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Gold Coast Bears/Nth Sydney/Gosford

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,553
The facts are being forwarded and Im pretty sure playing numbers for junior males has been declining for decades. But the North Sydney area more so due to the abandonement look with the Bears exit.
lol, If we had the facts you would be certain :)

Good information PR. However it doesn't show the decline in player numbers for a junior club like Asquith. That is an alarming drop in numbers and basically coinciding since the Bears demise.

Its impossible to get them stats as the clubs don't publish number of teams or registered players or historic data sadly.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
I keep asking but no one can give me reference to show what the drop off has been and if this drop is unique to NS or if it has been seen across other districts as well, indicating there would be other variables other than just the relegation of the Bears? Anecdotes are all well and good but evidence is better.

You have a point about other reasons. And to support this Il give you the basic figures for the local club Im associated with in Newcastle. In the early 70s this club had juniors numbering 500 to 600 players from under 7s through to under19s. It gradually decreased to 400 -450 by the 90s & 2000s. Today the junior numbers total 250. My main reasoning for the decline is two-fold. The introduction of local senior Sunday football from 1970 onwards which has made the code less attractive to play for younger people as Saturday night is compromised. And the other city based clubs adopting the same home Sunday game scheduling. As a result of this junior numbers in the inner city clubs has decreased with parents/juniors having to travel further for their kids to play. Whats happened whilst this decrease has been going on is that rugby union junior numbers have increased due to this code basically playing on socially appealing Saturdays. The parents of union juniors don't have to travel as far as often and they become more socially connected on a local basis into the future. Their are other causes but these two stand out and coincide with the disturbing and consistent trend over the past 4 decades in this area. Furthermore the junior numbers for the outer district clubs that play home games on Saturdays are strong and this year these areas were featured in the Under19s grandfinal.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,553
You have a point about other reasons. And to support this Il give you the basic figures for the local club Im associated with in Newcastle. In the early 70s this club had juniors numbering 500 to 600 players from under 7s through to under19s. It gradually decreased to 400 -450 by the 90s & 2000s. Today the junior numbers total 250. My main reasoning for the decline is two-fold. The introduction of local senior Sunday football from 1970 onwards which has made the code less attractive to play for younger people as Saturday night is compromised. And the other city based clubs adopting the same home Sunday game scheduling. As a result of this junior numbers in the inner city clubs has decreased with parents/juniors having to travel further for their kids to play. Whats happened whilst this decrease has been going on is that rugby union junior numbers have increased due to this code basically playing on socially appealing Saturdays. The parents of union juniors don't have to travel as far as often and they become more socially connected on a local basis into the future. Their are other causes but these two stand out and coincide with the disturbing and consistent trend over the past 4 decades in this area.

So its not unique to NS. Makes trying to determine how impacting losing the Bears on Jnr numbers in the district has been even harder then.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
So its not unique to NS. Makes trying to determine how impacting losing the Bears on Jnr numbers in the district has been even harder then.

Common sense would link that the Bears exiting the top flight didnt help the code in this competitive area of Sydney. 8 is a very low junior club number! But yes I believe poor development work/targeting is the main reason for East Roosters poor junior club numbers. Fixable but dissappointing.
 

Stormwarrior82

Juniors
Messages
1,036
Better still ask why AFL has grown so well in the North Sydney area, soccer and union holding its own to a degree,since the Bears were flicked.
Just a mere coincidence? Or because kids in that are don't have a local team to aspire?
Why would local volunteers be interested?
If they were all going to other NRL clubs, we wouldn't have crowd drops.
Ask South Sydney fans what they did when they were flicked, did they all troop over watching the Roosters or Tigers?

In my work I've met former Bears' fans ,some who gave the code away , or went to union, even a couple who went to the Swans.
Hell it even happened with joint venture teams .I know of three instances(2 with the Dragons and one with the Tigers) with people I know ,who couldn't handle the loss of their trad. club, despite it having some hold.

You can argue reasonably, but that's only a few.But the point is that's people I know of, a sample.The facts are Nth Sydney is less of a rl area,than it ever was.Do we blame global warming? Or Peter Hankiehead?

PR wouldn't have a clue (tucked away thousands of kms from reality)about the way people feel attached to their clubs in Sydney attendance wise,emotionally or traditionally.Just an armchair general throwing pins on maps, the maps of Perth.

There was a guy named Geoff Prenter( respected journalist and a rusted on rugby league man, who started Rugby League Week.When Super league came to fruition, he flicked the code, started following and still does ,the Swans.Only cursory interest in the game now.
Ask yourself why John Stanley(2UE) another Dragon's tragic, sprouts GWS more than he does the Dragons.

Rugby league has done its rationalisation, with 2 joint ventures, one flicked in Sydney.That therefor has affected more clubs here than Melbourne with their AFL relocations.

Continuing to whiteant your main base will bring the whole shebang crumbling, leaving the competition to pick up the pieces.

The afl has had a bazillion $$ spent in Sydney that’s how they have improved. Hardly mind blowing stuff. But I would also say that the numbers quoted are misleading when auskick is included and we can’t do the same for touch. I’d like to see the actual figures on all 4 sports for funding and player numbers for North Sydney first. Northsydney bears aren’t dead. People can still support them. Maybe they can ask their parents to put there toys back in the cot?

I no doubt accept losing Ns bears from the Nrl would of put a few people off but if they weren’t paid members which I feel is the majority then I have no time for them. The reason I have barely any sympathy for them is because the issues you and stallion and others raise are the same things that qrl/brl teams like valleys, brothers, wests never got when the arl should of properly expanded back in the 80/90’s. Admitting 1 brisbane team and a Gold Coast team from a 12 plus team brl comp isn’t forward thinking or even fair from a qld point of view.
Geoff Prenter and John Stanley are both w@nkers then!! I guess they weren’t as rusted on rugby league fans as you thought? Clearly follow the money.... good story though.

I know this guy (state) called qld and he loved rugby league so much they had there own 12-16 team comp but were only allowed to teams worth of players in the Nrl. But instead of throwing there toys out of the cot they used it as a reason to become the best State of origin dynasty that will ever be.

If the bears want to be taken seriously they should of had all these backers they always talk of, put some money where there mouth was and help fund programs, leagues, players, CoE etc. instead they have chosen to neglect central coast and there own backyard. How that’s to show the Nrl your bid team will survive.

When all the proposals get put on your table as a ceo of the Nrl and you go through history, funding, backing, expansion, grassroots, playing numbers, gov support, I would be taking Perth and Brisbane 2 and even a qld/Brisbane 3, nz2 all before another Sydney team. Maybe in 20-30yrs time when Sydney might need another team it won’t be an issue because all the bears supporters would be 90.
 

Stormwarrior82

Juniors
Messages
1,036
There is no question ns bears suffered from demotion due to there own internal financial issues.

There is also no doubt that they have neglected there areas.

I also support the Sydney teams that are currently in the Nrl. I have no problem with that at all.

But at no point in the foreseeable future should there be another Sydney team.

If a Sydney team does struggle a relegation system could work. However I feel it would be a rotating turnstile with the same teams in and out of the Nrl. Until 2nd tier comps have CoE etc 2nd tier clubs can’t/won’t compete.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
There is no question ns bears suffered from demotion due to there own internal financial issues.

There is also no doubt that they have neglected there areas.

I also support the Sydney teams that are currently in the Nrl. I have no problem with that at all.

But at no point in the foreseeable future should there be another Sydney team.

If a Sydney team does struggle a relegation system could work. However I feel it would be a rotating turnstile with the same teams in and out of the Nrl. Until 2nd tier comps have CoE etc 2nd tier clubs can’t/won’t compete.

Would suggest a few things conspired against the Bears for their ousting. One being a News ltd executive appointed to administer the club with some disastrous decisions during his tenure. Instead of having the NS Bears as an outright loss to the game, I still see a viable and exponential growth for the Bears based in the Central Coast. The regaining of the influential NS CBD and rebuilding of North Sydney playing numbers and fanbase are win/wins . Not too mention a long overdue RL presence in Gosford. It's logical but don't let that convince you!
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,429
Thought it'd be interesting to take a look at Jnr club numbers across Sydney districts:

Penrith 22
Parramatta 21
Cronulla 17
Souths 16
Wests 15
Canterbury 14
Balmain 12
Manly 12
St George 9
NS 8
Roosters 4 (+ 16 CC Jnr clubs)
Total 150 Jnr clubs

Union 60 Jnr clubs
AFL 46 Jnr clubs

Interestingly there is a page set up for a joint Manly/NS District that isn't active yet, is that the plan?
http://websites.sportstg.com/select_node.cgi?cID=1302&p=7

WA has 18 Jnr clubs & Victoria has 17 Jnr clubs but wouldn't have anywhere near as many teams in each club as the Sydney clubs have.

Not very convincing.Central Coast also has a large number of juniors.
There are club numbers and there are numbers of players within those clubs.You can have 20 clubs with 20 teams ,and 10 clubs with 50.Perhaps check the clubs and numbers prior to the Bear's demise ,and the number of AFL clubs in the NSO area.
You can throw up any figures you wish.It does not alter the situation North Sydney does not now have an ARL or NRL team.The premier team in an area.It once did an area of near 750,000.Their fans do not attend other NRL clubs in numbers, else clubs nearest would have larger crowds not lesser crowds.

The facts are( and you can throw any stat you wish from left field.)AFL has grown substantially in that area, the junior numbers are well down on their ARL days, the loss of that club has not benefitted the rest of the NRL clubs in Sydney.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,429
The afl has had a bazillion $$ spent in Sydney that’s how they have improved. Hardly mind blowing stuff. But I would also say that the numbers quoted are misleading when auskick is included and we can’t do the same for touch. I’d like to see the actual figures on all 4 sports for funding and player numbers for North Sydney first. Northsydney bears aren’t dead. People can still support them. Maybe they can ask their parents to put there toys back in the cot?

I no doubt accept losing Ns bears from the Nrl would of put a few people off but if they weren’t paid members which I feel is the majority then I have no time for them. The reason I have barely any sympathy for them is because the issues you and stallion and others raise are the same things that qrl/brl teams like valleys, brothers, wests never got when the arl should of properly expanded back in the 80/90’s. Admitting 1 brisbane team and a Gold Coast team from a 12 plus team brl comp isn’t forward thinking or even fair from a qld point of view.
Geoff Prenter and John Stanley are both w@nkers then!! I guess they weren’t as rusted on rugby league fans as you thought? Clearly follow the money.... good story though.

I know this guy (state) called qld and he loved rugby league so much they had there own 12-16 team comp but were only allowed to teams worth of players in the Nrl. But instead of throwing there toys out of the cot they used it as a reason to become the best State of origin dynasty that will ever be.

If the bears want to be taken seriously they should of had all these backers they always talk of, put some money where there mouth was and help fund programs, leagues, players, CoE etc. instead they have chosen to neglect central coast and there own backyard. How that’s to show the Nrl your bid team will survive.

When all the proposals get put on your table as a ceo of the Nrl and you go through history, funding, backing, expansion, grassroots, playing numbers, gov support, I would be taking Perth and Brisbane 2 and even a qld/Brisbane 3, nz2 all before another Sydney team. Maybe in 20-30yrs time when Sydney might need another team it won’t be an issue because all the bears supporters would be 90.


Correct,They have a gazillion.And guess what, that gazillion, is far more effective to use in attack, when your competition is weakened.Their results in that area have shown that to be the case.

Ask that idiot who wears a Red Bandana FitzSimons,he has stated the AFL has made big inroads in the private schools in the NS area to the detriment of ru in those schools.One involving his former school Knox Grammar.
When the Bears had the Leagues club behind them a decent supporter base ,and more juniors running around, it would have been a harder task for AFL than it currently is.

And rest assured the removal of additional NRL clubs ,will be a godsend to that code.
No NRL team, no incentive.

Mate we've been over this.The Bear's fans do not support lower grade teams in numbers, that supported their first grade side.A pithy number.
"Put a few people off".Well they certainly are not attending other NRL clubs or rushing to watch lower grades in numbers.
I repeat one more time, where did the South's fans go ,when they were flicked?Not to other clubs.Are they all wankers?

It's very easy to call any one a wanker it's bloody immature to do so,unless of course it happens to be your club dumped.A club you have put time, effort,money in over the decades.Seriously mate you have little idea about ,about the loss of a club and the impact it has..

And should I lose my club after supporting them for decades, and see no interest in following another club,you are going to call me a wanker?And I am hardly unique in that regard.

I am an expansionist and Internationalist.I am not a club killer for the sake of expansion.The AFL realise it now ,especially after they tried a joint venture involving Hawthorn.Clubs will get the flick,should they become basket cases.The NRL will not underpin any more clubs.

BTW I am not suggesting another Sydney team.I am more than happy with Perth and another brisbane side.I will tell you this if I were CEO of the NRL,I would not be disenfranchising any more NRL fansin Sydney,to give the comepetition a free ride, and because people/fans actually matter,maybe you don't think so.

The Bear's had no incentive from NRL head office ,to spend money in large amounts in the NS or the CC,,because they had a more than a fair idea it was a lost cause.

It's rather ironic you mention that.In the early years at least until about 2008/2010,junior rl was neglected by News who owned the Storm in Victoria.

Sydney has 9 NRL clubs,2 AFL clubs,2 A league and 1 Super union.It has always had a mix off sports ,in a far more competitive environment than Melbourne,where it's fumbleball and daylight second.
 
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Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Not very convincing.Central Coast also has a large number of juniors.
There are club numbers and there are numbers of players within those clubs.You can have 20 clubs with 20 teams ,and 10 clubs with 50.Perhaps check the clubs and numbers prior to the Bear's demise ,and the number of AFL clubs in the NSO area.
You can throw up any figures you wish.It does not alter the situation North Sydney does not now have an ARL or NRL team.The premier team in an area.It once did an area of near 750,000.Their fans do not attend other NRL clubs in numbers, else clubs nearest would have larger crowds not lesser crowds.

The facts are( and you can throw any stat you wish from left field.)AFL has grown substantially in that area, the junior numbers are well down on their ARL days, the loss of that club has not benefitted the rest of the NRL clubs in Sydney.

Spot on Taipan! The weakening of the code of rugby league well and truelly in action. Being in its original area is an even more disturbing reality. North Sydney were an original club of this great Sydney based competition. The white anting of rugby league continues!
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Correct,They have a gazillion.And guess what, that gazillion, is far more effective to use in attack, when your competition is weakened.Their results in that area have shown that to be the case.

Ask that idiot who wears a Red Bandana FitzSimons,he has stated the AFL has made big inroads in the private schools in the NS area to the detriment of ru in those schools.One involving his former school Knox Grammar.
When the Bears had the Leagues club behind them a decent supporter base ,and more juniors running around, it would have been a harder task for AFL than it currently is.

And rest assured the removal of additional NRL clubs ,will be a godsend to that code.
No NRL team, no incentive.

Mate we've been over this.The Bear's fans do not support lower grade teams in numbers, that supported their first grade side.A pithy number.
"Put a few people off".Well they certainly are not attending other NRL clubs or rushing to watch lower grades in numbers.
I repeat one more time, where did the South's fans go ,when they were flicked?Not to other clubs.Are they all wankers?

It's very easy to call any one a wanker it's bloody immature to do so,unless of course it happens to be your club dumped.A club you have put time, effort,money in over the decades.Seriously mate you have little idea about ,about the loss of a club and the impact it has..

And should I lose my club after supporting them for decades, and see no interest in following another club,you are going to call me a wanker?And I am hardly unique in that regard.

I am an expansionist and Internationalist.I am not a club killer for the sake of expansion.The AFL realise it now ,especially after they tried a joint venture involving Hawthorn.Clubs will get the flick,should they become basket cases.The NRL will not underpin any more clubs.

BTW I am not suggesting another Sydney team.I am more than happy with Perth and another brisbane side.I will tell you this if I were CEO of the NRL,I would not be disenfranchising any more NRL fansin Sydney,to give the come potion a free ride, and because people 9fans actually matter,maybe you don't think so.

The Bear's had no incentive from NRL head office ,to spend money in large amounts in the NS or the CC,,because they had a more than fair idea it was a lost cause.

It's rather ironic you mention that.In the early years at least until about 2008/2010,junior rl was neglected by News who owned the Storm in Victoria.

Sydney has 9 NRL clubs,2 AFL clubs,2 A league and 1 Super union.It has always had a mix off sports ,in a far more competitive environment than Melbourne,where it's fumbleball and daylight second.

Just a side point to the private schools accepting AFL in the North Shore/North Sydney area. No one ever questions why rugby league doesn't have such a presence in private schools. It's as if its an expected private school outcome!? This fact is a constant against the code of rugby league and should be challenged, questioned and remedied. It's another example of unfairness toward rugby league with other codes benefitting. You don't see Fitzimmons championing the quest for rugby league to be given a presence in private schools !? No. That very poignant and ignored fact goes through to the keeper again and again!
 
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Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
Spot on Taipan! The weakening of the code of rugby league well and truelly in action. Being in its original area is an even more disturbing reality. North Sydney were an original club of this great Sydney based competition. The white anting of rugby league continues!

Sydney isn’t an original area of rugby league.
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,275
What were the numbers? I keep asking lol
AFL has more clubs right across Sydney, why? Because they have pumped tens of millions of development $'s into the city. If we had spent the same in Melbourne there'd be a good chance we would have a lot more than 17 Jnr RL clubs in Victoria!

Its not quite as simplistic as you try to make it sound...

Will more money put into junior development lead to more junior players? Of course...

But if RL and AFL spent the exact same amount of money AFL would still attract more juniors because of the difference in the physical nature of the two games...

RL has never been the most popular sport played by juniors in Sydney since about the 1960's... when I was growing up on Sydney in the 80's, soccer had more junior numbers than RL in Sydney...

I have often said that its not only about the raw numbers playing the game, but making sure that RL can continue to offer talented young kids that are suited to playing the game more money than other potential sports they might be good at...
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,429
Its not quite as simplistic as you try to make it sound...

Will more money put into junior development lead to more junior players? Of course...

But if RL and AFL spent the exact same amount of money AFL would still attract more juniors because of the difference in the physical nature of the two games...

RL has never been the most popular sport played by juniors in Sydney since about the 1960's... when I was growing up on Sydney in the 80's, soccer had more junior numbers than RL in Sydney....

Absolutely spot on.Soccer has always had a huge junior base because of the mum control.
And making the situation harder ,when you have kids playing other kids(built like Abrams tanks) yet of the same age.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Its not quite as simplistic as you try to make it sound...

Will more money put into junior development lead to more junior players? Of course...

But if RL and AFL spent the exact same amount of money AFL would still attract more juniors because of the difference in the physical nature of the two games...

RL has never been the most popular sport played by juniors in Sydney since about the 1960's... when I was growing up on Sydney in the 80's, soccer had more junior numbers than RL in Sydney...

I have often said that its not only about the raw numbers playing the game, but making sure that RL can continue to offer talented young kids that are suited to playing the game more money than other potential sports they might be good at...

Rugby league hasnt sold the code well enough to Mums and Dads. The contact is a strength both physical and intellectual. But the game is not sold that way. Great qualities of commitment, self confidence and physical skill with endurance are not highlighted as virtues associated with playing rugby league. Rugby league type games like leaguetag should be in all primary schools and a PSSA sport. But this sort of development tact is not happening? Why? Poor development officers with little direction and proactiveness. And no doubt poorly funded will be an excuse also.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,553
Its not quite as simplistic as you try to make it sound...

Will more money put into junior development lead to more junior players? Of course...

But if RL and AFL spent the exact same amount of money AFL would still attract more juniors because of the difference in the physical nature of the two games...

RL has never been the most popular sport played by juniors in Sydney since about the 1960's... when I was growing up on Sydney in the 80's, soccer had more junior numbers than RL in Sydney...

I have often said that its not only about the raw numbers playing the game, but making sure that RL can continue to offer talented young kids that are suited to playing the game more money than other potential sports they might be good at...

Touch addresses this and in all likelihood with the way society is going will be the main form of RL in the future with just a few players who like the physical stuff left in full contact. NRL knows this, its why they are paying millions to be co branded with touch. Maybe we should start readjusting our measurements of Jnr reach to include touch given this is and will increasingly be the main for of RL played by kids?

There are many many reasons why less kids play RL now, some can be addressed by better funding and better systems, others cant such as societies risk aversion and general lack of kids playing tough sports these days.

Don't agree with the AFL v RL spend comment. My experience is kids take up a sport for a number of reasons
1. Availability - is it played near by or at school
2. Fandom - Kids love worshipping star players. The bigger the profile of the star the more likely the kid will want to emulate them in that sport
3. Peers - kids play what their mates play
4. Profile - the higher profile a sport has the more likely kids will want to play it
5. Parent pressure - Usually only up to around 10 or 11 then the kid wants to pay what they want to play
6. Ability- Kids will want to play what they are good at because they enjoy success. In RL by time you hit 8 or 9 the physicality of the game starts to kick in and there is a self selection for kids who like the rough stuff and those who don't who will drift off to soccer or lessor degree AFL.

Very multi faceted and only some things the NRL can do to improve in some areas.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,553
Rugby league hasnt sold the code well enough to Mums and Dads. The contact is a strength both physical and intellectual. But the game is not sold that way. Great qualities of commitment, self confidence and physical skill with endurance are not highlighted as virtues associated with playing rugby league. Rugby league type games like leaguetag should be in all primary schools and a PSSA sport. But this sort of development tact is not happening? Why? Poor development officers with little direction and proactiveness. And no doubt poorly funded will be an excuse also.

Agreed, it needs a major marketing campaign aimed at parents espousing the virtues of the game and the qualities it develops in kids. As an example they should have taken some of the amazing footage from the RLWC of players embracing, fans celebrating together, cultures being respected and honoured etc and spliced it with some kids footage to show what RL is really about.

Sadly every merkin NRL player who fcks up sets this back light years.
 
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