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Gold Coast Bears/Nth Sydney/Gosford

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
So if a Sydney club folds we should replace them with the Bears...

That answer just begs so many more questions like why should we replace them with the Bears?
What is so magical about the Bears that they must be in comp at all costs, even if it costs another club?
Why do the Bears possess this magic but presumably the other clubs (including the Sydney clubs) don't?
Do you actually understand the question?
Do you understand any questions?

I'm afraid that again you have failed to answer the question, unless you truly believe that if a Sydney club falls over the Bears should take their place, which, from talking to you, I find hard to belive.
That of course begs another question, why are you dodging the question? or rather why do you dodge every question possed to you?



Well that's an easy fix, and we don't need to add a club to fix it!

We simply move one of the Sydney clubs (probably Easts) up to the CC full time and move the Dragons to the Gong full time and problem solved!

That way all of "Sydney and the other two cities (Wollongong&Gosford)" are represented, and we've spread that representation out more evenly without using another valuable spot in the comp that we can ill afford to fix the problem.

Once again your implosion logic coming through! You will not learn will you. Even despite the population figures and the reduced number of top flight clubs, you just see that this area is not being catered adequately for top flight rugby league! We will disagree. I dont suscribe to implosion of the code and you do. I've already mentioned Im fine with additional clubs yet fir whatevet flawed logic you continue the implosion obsession! That's you not me!
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Public support had nothing to do with... The SL concept had failed 6 months before the public even really knew what it was, it had failed before News and Ribot started signing clubs and players in 95.

Do you even know what the original plan for SL was? If not I'll give you the short version-

The initial plan for SL was to create a 14 team national competition that would exist on top of the ARL/NSWRL, all the ARL clubs would own shares in one of the 14 clubs, which would be one city clubs with the exception of Sydney that would have 4 clubs, the "super clubs" would be focused on the corporate side of the business and would basically be run like the Broncos. So in effect the idea was to create an American style 'franchise' based competition that used the ARL as a feeder comp.

It would be backed and completely underwritten by News but it'd be administered in tandem with the ARL, in other words they'd work together to create an all new competition (that was how News would get the rights for it legally, they'd create an all new product of a higher standard and the ARL would continue as intended underneath fulfilling the leagues agreements with Packer, for the sake of brevity I'll leave the detail at that.

The idea was presented to Arko and Quayle and they were obliged to allow News to present it to the clubs, they did this at a meeting a short time afterwards where Arko and Quayle lead the agenda, they rubbished the idea before it was even presented, made out that it threatened the existence of some of the clubs (take a guess at which ones) when in fact they (Arko and Quayle) planned to reduce the numbers in Sydney and not SL who planned to make them all partners in SL, then they allowed the News representatives to make their case, which by News' own admission didn't turnout to be the best presentation they'd ever given with all sorts of things going wrong and them completely misjudging what would interest most of the clubs (they presented the business plan instead of selling them with pomp and circumstance), after News made their presentation they were shuffled out and Kerry Packer was shuffled in, which is not normal practice, and he fear mongered and threaten to "sue the pants" off everybody in the room if they agreed to News proposal even though it had no impact on any of his dealings with the ARL or the clubs at the time.

That all happened in late 94!

That was the original SL plan and the old guard in Sydney didn't even give it a fair hearing, they completely disregarded it as soon as they heard that they wouldn't have complete control over the administration of the game and that their clubs wouldn't necessarily be at the top, they didn't consider the positives and negatives at all and completely threw it out through self interest...

What became Sl wasn't the SL plan, it was News seeing an opportunity to still get what they wanted and a backlash from a group of clubs that felt that they were being completely ignored and treated like second class citizens (which they were) who were also desperate cause due to ARLs' business practices and double standards was sending them broke...



See now you are talking about two different things, you are conflating the success of the SL to the success of News, those are two very different things.

News' goals in RL was always the same, to have an owning share in the sport and to get the pay tv rights and they succeeded in getting them, initially it was going to be cheaper and easier to do that through SL, but when that didn't workout they got it in other ways, namely the NRL.

SL's goals were very different, they were to change the way that the sport was administer and presented and to make it a more marketable and ultimately more profitable product, in theory anyway.

Both SL and News were using each other as a means to an end.





Uh huh, but it's still a massive false equivalency to compare the BBL to SL cause A: SL ended up as an attempt at a hostile takeover of the administration of the sport and the BBL is and always was a CA backed competition that is run and administered by CA, B: BBL wasn't created by a group of disenfranchised stakeholders within it's system with the assistance of a huge media company financially backing it, and C: the BBL had no interference by media companies in it's creation and hasn't been and probably never will become a pawn in a bigger struggle between two large media companies.

The situations aren't even close to equivalent, not in the slightest.



I'm not ignoring SL, just saying that the BBL is't equivalent to it...



FFS I attended the meeting at the Shark's :league club, at which the club decided to go to SL.I have more than a decent idea of SL plans, and News wanting Pay Tv in this country and rugby league providing
the impetus.Please don't tell me how to suck eggs.The club was burnt toast if they didn't push to get in, the money was too enticing.
The desperation by SL to sign players any player such as the likes of a Steve Edmed who struggled at times to make 1st grade ,and earned a motza,was indicative of a failed comp.
But SL was committed to ensure they could provide News with content.The public were not mugs,Sth African players who had never touched a Steeden in anger came on board.
Ribot was going to sell the new game around the world, and News had their Pay Tv content.Much to the dismay of Optus.

LOL.The public answered in spades by steering clear in numbers when clubs made the decision to defect.When expansion started every one appeared happy, except obviously the SL founders.

After one year 1997. both News and the ARL knew it wasn't working as two comps would eventually be a disaster.News because they didn't get the clubs they wanted initially,and the crowds dropped off ,the TV ratings dropped likewise.No Dragons,no Parramatta no Newcastle,they got the scraps Sharks,& Penrith ATT hardly conducive to big crowds or Tv ratings.

In fact it has been suggested the fact the Knights stayed true to the ARL in heartland area, played a big part in helping the ARL dig its heels in and of course the funds of Packer.
I am also aware plans were in place for the ARL to expand to Melbourne,but the war stymied that plan.
And the Sharks were also in the firing line according to some media sources like Masters,to get relocated.

Sure clubs like Wests,Souths ,Illawarra and the Sharks struggling financially were being looked at by the likes of Arko and Quayle,before SL came marching in

When you are suggesting the Sydney Mafia,maybe you should have included KP.He held the RL TV contract ATT,and was going to keep it.Sydney clubs helped provide the tV ratings for Nein.

Yes News succeeded in getting their Pay Tv content, but they also were unprepared for the public backlash by many supporters.It had cost them hundreds of millions,it had cleaned the coffers of the ARL,and you would need to be blind freddie not to notice public anger.



Mate PR brought in the BBL argument,not me not Molly McGee.IOW he used the BBL's success as a basis for NRL success .

The BBL competition doesn't require the removal of suburban clubs all new franchises, regardless of who administers the shebang.What cricket supporters has the BBL got offside,judging by the crowds few if any.The whole thing has run generally smoothly and very successfully.
My point was to show the difference ,which I wasn't going to ignore.So of course the situations are different by the sheer makeup/origins of the teams involved.
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
Once again your implosion logic coming through! You will not learn will you. Even despite the population figures and the reduced number of top flight clubs, you just see that this area is not being catered adequately for top flight rugby league! We will disagree. I dont suscribe to implosion of the code and you do. I've already mentioned Im fine with additional clubs yet fir whatevet flawed logic you continue the implosion obsession! That's you not me!

So you refuse to answer the question then...

If you think that due to population Sydney needs 10 teams then does that mean that every population of roughly 500k needs a club? In other words should Brisbane have 2-3 clubs, Melbourne 9, Perth 4, etc, or is it just Sydney that needs a club in every suburb?
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Ironically 1997 was one of Cronulla best ever seasons for crowds!

Dig a little deeper mate.The very first home game for the Sharks in the SL in 1997,was the opening game against the Raiders at the SFS,with all the hype ,marketing and expectation.That crowd was 22,683,which boosted the Sharks 97 figures..Most of the time the local crowds were no bigger than they are today.
Plus ATT the Sharks had ET and Peachey on deck.Also they were in the SL G/F.
 
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Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Alright then I'll do the maths for you.

Due to the over saturation of the two markets in question artificially creating to much competition for the clubs in each city and competition respectively, three quarters of the clubs in Sydney and Melbourne aren't sustainable and have become anchors on their respective competitions that have severely stunted their growth and ability to support themselves!

There maths done.



Yeah what he said!

You havent done the maths and just dribbled bullshit which is the code definition of the word 'oversaturation'! I'll do it for you : Melbourne 5100000 divided by ten clubs 510000 per club. SYDNEY 6000000 divided by nine clubs 666000plus. (I took the 666 repeater off). So with 156000 potential more fans per NRL club you want to decrease the top flight presence!? You are a reckless lunatic and need to go back to school and do your mathematics again!
So you refuse to answer the question then...

If you think that due to population Sydney needs 10 teams then does that mean that every population of roughly 500k needs a club? In other words should Brisbane have 2-3 clubs, Melbourne 9, Perth 4, etc, or is it just Sydney that needs a club in every suburb?

Last time I counted 6000000 divided by ten equalled 600000 ? (Thats your Sydney figure)- bigger than Newcastle ! Melbourne with its ten AFL clubs seem to have no issues. (With about a million less people) But then again they know the value of history, widespred recognition and cultural significance . You don't!
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
So you refuse to answer the question then...

If you think that due to population Sydney needs 10 teams then does that mean that every population of roughly 500k needs a club? In other words should Brisbane have 2-3 clubs, Melbourne 9, Perth 4, etc, or is it just Sydney that needs a club in every suburb?

Get your maths right before you go your ignorant rant!
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
FFS I attended the meeting at the Shark's :league club, at which the club decided to go to SL.I have more than a decent idea of SL plans, and News wanting Pay Tv in this country and rugby league providing
the impetus.Please don't tell me how to suck eggs.The club was burnt toast if they didn't push to get in, the money was too enticing.
The desperation by SL to sign players any player such as the likes of a Steve Edmed who struggled at times to make 1st grade ,and earned a motza,was indicative of a failed comp.
But SL was committed to ensure they could provide News with content.The public were not mugs,Sth African players who had never touched a Steeden in anger came on board.
Ribot was going to sell the new game around the world, and News had their Pay Tv content.Much to the dismay of Optus.

LOL.The public answered in spades by steering clear in numbers when clubs made the decision to defect.When expansion started every one appeared happy, except obviously the SL founders.

After one year 1997. both News and the ARL knew it wasn't working as two comps would eventually be a disaster.News because they didn't get the clubs they wanted initially,and the crowds dropped off ,the TV ratings dropped likewise.No Dragons,no Parramatta no Newcastle,they got the scraps Sharks,& Penrith ATT hardly conducive to big crowds or Tv ratings.

In fact it has been suggested the fact the Knights stayed true to the ARL in heartland area, played a big part in helping the ARL dig its heels in and of course the funds of Packer.
I am also aware plans were in place for the ARL to expand to Melbourne,but the war stymied that plan.
And the Sharks were also in the firing line according to some media sources like Masters,to get relocated.

Sure clubs like Wests,Souths ,Illawarra and the Sharks struggling financially were being looked at by the likes of Arko and Quayle,before SL came marching in

When you are suggesting the Sydney Mafia,maybe you should have included KP.He held the RL TV contract ATT,and was going to keep it.Sydney clubs helped provide the tV ratings for Nein.

Yes News succeeded in getting their Pay Tv content, but they also were unprepared for the public backlash by many supporters.It had cost them hundreds of millions,it had cleaned the coffers of the ARL,and you would need to be blind freddie not to notice public anger.



Mate PR brought in the BBL argument,not me not Molly McGee.IOW he used the BBL's success as a basis for NRL success .

The BBL competition doesn't require the removal of suburban clubs all new franchises, regardless of who administers the shebang.What cricket supporters has the BBL got offside,judging by the crowds few if any.The whole thing has run generally smoothly and very successfully.
My point was to show the difference ,which I wasn't going to ignore.So of course the situations are different by the sheer makeup/origins of the teams involved.

Gday Taipan. It's frustrating going over this again and again and again. When are these dudes ever going to get it!? So tedious and so wrong! I can't believe how ignorant they are of local cultural affiliations/support. And the generations that they are blindly advocating to abandon !? Incredible!
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
FFS I attended the meeting at the Shark's :league club, at which the club decided to go to SL.I have more than a decent idea of SL plans, and News wanting Pay Tv in this country and rugby league providing

By that point the plan had been fundamentally changed.

It went from being a News backed comp run by News and the ARL to a hostile takeover of the ARL within that time frame, and those are two very different things...

So again do you even know the original plan for SL, or only what ended up happening?

LOL.The public answered in spades by steering clear in numbers when clubs made the decision to defect.When expansion started every one appeared happy, except obviously the SL founders.

Yes they did, but the public didn't 'answer' to the original plan, they never got the opportunity to, it never came into reality, the ARL and Sydney clubs wouldn't even hear it out or negotiate with News and the SL clubs about it.

Also I find it hilarious that you think everyone was happy with the expansion! They were happy with it alright, until it started effecting them, then they weren't so happy and started pushing to have the expansion clubs run into the ground and their players split up between their clubs, which is what was happening and is what ultimately ended up happening to the Raiders, every one of the major problems that the Raiders saw at time that pushed them to join SL are still problems today...

In fact it has been suggested the fact the Knights stayed true to the ARL in heartland area, played a big part in helping the ARL dig its heels inland of course the funds of Packer.

That's true, if the Knights had joined like was planned then it was game over, and considering that the Knights were solidly SL (helped organise it early on with the Broncos and Raiders) until Ribot lost a day signing the Broncos and had to push back signing the Knights players giving the ARL the chance to swoop in and sign the Chief, at which point the team was basically destined to sign with the ARL and the Knights jumped ship back to the ARL following their players.

If the Knights signed it would have been game over, SL would have had everything outside of Sydney except the Crushers, Chargers, and Illawarra, and they would have had a fair chunk of Sydney as well, at that point the ARL would have been surrounded and would have lost their majority market share in every major RL market in the country...

I am also aware plans were in place for the ARL to expand to Melbourne,but the war stymied that plan.

It was planned for some time in the future, but nothing had actually been done about it by the time that SL came around.

Adelaide on the other hand was well progressed, and the 'Aces' were preparing to join sometime in the late 90s, but the ARL had already f##ked them too by demanding that the pay for travel, banning the clubs from starting their own merchandising schemes, saddling them with extra insurance costs, etc, all the crap that unfairly effected the out of town clubs that was sending them broke, that's why the core of the Aces jumped ship and became the Rams when News gave them a better offer, an offer where they actually had a hope of surviving past their 10th birthday...

When you are suggesting the Sydney Mafia,maybe you should have included KP.He held the RL TV contract ATT,and was going to keep it.

I did mention Kerry Parker, and no he didn't own the TV rights to all RL content, he owned the rights to the NSWRL/ARL competition and if the ARL had agreed to News' original plan then there would have been f##k all he could have done to stop them, as the ARL competition would have continued and his contract with the ARL wouldn't have been breached, there'd just be a new bigger competition in town that overshadowed the one that he had the broadcasting rights too.

Mate PR brought in the BBL argument,not me not Molly McGee.IOW he used the BBL's success as a basis for NRL success .

Yes PR did bring in the BBL, however he didn't compare it to the NRL or SL, he only stated that every single one of the BBL clubs is a brand new club and that they didn't need age and tradition to be successful.

That is all reasonable and factually correct, however suggesting that the BBL and SL are equivalent is not reasonable cause they are not equivalent and that was all you my friend, all you.

The BBL competition doesn't require the removal of suburban clubs all new franchises, regardless of who administers the shebang.What cricket supporters has the BBL got offside,judging by the crowds few if any.The whole thing has run generally smoothly and very successfully.
My point was to show the difference ,which I wasn't going to ignore.So of course the situations are different by the sheer makeup/origins of the teams involved.

All of the above are reasons why the BBL and SL aren't equivalent, glade that you can now see that you shouldn't have tried to draw the equivalency between the two...
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
You havent done the maths and just dribbled bullshit which is the code definition of the word 'oversaturation'! I'll do it for you : Melbourne 5100000 divided by ten clubs 510000 per club. SYDNEY 6000000 divided by nine clubs 666000plus. (I took the 666 repeater off). So with 156000 potential more fans per NRL club you want to decrease the top flight presence!? You are a reckless lunatic and need to go back to school and do your mathematics again!


Last time I counted 6000000 divided by ten equalled 600000 ? (Thats your Sydney figure)- bigger than Newcastle ! Melbourne with its ten AFL clubs seem to have no issues. (With about a million less people) But then again they know the value of history, widespred recognition and cultural significance . You don't!

There's just one problem with your maths, the recorded population of Sydney last year was only 5.37 million, not 6 million, hence the the "roughly 500k"...

Do you actually check your facts before you assert them, or just make them up as you go along to fit your agenda?

And Melbourne with it's ten AFL clubs isn't fine, you can keep asserting that it is, but nobody in the AFL or the AFL clubs agrees with you (especially not the big AFL clubs that subsidise the broke Melbourne ones)...

I guess you aren't going to answer the question in that post either, you seem to have a problem with answering questions...

BTW, Melbourne population is only 4.82 million, not 5.1 million...
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
Get your maths right before you go your ignorant rant!

That's not a rant, It's this strange thing called a question!

I ask your opinion on something and traditionally you give me your opinion on the content of what I asked you about.

Does that clear up your confusion for you?
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
There's just one problem with your maths, the recorded population of Sydney last year was only 5.37 million, not 6 million, hence the the "roughly 500k"...

Do you actually check your facts before you assert them, or just make them up as you go along to fit your agenda?

And Melbourne with it's ten AFL clubs isn't fine, you can keep asserting that it is, but nobody in the AFL or the AFL clubs agrees with you (especially not the big AFL clubs that subsidise the broke Melbourne ones)...

I guess you aren't going to answer the question in that post either, you seem to have a problem with answering questions...

Your comprehension skills are lacking! I've been 'meagre' with my "Sydney" population. Remembering that Sydney includes two other cities/regions Wollongong and Gosford . The Illawarra and Central Coast. Please read what's been put in front of you! Im continually having to go over relevant information you have "apparently" missed!
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
That's not a rant, It's this strange thing called a question!

I ask your opinion on something and traditionally you give me your opinion on the content of what I asked you about.

Does that clear up your confusion for you?

Your maths is wrong! You haven't added in Geelong with Melbourne and Wollongong and Gosford with Sydney. It's detailed in my calculations if you read it properly !
 

Stormwarrior82

Juniors
Messages
1,036
Bring in the Bears! That's an answer champ. Sydney and the other two cities (Wollongong &Gosford)are underepresented in rugby league courtesy of short sighted administrators stemming from the Super League fiasco. It's not the answer you want but its an answer. And in addition work proactively to reenter the lost club into the future. All logical and not reckless.

And if the bears were already in the comp? What would you do then?

That’s a fair standard answer but for me the Nrl can’t continue to help out poorly run, mismanaged clubs. A line in the sand has to be drawn at some point doesn’t it? Surely the Nrl can’t just keep propping up clubs? That line was drawn last year during the club funding fiasco. And it’s the right decision.
 

Stormwarrior82

Juniors
Messages
1,036
What would bears do better in central coast than the roosters do currently or possibly in the future? And don’t souths have an affiliation to the bears in 2nd tier? Seems all bases are covered.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
And if the bears were already in the comp? What would you do then?

That’s a fair standard answer but for me the Nrl can’t continue to help out poorly run, mismanaged clubs. A line in the sand has to be drawn at some point doesn’t it? Surely the Nrl can’t just keep propping up clubs? That line was drawn last year during the club funding fiasco. And it’s the right decision.

We disagree. The wrong decisions were made in the superleague fiasco. Already two clubs were re entered because of the mistakes . Clubs, particularly well known foundarion clubs are treasures and should be respected. Just like they are doing in the AFL in Melbourne. These clubs are there for the code abd its credibility . Profit making even though desirable us a bonus m it's a sport with generational and cultural ties. Money doesn't buy that yet you will lose money if you lose that !
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
Your comprehension skills are lacking! I've been 'meagre' with my "Sydney" population. Remembering that Sydney includes two other cities/regions Wollongong and Gosford . The Illawarra and Central Coast. Please read what's been put in front of you! Im continually having to go over relevant information you have "apparently" missed!

Your maths is wrong! You haven't added in Geelong with Melbourne and Wollongong and Gosford with Sydney. It's detailed in my calculations if you read it properly !

LOL, since when were Gosford or Wollongong part of Sydney, or Geelong part of Melbourne?!

You better tell them that they're cities have all merged together! LOL!

Even if you do add their populations together your math is still wrong LOL, Population of Sydney is 5.37, the population of Wollongong is 213 thousand, and the population of Gosford at last count was 169 thousand, that equals a total population of 5.72 million still well short of your 6 million!

Hey at least your numbers for the new city of Melbourlong are right lol!

BTW whats meagre about Sydney? lol!
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
What would bears do better in central coast than the roosters do currently or possibly in the future? And don’t souths have an affiliation to the bears in 2nd tier? Seems all bases are covered.

No they are not ! Bases are not covered! Roosters have neglected their own area and need to develop it. The North Sydney Bears have a triple advantage to offer; the influential North Sydney business district, North Sydney fans (in the area and Australia wide) and a familiarity with the area already to the extent BEARS words are on the very handy located stadium seats at Gosford which if done well will help have the Central Coast people embrace the club as well.
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
We disagree. The wrong decisions were made in the superleague fiasco. Already two clubs were re entered because of the mistakes . Clubs, particularly well known foundarion clubs are treasures and should be respected. Just like they are doing in the AFL in Melbourne. These clubs are there for the code abd its credibility . Profit making even though desirable us a bonus m it's a sport with generational and cultural ties. Money doesn't buy that yet you will lose money if you lose that !

Wrong again bub!

The courts forced the NRL to take the Rabbitohs, that ruling was overturned in 04 and the NRL could have (and probably should have) kicked them out then and there.

They weren't brought back "because of the mistakes" and Titans were only brought back to make the competition even again.
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Wrong again bub!

The courts forced the NRL to take the Rabbitohs, that ruling was overturned in 04 and the NRL could have (and probably should have) kicked them out then and there.

They weren't brought back "because of the mistakes" and Titans were only brought back to make the competition even again.

Lol. Rest my case!. So it was a numbers balance thing!? You are a lunatic! Goodnight.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
No they not ! The Roosters have neglected their own area and need to develop it.

Don't see what that's got to do with anything.

The North Sydney Bears have a triple advantage to offer; the influential North Sydney business district,

There's already a club well placed to cover it, it called Manly, not that most business care about having the club that they sponsor representing where their HQ is based anyway...

North Sydney fans (in the area and Australia wide)

You massively overestimate the number of Bears fans, you massively overestimate their spread around the country, and you massively overestimate the number that would be willing to come back and support the Bears or support them if they are based on the CC.

and a familiarity with the area already to the extent BEARS words are on the very handy stadium seats at Gosford which if done well will help have the Central Coast people embrace the club as well.

That was ripped out years, and years ago, probably well over a decade ago, see for yourself-
central-coast-stadium-in-gosford.jpg
 

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