner Cartel . ..... When the green
machine really was the green machine who was pulling the strings ? - Bennett attracted the big name (QLD) players to the club ,Meninga ,Walters brothers ,belcher ,Coyne .. Raiders did pull names to the place once you know....then Tim Sheens guided the nucleaus later on to Grand finals and premierships..... so whats the difference between then and now ? Now no names go to the club and it's all local juniors ....Its not that hard to work it out .


See thats the misconception. Meninga was the clubs biggest ever recuit. He had never played for a club in the NSWRL prior to that. Coyne, Walters Bros and Belcher were all getting around in the Brisbane comp. They all debuted for QLD and Australia after joining the Raiders.

Even during the glamour years, we never recruited big name players. Mostly we blooded un-heard-ofs from NZ, QLD, and country NSW, the same as we do today.

Look at the 1994 premiership winning team - how many of them had played at another club. Maybe Osborne. 7. From memory: 1. Mullins, 2. Negas, 3. Meninga, 4. Wiki, 5. Nadruku, 6. Daley, 7. Stuart, 8. Osborne, 9. Walters, 10. Pongia, 11. Furner, 12. Croker, 13. Clyde (can't remember the bench)
 
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1 Eyed TEZZA

Coach
Messages
12,420
The future of the Raiders doesn't rest on the resigning of Dugan.

?


I
I ask you, what is the point - if Dugan goes, the Raiders might as well fold.

Rugby League has lost so much ground to union in the ACT since superleague. The Raiders are a distant second to the Brumbies in terms of interest and support. The NRL obviously doesn't care that a once proud rugby league nursery is rapidly vanishing.

Although we all work under a salary cap, the Raiders are not competing on a level field with Sydney clubs.

We are becoming a feeder for more powerful Sydney clubs - if this is allowed to continue, there is no point in our further existance.

My club has been ravaged by other clubs over our juniors. We currently have Hodgkinson over at Manly, Blake Green at Canterbury and we are still going through other clubs trying to take our juniors. At the moment, the Warriors are offering massive amounts of money to Mateo and Inu while the Bulldogs were after Kris Keating and Daniel Mortimer.

Your using the prospect of losing Dugan as a symbol of the unfairness that your club goes through. Thats crap, every club is on the same salary cap (except for the Warriors who I think are allowed to opperate higher to allow them to attract players over seas). Newcastle, Auckland, Townsville and Wollongong are no more or less desirable to live then Canberra.

And even if the place is the problem (which I doubt), tell me what the Canberra management are using to entice players to Canberra? Whats their bargaining chip?
 

Greenbits

Juniors
Messages
434
?




My club has been ravaged by other clubs over our juniors. We currently have Hodgkinson over at Manly, Blake Green at Canterbury and we are still going through other clubs trying to take our juniors. At the moment, the Warriors are offering massive amounts of money to Mateo and Inu while the Bulldogs were after Kris Keating and Daniel Mortimer.

Your using the prospect of losing Dugan as a symbol of the unfairness that your club goes through. Thats crap, every club is on the same salary cap (except for the Warriors who I think are allowed to opperate higher to allow them to attract players over seas). Newcastle, Auckland, Townsville and Wollongong are no more or less desirable to live then Canberra.

And even if the place is the problem (which I doubt), tell me what the Canberra management are using to entice players to Canberra? Whats their bargaining chip?

Absolutely Parra have been rooted, and will continue to be under the current system. I'd love to see them hold onto their talent. But they are more than capable of recruiting high profile players as well. Case in point Poore and Tahu- two origin players. Canberra has recruited one origin player in its history - Meninga from St Helens. Development is our only avenue to success - if we lose it we are f***ed.

Newcastle, Townsville and Auckland have similar problems to Canberra. They all rely on development to a similar extent. How are they doing this year? When was the last time any of those teams won a premiership without Joey Johns?

I'm not argueing that Canberra is being unfairly treated. I'm argueing that the system disadvantages clubs that develop their juniors and advantages those that are in positions to lure high profile recruits. The playing ground should simply be made a little more level IMO.
 
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timka4

Bench
Messages
2,505
mmm the whole salary cap issue with potential discounts for juniors and stuff does sound very appealing for a a lot of clubs including canberra for obvious reasons, but it seems jersey numbers are more important than the likes of your club, not to change the subject :S
 

1 Eyed TEZZA

Coach
Messages
12,420
Absolutely Parra have been rooted, and will continue to be under the current system. I'd love to see them hold onto their talent. But they are more than capable of recruiting high profile players as well. Case in point Poore and Tahu- two origin players. Canberra has recruited one origin player in its history - Meninga from St Helens. Development is our only avenue to success - if we lose it we are f***ed.

Newcastle, Townsville and Auckland have similar problems to Canberra. They all rely on development to a similar extent. How are they doing this year? When was the last time any of those teams won a premiership without Joey Johns?

I'm not argueing that Canberra is being unfairly treated. I'm argueing that the system disadvantages clubs that develop their juniors and advantages those that are in positions to lure high profile recruits. The playing ground should simply be made a little more level IMO.

Your getting off topic, yes clubs should be rewarded for developed juniors and long serving players (our CEO today was one that pushed for that at the CEO's conference) bla bla blah. Thats the current system we work in, it will not change at this point in time. The best thing is to work within the system now.

My point is that you wrote that if Josh Dugan were to leave Canberra, the club might aswell fold. That statement was utterly rediculous and it just solidifies peoples opinions that Canberra fans are whingers.
 

Greenbits

Juniors
Messages
434
Your getting off topic, yes clubs should be rewarded for developed juniors and long serving players (our CEO today was one that pushed for that at the CEO's conference) bla bla blah. Thats the current system we work in, it will not change at this point in time. The best thing is to work within the system now.

My point is that you wrote that if Josh Dugan were to leave Canberra, the club might aswell fold. That statement was utterly rediculous and it just solidifies peoples opinions that Canberra fans are whingers.

Fair enough, I guess I was being a bit melodramatic. Folding is a bit excessive :oops:. I guess I'm just trying to demonstrate of despair his loss will bring to this club. God knows when we'll happen across another player like him. He has the potential to be our Lockyer, our Johns, our Fitler, our Smith, our next Meninga. This kid is a gun. He is still only 19 and he is our best player. We need to build our team around him. To lose him could be devastating, because for a club like ours, he is so difficult to replace.
 

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