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Gold Coast Bears/Nth Sydney/Gosford

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,307
Thats the difference between the positive and realistic people and the destructionist/no idea lobby: these clubs would easily generate extra value and income. Although the WA franchise may need some extra formative development. The other two areas are already rugby league established areas crying out for a top flight club! Is that what the pioneers of the code stated when they started this breakaway and popular football competition in 1908? No they were of the mind "Lets do this ! These union people aren't doing the players or the fans any favours! Let's get a better and more lucrative game of rugby happening! A rugby league! " And they did. Sure their was some backing from prudent business people and the same can easily be generated in anticipation of at least two more clubs that are adding value/fans and viewership to this great competition which has stagnated due to poor administrators that have been sitting on their hands and missappropriating funds.

This is $45mill the nrl needs to earn to pay for them, not the clubs. No more tv money until 2023 so where’s the nrl cost going to be taken from? Less grassroots? Less digital?
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
This is $45mill the nrl needs to earn to pay for them, not the clubs. No more tv money until 2023 so where’s the nrl cost going to be taken from? Less grassroots? Less digital?

You do realise this is relevant for the next tv deal? Not now. Plans are made in advance and that is what is intended I suggest. More teams equal more value. And to lobour the point these are not outlandish logistical nightmares. We are discussing much needed and easily set up clubs in rugby league areas. The only area that you is not so is Perth and hopefully a decent niche market is being developed over in the west.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Every rugby league administration from the mid 80’s until the 2000’s knew there was too many Sydney clubs, that it was stunting expansion and that the league needed to be around 14 clubs. This administration knows it as well, they’re just too pss weak to publicly acknowledge it and now we no longer have any sembilence of an independent commision they never will. Nrl will reap what it sows.

Stallion take a look at the roaring success of the bbl, a sport traditionally with a poor spectator base for state cricket to see that you don’t need 100 year old clubs to be succesful!

Except no established clubs were flicked in the BBL .A new refined comp,with all new teams.Guess what SL tried that and the result/?????? And we know the result of the sowing of those seeds.Just about the destruction of the game, and a big thank you to AFL and to a lesser degree union (who became openly pro).
The A league is hardly a Roaring (sic)success ATM.

The AFL approach now appears to be the wisest.expand and retain the clubs you have.There are too many other competing codes just waiting to take advantage of disillusioned fans who lose a club.I think Beattie also knows it.
 

Stormwarrior82

Juniors
Messages
1,036
Amazingly innept and negative response. Lets get this clear we are including three well populated (one the biggest in OZ) regions not one! We are looking at an area which is both geographically expansive and with a population that is at least a million people more than the population in Melbourne/Geelong! And you still talk of imploding the core of the already damaged Sydney clubs (with surrounds included) base of this competition?!! Absolutely reckless and ignorant! And you can't count or compare!

Haha inept and negative? I asked you a simple question and you go on a rant like that? did you even read my question?

I think you overstate the impact of Sydney clubs. But I’m happy to disagree on that point. If for whatever reason the bears were added after Perth and Brisbane 2 and then a Sydney club went under? What do you propose should happen? Just curious?

??
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
Except no established clubs were flicked in the BBL .A new refined comp,with all new teams.Guess what SL tried that and the result/?????? And we know the result of the sowing of those seeds.Just about the destruction of the game, and a big thank you to AFL and to a lesser degree union (who became openly pro).
The A league is hardly a Roaring (sic)success ATM.

The AFL approach now appears to be the wisest.expand and retain the clubs you have.There are too many other competing codes just waiting to take advantage of disillusioned fans who lose a club.I think Beattie also knows it.

Lol.

And why did SL fail?

Cause the Sydney Mafia did everything in their power to kill it and keep control over the sport...

Comparing the BBL to SL is massive false equivalency, then again nearly every time that SL is brought up in these discussions it's a massive false equivalency...
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Lol.

And why did SL fail?

Cause the Sydney Mafia did everything in their power to kill it and keep control over the sport...

Comparing the BBL to SL is massive false equivalency, then again nearly every time that SL is brought up in these discussions it's a massive false equivalency...

If you don't know why SL failed .I can't help you.Try lack of public support for starters.I attended the first game at the SFS BTW.The Newcastle example is a classic Knights and Mariners,never going to succeed.
When SL reared its head, SL crowds in particular dropped off in 1996.

Well they(the Sydney"mafia" )didn't succeed the extent as you suggested ,as News owned half until recently.The same News that brought in the Storm,financially backed the Broncos.The same News that accepted the removal of the Reds,Mariners and Rams in exchange for Crushers and eventually ,not directly the Bears and eventually joint ventures.The same News that screwed the code on TV deals, despite any Sydney Mafia.The Sydney Mafia were hardly world beaters with their efforts.The traditional clubs 4 of them ,became joint ventures.

BS .if one brings in the BBL as PR did ,to prove a point,then the comparison is apt.
One a complete new comp/game involving no traditional clubs, and one with.There is SFA tradition with the BBL.It is obviously a great new concept.

SL is brought up often, as that episode had a big impact on the code for many years, as well as assisting other codes ATT.To ignore the fact ,is to ignore reality.Or living on another planet.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
His question is a fair question and a good one at that, you should answer it.

Let me restate it for you- if a Sydney club was to fold today what do you think should happen?

Bring in the Bears and work on getting that club back in the top flight. The market of over 6 million is too big to weaken. Once again for the dummies: 3 cities are included in this scenario. They are Wollongong, Gosford and Sydney (Australias largest) . These areas have only 9 teams (wait a sec!) Gosfords not even in the picture! How ridiculous. Potentially 3 cities/regions for only 9 Sydney clubs? Throw in North Sydney Bears and we have 10 in 3 massive regions. Do the math mate. Im sure the AFL are doing their maths and are crossing their fingers your logic is taken seriously. They have 10 clubs with a million less people. Go figure please! The established clubs are gold and when you tamper with gold you get dirt.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
If you don't know why SL failed .I can't help you.Try lack of public support for starters.I attended the first game at the SFS BTW.The Newcastle example is a classic Knights and Mariners,never going to succeed.
When SL reared its head, SL crowds in particular dropped off in 1996.

Public support had nothing to do with... The SL concept had failed 6 months before the public even really knew what it was, it had failed before News and Ribot started signing clubs and players in 95.

Do you even know what the original plan for SL was? If not I'll give you the short version-

The initial plan for SL was to create a 14 team national competition that would exist on top of the ARL/NSWRL, all the ARL clubs would own shares in one of the 14 clubs, which would be one city clubs with the exception of Sydney that would have 4 clubs, the "super clubs" would be focused on the corporate side of the business and would basically be run like the Broncos. So in effect the idea was to create an American style 'franchise' based competition that used the ARL as a feeder comp.

It would be backed and completely underwritten by News but it'd be administered in tandem with the ARL, in other words they'd work together to create an all new competition (that was how News would get the rights for it legally, they'd create an all new product of a higher standard and the ARL would continue as intended underneath fulfilling the leagues agreements with Packer, for the sake of brevity I'll leave the detail at that.

The idea was presented to Arko and Quayle and they were obliged to allow News to present it to the clubs, they did this at a meeting a short time afterwards where Arko and Quayle lead the agenda, they rubbished the idea before it was even presented, made out that it threatened the existence of some of the clubs (take a guess at which ones) when in fact they (Arko and Quayle) planned to reduce the numbers in Sydney and not SL who planned to make them all partners in SL, then they allowed the News representatives to make their case, which by News' own admission didn't turnout to be the best presentation they'd ever given with all sorts of things going wrong and them completely misjudging what would interest most of the clubs (they presented the business plan instead of selling them with pomp and circumstance), after News made their presentation they were shuffled out and Kerry Packer was shuffled in, which is not normal practice, and he fear mongered and threaten to "sue the pants" off everybody in the room if they agreed to News proposal even though it had no impact on any of his dealings with the ARL or the clubs at the time.

That all happened in late 94!

That was the original SL plan and the old guard in Sydney didn't even give it a fair hearing, they completely disregarded it as soon as they heard that they wouldn't have complete control over the administration of the game and that their clubs wouldn't necessarily be at the top, they didn't consider the positives and negatives at all and completely threw it out through self interest...

What became Sl wasn't the SL plan, it was News seeing an opportunity to still get what they wanted and a backlash from a group of clubs that felt that they were being completely ignored and treated like second class citizens (which they were) who were also desperate cause due to ARLs' business practices and double standards was sending them broke...

Well they(the Sydney"mafia" )didn't succeed the extent as you suggested ,as News owned half until recently.The same News that brought in the Storm,financially backed the Broncos.The same News that accepted the removal of the Reds,Mariners and Rams in exchange for Crushers and eventually ,not directly the Bears and eventually joint ventures.The same News that screwed the code on TV deals, despite any Sydney Mafia.The Sydney Mafia were hardly world beaters with their efforts.The traditional clubs 4 of them ,became joint ventures.

See now you are talking about two different things, you are conflating the success of the SL to the success of News, those are two very different things.

News' goals in RL was always the same, to have an owning share in the sport and to get the pay tv rights and they succeeded in getting them, initially it was going to be cheaper and easier to do that through SL, but when that didn't workout they got it in other ways, namely the NRL.

SL's goals were very different, they were to change the way that the sport was administer and presented and to make it a more marketable and ultimately more profitable product, in theory anyway.

Both SL and News were using each other as a means to an end.

BTW, the ARL agreed to all of the things you presented above as well (had a bigger hand in a lot of them too), and the peace deals and the NRL were still a better outcome then pushing ahead with the ARL as it was, if we'd pushed ahead with the ARL as it was then it's almost certain that apart from the Broncos every club outside of Sydney would have gone broke before 2005, the Knights, Raiders, Reds, Cowboys and Warriors would definitely be gone the rest would almost certainly have followed, and a good chunk of the Sydney clubs (including yours) would have followed...

BS .if one brings in the BBL as PR did ,to prove a point,then the comparison is apt.
One a complete new comp/game involving no traditional clubs, and one with.There is SFA tradition with the BBL.It is obviously a great new concept.

Uh huh, but it's still a massive false equivalency to compare the BBL to SL cause A: SL ended up as an attempt at a hostile takeover of the administration of the sport and the BBL is and always was a CA backed competition that is run and administered by CA, B: BBL wasn't created by a group of disenfranchised stakeholders within it's system with the assistance of a huge media company financially backing it, and C: the BBL had no interference by media companies in it's creation and hasn't been and probably never will become a pawn in a bigger struggle between two large media companies.

The situations aren't even close to equivalent, not in the slightest.

SL is brought up often, as that episode had a big impact on the code for many years, as well as assisting other codes ATT.To ignore the fact ,is to ignore reality.Or living on another planet.

I'm not ignoring SL, just saying that the BBL is't equivalent to it...
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
Bring in the Bears and work on getting that club back in the top flight. The market of over 6 million is too big to weaken. Once again for the dummies: 3 cities are included in this scenario. They are Wollongong, Gosford and Sydney (Australias largest) . These areas have only 9 teams (wait a sec!) Gosfords not even in the picture! How ridiculous. Potentially 3 cities/regions for only 9 Sydney clubs? Throw in North Sydney Bears and we have 10 in 3 massive regions. Do the math mate. Im sure the AFL are doing their maths and are crossing their fingers your logic is taken seriously. They have 10 clubs with a million less people. Go figure please! The established clubs are gold and when you tamper with gold you get dirt.

That doesn't answer the question in the slightest...

Lets try again- Say that today the Roosters folded what should be the NRLs' response to that in your opinion?
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
That doesn't answer the question in the slightest...

Lets try again- Say that today the Roosters folded what should be the NRLs' response to that in your opinion?

Bring in the Bears! That's an answer champ. Sydney and the other two cities (Wollongong &Gosford)are underepresented in rugby league courtesy of short sighted administrators stemming from the Super League fiasco. It's not the answer you want but its an answer. And in addition work proactively to reenter the lost club into the future. All logical and not reckless.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,307
If you don't know why SL failed .I can't help you.Try lack of public support for starters.I attended the first game at the SFS BTW.The Newcastle example is a classic Knights and Mariners,never going to succeed.
When SL reared its head, SL crowds in particular dropped off in 1996.

Well they(the Sydney"mafia" )didn't succeed the extent as you suggested ,as News owned half until recently.The same News that brought in the Storm,financially backed the Broncos.The same News that accepted the removal of the Reds,Mariners and Rams in exchange for Crushers and eventually ,not directly the Bears and eventually joint ventures.The same News that screwed the code on TV deals, despite any Sydney Mafia.The Sydney Mafia were hardly world beaters with their efforts.The traditional clubs 4 of them ,became joint ventures.

BS .if one brings in the BBL as PR did ,to prove a point,then the comparison is apt.
One a complete new comp/game involving no traditional clubs, and one with.There is SFA tradition with the BBL.It is obviously a great new concept.

SL is brought up often, as that episode had a big impact on the code for many years, as well as assisting other codes ATT.To ignore the fact ,is to ignore reality.Or living on another planet.

Ironically 1997 was one of Cronulla best ever seasons for crowds!
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,307
hey have 10 clubs with a million less people. Go figure please! The established clubs are gold and when you tamper with gold you get dirt.

Do you think if you say it enough people will actually believe Geelong is in Melbourne? Lol
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Do you think if you say it enough people will actually believe Geelong is in Melbourne? Lol

I put that in because when I've included Wollongong and Gosford as part of the Sydney equation people like you have come up with Geelong for the Melbourne scenario. So thought Id include it out of fairness. Nevertheless some 6million plus market in Sydney & surrounds (with 9 NRL clubs) compared to 4.5million in Melbourne & surrounds (with 10 AFL clubs). Theirs some rough figures for you . Work it out!
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,307
I put that in because when I've included Wollongong and Gosford as part of the Sydney equation people like you have come up with Geelong for the Melbourne scenario. So thought Id include it out of fairness. Nevertheless some 6million plus market in Sydney & surrounds (with 9 NRL clubs) compared to 4.5million in Melbourne & surrounds (with 10 AFL clubs). Theirs some rough figures for you . Work it out!

It’s a shame most of them 6million don’t follow rugby league! I hope your not a geography teacher!

Melbourne population 4.82million
Geelong 274k

And like I’ve said numerous times nine clubs in Melbourne is equally as unsustainable as 8.5 clubs in Sydney!
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
It’s a shame most of them 6million don’t follow rugby league! I hope your not a geography teacher!

Melbourne population 4.82million
Geelong 274k

And like I’ve said numerous times nine clubs in Melbourne is equally as unsustainable as 8.5 clubs in Sydney!

Ok. Lets give 5.1million with Melbourne & surrounds (10AFLclubs) compared to 6million plus in Sydney & surrounds (9NRLclubs). Do the maths! And your lack of calculating ability is only matched by your lack of positivity that the code of rugby league is not attractive enough to the public at large. I BELIEVE IT IS! When its (code)culturally relevant and about(local) the new fans will be drawn into the code. If you dismantle the already low number of clubs in greater Sydney then their is very little chance of capturing new fans. That's the way things like market popularity work. If you dilute your product you dilute your potential fan base, new ones included.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
Bring in the Bears! That's an answer champ.

So if a Sydney club folds we should replace them with the Bears...

That answer just begs so many more questions like why should we replace them with the Bears?
What is so magical about the Bears that they must be in comp at all costs, even if it costs another club?
Why do the Bears possess this magic but presumably the other clubs (including the Sydney clubs) don't?
Do you actually understand the question?
Do you understand any questions?

I'm afraid that again you have failed to answer the question, unless you truly believe that if a Sydney club falls over the Bears should take their place, which, from talking to you, I find hard to belive.
That of course begs another question, why are you dodging the question? or rather why do you dodge every question posed to you?

Sydney and the other two cities (Wollongong &Gosford)are underepresented in rugby league courtesy of short sighted administrators stemming from the Super League fiasco. It's not the answer you want but its an answer. And in addition work proactively to reenter the lost club into the future. All logical and not reckless.

Well that's an easy fix, and we don't need to add a club to fix it!

We simply move one of the Sydney clubs (probably Easts) up to the CC full time and move the Dragons to the Gong full time and problem solved!

That way all of "Sydney and the other two cities (Wollongong&Gosford)" are represented, and we've spread that representation out more evenly without using another valuable spot in the comp that we can ill afford to fix the problem.
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
Ok. Lets give 5.1million with Melbourne & surrounds (10AFLclubs) compared to 6million plus in Sydney & surrounds (9NRLclubs). Do the maths! And your lack of calculating ability is only matched by your lack of positivity that the code of rugby league is not attractive enough to the public at large. I BELIEVE IT IS! When its (code)culturally relevant and about(local) the new fans will be drawn into the code. If you dismantle the already low number of clubs in greater Sydney then their is very little chance of capturing new fans. That's the way things like market popularity work. If you dilute your product you dilute your potential fan base, new ones included.

Alright then I'll do the maths for you.

Due to the over saturation of the two markets in question artificially creating to much competition for the clubs in each city and competition respectively, three quarters of the clubs in Sydney and Melbourne aren't sustainable and have become anchors on their respective competitions that have severely stunted their growth and ability to support themselves!

There maths done.

I’ve done the maths, neither per person to club ratio is sustainable!

Yeah what he said!
 

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