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Game of Thrones VIII

Game_Breaker

Coach
Messages
15,019
First things first, the Night King doesn't exist in the books, so whoever was going to kill him wasn't going to be something decided by GRRM. The showrunners stated in Behind the Episode that they chose Arya because people wouldn't expect it... So my point was that Arya doesn't fit thematically to be the one to kill the Night King.

Not 100% sure yet
Winds of Winter could reveal a leader of the Others of some sort, given they will feature more prominently in this book

It's interesting that people run with small remarks like 'What do we tell death?' as some kind of evidence of her destiny yet leave out what really kick-started Arya's story; watching her father be beheaded by his enemies. Her story is not about becoming a bad-ass assassin for the sake of being a bad-ass assassin. It's about reaching a point where she can inflict revenge and justice upon the people who have hurt her and the people she cared about:

Meryn Trant - Syrio Forel
Walder Frey - Robb & Catelyn
Joffrey/Littlefinger - Ned (beaten to Joffrey)

Okay, so there is her Faceless Men storyline, but that storyline concludes with her saying this:

Jaqen h'ghar: Finally, a girl is no one.
Arya Stark: A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home.

That storyline was about her being reminded of who she really is. She is not some faceless assassin. She is Arya Stark, and with that comes her grievances and enemies. Her enemies, listed above, is what she has trained for.

I understand there is a lot of references to the faceless God and Death during this plot. However I don't agree that Death = Dead/Night King, I think they are different concepts. Death is something that is coming for everyone and The Faceless Men/Arya is trained in dealing it out and avoiding it (looking at Death in the face and saying not today etc). This is where I think D&D just conflated the two ideas and got it wrong.

The tl;dr is that Arya's arc is about exacting revenge on those who hurt her. Not being the hero. D&D basically confirmed they just made this up; so in my opinion they don't understand her character.

So, who instead?

1) Jon Snow. Yeah, it may have been painfully obvious, but including twists for the sake of twists and to shock the audience is not good writing. His entire story and arc lead to this moment. So what purpose does he serve now? Why would he give a flying f**k who sits on the Iron Throne? I guess you could argue because he loves Dany, but if they reduce Jon Snow from hero to loved up pawn then put Jon Snow down as another character they don't understand.

2) Jaime Lannister. The Kingslayer. Why? Well, what was the point of him riding North if not to be a hero? Jon etc sacrificed a dragon and men to gain Jaime Lannister in Season 7 (that's all he got from taking a wight to King's Landing) and he essentially did nothing. Jaime's redemption arc is well-documented, as his ongoing battle with honour and doing the right thing. There are the empty pages in his Kingsguard entry regarding his heroic deeds. Him killing the Night King would have been the perfect completion of his redemption story and would have transformed Kingslayer, an insult he received prior to redemption, to something heroic post-redemption arc.

Instead, we got Arya killing him, because Arya is cool and a bad-ass and is cool and I guess the Night King was on her list or something. Ugh.

Ok, I understand your point a bit better now
I see it as her desire for revenge goes out the window as soon the Night King arrives. In fact everyone's desires take a back seat when he arrives including Dany & Sansa.
and I don't see her being the savior as a twist just for the sake of being a twist - Sam or Tyrion would be that. The move that killed the NK was practiced when she sparred with Brienne, same sort of hand switch with the dagger - so we got a preview of it 1 season ago

As you said, she is Arya Stark of Winterfell, she also wants to protect Winterfell and her family


Jaime's story isn't finished yet (I think he'll be the queen slayer), and as for Jon? I don't know where his arc goes now, I do agree with that.
 

butchmcdick

Post Whore
Messages
52,179
First things first, the Night King doesn't exist in the books, so whoever was going to kill him wasn't going to be something decided by GRRM. The showrunners stated in Behind the Episode that they chose Arya because people wouldn't expect it... So my point was that Arya doesn't fit thematically to be the one to kill the Night King.

It's interesting that people run with small remarks like 'What do we tell death?' as some kind of evidence of her destiny yet leave out what really kick-started Arya's story; watching her father be beheaded by his enemies. Her story is not about becoming a bad-ass assassin for the sake of being a bad-ass assassin. It's about reaching a point where she can inflict revenge and justice upon the people who have hurt her and the people she cared about:

Meryn Trant - Syrio Forel
Walder Frey - Robb & Catelyn
Joffrey/Littlefinger - Ned (beaten to Joffrey)

Okay, so there is her Faceless Men storyline, but that storyline concludes with her saying this:

Jaqen h'ghar: Finally, a girl is no one.
Arya Stark: A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home.

That storyline was about her being reminded of who she really is. She is not some faceless assassin. She is Arya Stark, and with that comes her grievances and enemies. Her enemies, listed above, is what she has trained for.

I understand there is a lot of references to the faceless God and Death during this plot. However I don't agree that Death = Dead/Night King, I think they are different concepts. Death is something that is coming for everyone and The Faceless Men/Arya is trained in dealing it out and avoiding it (looking at Death in the face and saying not today etc). This is where I think D&D just conflated the two ideas and got it wrong.

The tl;dr is that Arya's arc is about exacting revenge on those who hurt her. Not being the hero. D&D basically confirmed they just made this up; so in my opinion they don't understand her character.

So, who instead?

1) Jon Snow. Yeah, it may have been painfully obvious, but including twists for the sake of twists and to shock the audience is not good writing. His entire story and arc lead to this moment. So what purpose does he serve now? Why would he give a flying f**k who sits on the Iron Throne? I guess you could argue because he loves Dany, but if they reduce Jon Snow from hero to loved up pawn then put Jon Snow down as another character they don't understand.

2) Jaime Lannister. The Kingslayer. Why? Well, what was the point of him riding North if not to be a hero? Jon etc sacrificed a dragon and men to gain Jaime Lannister in Season 7 (that's all he got from taking a wight to King's Landing) and he essentially did nothing. Jaime's redemption arc is well-documented, as his ongoing battle with honour and doing the right thing. There are the empty pages in his Kingsguard entry regarding his heroic deeds. Him killing the Night King would have been the perfect completion of his redemption story and would have transformed Kingslayer, an insult he received prior to redemption, to something heroic post-redemption arc.

Instead, we got Arya killing him, because Arya is cool and a bad-ass and is cool and I guess the Night King was on her list or something. Ugh.

Yo Apey

Check out the YouTube clip at 32 minutes in

It kind of answers your point

 

nick87

Coach
Messages
12,412
I hate to remotely agree with whatsisname, but old mate Bran could have at least tried to save Theon from a futile death. "Theon. Thanks bro your a champ, but I've got it from here. Go chill out behind the weir wood."

I mean sure, but also "Hey Theon, just chill bro, you ca... *remembers how Theon stole his castle, murdered his people, desecrated the memory of house Stark, murdered some poor local family to hide the fact he didnt get Rickon and Bran, stood idly by whilst Sansa got raped, thwarted her escape, abandoned Asha in her time of need*... *ahem* you're a good man Theon"
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
28,284
I don't mind the dagger's role and the idea that it's come full circle from originally being sent to kill Bran. I don't think it really challenges any of my points about Arya's arc though, rather they just boil it down to 'she's an assassin therefore we used her to assassinate someone'. That Jon would have been too obvious is what I was referring to when I mentioned a twist for the sake of a twist. Let's not get the guy whose entire story up until this point led to this moment do the deed (or be more involved with) because it's too obvious and we must subvert expectations. Subverting expectations is great, GOT excelled at it (when following GRRMs source material), except when it's at the expense of the story and character's arcs.

Watching that I understand why avid book readers become disillusioned with the show. D&D don't seem to put too much thought into some character arcs. In their defence though, these aren't their characters. They're GRRMs. They can't create a masterpiece with someone else's work. The old fat bastard probably doesn't know how their stories end either yet and didn't give them much to go on for Season 7 and Season 8.
 

Game_Breaker

Coach
Messages
15,019
Skip to 1:30



“What, is there to be a battle in the godswood?” Maester Luwin



I don't mind the dagger's role and the idea that it's come full circle from originally being sent to kill Bran. I don't think it really challenges any of my points about Arya's arc though, rather they just boil it down to 'she's an assassin therefore we used her to assassinate someone'. That Jon would have been too obvious is what I was referring to when I mentioned a twist for the sake of a twist. Let's not get the guy whose entire story up until this point led to this moment do the deed (or be more involved with) because it's too obvious and we must subvert expectations. Subverting expectations is great, GOT excelled at it (when following GRRMs source material), except when it's at the expense of the story and character's arcs.

Watching that I understand why avid book readers become disillusioned with the show. D&D don't seem to put too much thought into some character arcs. In their defence though, these aren't their characters. They're GRRMs. They can't create a masterpiece with someone else's work. The old fat bastard probably doesn't know how their stories end either yet and didn't give them much to go on for Season 7 and Season 8.

Once the show went past the books, the quality has dropped
He's still an executive producer of the show, so perhaps the next 2 books will paint a better picture of how she reaches that point
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
If the writers really said they used Arya to kill Night King or whatever his name is because 'people wouldn't expect it' then f**k outta here - it's nothing but soap opera writing so don't expect the final episodes to hold any deeper meaning thematically.

To be fair to the show's writers, the books get completely ridiculous as well, especially book 5. If the Winds of Winter introduces a leader of the Others that if killed destroys the whole army that they've been building up for 5 books then it will be a big letdown.

And I think LOTR itself did better at subverting the classic 'LOTR happily ever afters' than GOT has.
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
28,284
Skip to 1:30


Tfw you can't listen right now so you put CC on

wb4dNfC.png
 

Timbo

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,281
Here’s a question - who was the general commanding the army of the living? All of our heroes are commanding aspects of the fight, nobody seems in overall command of the defence?

Probably why the battle tactics were such a shambles.
 

nick87

Coach
Messages
12,412
No one commanded shit once they breached the walls of Winterfall. At that point, and i think it was a concept well made by the show runners, there was no plan, there as no command, it was just every living man and women for themselves. Survival was in command
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
I'll devils advocate myself.

I've argued about unfulfilled character arcs and wasted plot lines, but if there's one thing the almost perfect early seasons showed it's that characters don't always find the ending they 'deserve'. Surely this applies to good and bad? Robb and Ned were stopped in their tracks with the goal in sight, why not the Night King?
Are they comparable?

Ned's death: double crossed and executed by Joffrey after admitting guilt.
Dumb move to trust the Lannisters, but the build up is there. Ned has motivation to put himself into the trap, saving his family and his life. Joffrey has form, already shown to be cruel and unstable.
And the payoff from a narrative point of view, it sets the tone, it triggers bigger and better things for the story. From this the Starks go to war, Sansa is imprisoned, and Arya is abandoned and traumatised.
It doesn't feel like anything is unresolved as a result of Ned's death though, the big mysteries of Jon Arryn and the Lannister betrayals come to their conclusion.
Motives, form, payoff.

Robb's death: another double cross, at the hands of the Frey lord he reneged on.
The trap is obvious but the motive again makes it necessary, he needs the Freys or his war ends. He is paying for his own mistakes and perceived betrayals. On the other side there's form, the Freys are known dirtbags, Tywin and Rose scheming behind the scenes.
The payoff is harder to understand. It wipes the Starks almost off the board, removes numerous main characters. It pushes the last 'good guys' into total desperation and opens the game up for Stannis, Roose, Dany and others.

So the Night Kings fall.
Why is it different? The same rules should apply to all characters, evil should be able to fall as hard as good.
Form: Arya has trained, has all the skills necessary. Bran has the pieces in place where they need to be, gives them the information and the tools. From this side of things it's a decent enough set up.
Motive: THIS is what I can't get behind. Why does NK step into the trap?Where's the urgent need? The previous episodes spiel about Bran holding all knowledge isn't enough. Too late, too flimsy, too many obvious ways around it. Nor is arrogance an adequate explanation, total cop-out to have the 8000 year old basically demigod to have the same weakness as f**king Littlefinger.
Why not have him slaughtered by walkers or thralls? Why the almost monologue? Why not win the battle then finish him up?
This is what makes it feel cheap, and this is what needs to be answered to give the payoff any kind of weight. Previous huge twists didn't require guesswork or wait-and-see, the motives and pieces were all in the open.
There's only 3 episodes to wrap up. Will they devote any minutes to looking backwards to the NK and his armies? Don't think so.
 
Last edited:

butchmcdick

Post Whore
Messages
52,179
I shouldn't have raised the circumstances of the Arya kill because it overshadows the larger point,
That NK falling so easily trashes 8 seasons of build up and leaves multiple story arcs unresolved or resolved in the most slapdash, roundabout way possible

Dying easily ?
 

Timbo

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,281
Motive: THIS is what I can't get behind. Why does NK step into the trap?Where's the urgent need? The previous episodes spiel about Bran holding all knowledge isn't enough. Too late, too flimsy, too many obvious ways around it. Nor is arrogance an adequate explanation, total cop-out to have the 8000 year old basically demigod to have the same weakness as f**king Littlefinger.
Why not have him slaughtered by walkers or thralls? Why the almost monologue? Why not win the battle then finish him up?

I think it has to be because the Night King is less a scheming villain and more a machine. He's basically programmed by the Children of the Forest to kill all humans and see the Three-Eyed Raven as a threat due to their ability to retain all knowledge of the history of men.

I know it's not satisfying for a lot of people, but to me it seems the best explanation.
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
28,284
lyXfIB4.png


Total retcon.

Still, Arya is better than some complete random like Brienne doing it I guess.
 

Game_Breaker

Coach
Messages
15,019
I'll devils advocate myself.

I've argued about unfulfilled character arcs and wasted plot lines, but if there's one thing the almost perfect early seasons showed it's that characters don't always find the ending they 'deserve'. Surely this applies to good and bad? Robb and Ned were stopped in their tracks with the goal in sight, why not the Night King?
Are they comparable?

Ned's death: double crossed and executed by Joffrey after admitting guilt.
Dumb move to trust the Lannisters, but the build up is there. Ned has motivation to put himself into the trap, saving his family and his life. Joffrey has form, already shown to be cruel and unstable.
And the payoff from a narrative point of view, it sets the tone, it triggers bigger and better things for the story. From this the Starks go to war, Sansa is imprisoned, and Arya is abandoned and traumatised.
It doesn't feel like anything is unresolved as a result of Ned's death though, the big mysteries of Jon Arryn and the Lannister betrayals come to their conclusion.
Motives, form, payoff.

Robb's death: another double cross, at the hands of the Frey lord he reneged on.
The trap is obvious but the motive again makes it necessary, he needs the Freys or his war ends. He is paying for his own mistakes and perceived betrayals. On the other side there's form, the Freys are known dirtbags, Tywin and Rose scheming behind the scenes.
The payoff is harder to understand. It wipes the Starks almost off the board, removes numerous main characters. It pushes the last 'good guys' into total desperation and opens the game up for Stannis, Roose, Dany and others.

So the Night Kings fall.
Why is it different? The same rules should apply to all characters, evil should be able to fall as hard as good.
Form: Arya has trained, has all the skills necessary. Bran has the pieces in place where they need to be, gives them the information and the tools. From this side of things it's a decent enough set up.
Motive: THIS is what I can't get behind. Why does NK step into the trap?Where's the urgent need? The previous episodes spiel about Bran holding all knowledge isn't enough. Too late, too flimsy, too many obvious ways around it. Nor is arrogance an adequate explanation, total cop-out to have the 8000 year old basically demigod to have the same weakness as f**king Littlefinger.
Why not have him slaughtered by walkers or thralls? Why the almost monologue? Why not win the battle then finish him up?
This is what makes it feel cheap, and this is what needs to be answered to give the payoff any kind of weight. Previous huge twists didn't require guesswork or wait-and-see, the motives and pieces were all in the open.
There's only 3 episodes to wrap up. Will they devote any minutes to looking backwards to the NK and his armies? Don't think so.

A bit more of an exploration as to why he was after Bran/ would’ve been good
It wasn’t completely shoehorned in, NK did come for Bran when he marked him during his stay in the cave with the 3 eyed raven
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
28,284
For Miguel Sapochnik, the director’s goal was to get fans utterly convinced Jon was going to kill the Night King, and then pull out the rug. “I thought, ‘Hmm, if I see Arya running then I know she’s going to do something.’” Sapochnik says. “So it’s about almost losing her from the story and then have her come in as a surprise and pinning all our hopes on Jon being the guy going to do it — because Jon’s always the guy. So we follow Jon in a continuous shot I want the audience to think: ‘Jon’s gonna do it, Jon’s gonna do it…’ and then he fails. He fails at the very last minute. So I’m hoping that’s a nice switch that no one sees coming.“

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/28/game-thrones-maisie-williams-winterfell-battle/

For the twist!
 

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