Halfbacks - split from Michael Lett Thread.

[Bazal]

I think Smith and Thurston are chalk and cheese

I think they are similar in that they like to run the game with someone as opposed to being a sole dominant player like Johns or Orford. In terms of the way they play, yes they are quite different. But they are similar in the way they interact with their 6....

 

[yy_cheng]

I think their similarities is that they aren't good enough or not as complete a player as Johns or Lockyer..... yet!

 

[Bigfella]

I see some good points on both sides of this argument.

Tim no doubt needs to take on some personal discipline and work ethic. He let down his teammates and coach (the coach who took a big punt with him and brought him into first grade in brilliant style and based a team around him; I only raise this because BS seems to be blamed for everything but Tim Smith 2005 was a major success of his coaching career quite frankly) with his off field behaviour. So did many others quite frankly. Many of our players were not as fit as they could have been last season. TIm in 2006 certainly tended to go missing towards the back end of games. Simple issues like fitness can contribute as much as anything. Alcohol was at least a part of that. I see the obvious physical progress he has made as a very positive sign in this respect.

I agree with Jake that our forwards were rubbish fro large periods. However PP has a good point that a halfback can make a difference in this respect. I have posted previously that our 1990's team of forwards were average at best; when Sterling would return from injury everyone looked like world beaters. A half and dummy half can have a lot to do with improving the penetration of the running forwards, by creating options, changing angles etc. Both groups - the halves and the forwards need to share responsibility for these factors.

And a very good point was made about Hagan. I was in the Knights dressing room the night they beat Parra in 2005 from last place. Johns and Newton certainly smashed him after a very dtrong start. I am confident that Hagan a) understands Tim's weaknesses b) knows what the best of the halfbacks can, and need to, do and c) will be a great man manager who creates a fun atmosphere that some of our key characters like tim, finch, riddell, hayne etc will thrive in.

 

[yy_cheng]

Do you guys think that the half actually has less responsibility now, especially in our own end of the field with the reasons being:

a) Dummy half runs from backs
b) Standard game plan as who does the next hitup, who does the hitup before a kick.
c) Trainers running around relaying the coach's thoughts

 

[cardinal]

It's not a cop out, it's a fact. Tim Smith was already down on confidence and form, add a useless five-eighth to the equation and you get season 2006...the fact that both our halves struggled alongside Morris is a clear indication that he was not doing his job at five-eighth. Teams worked him out, and targetted him, and he had no answers. He took no pressure off, in fact he built pressure on his own halfback by being behind the play every single time he got the ball. The number of times he broke down a backline movement by himself, whether outside Tim or Jeremy, was ridiculous. On top of that, the ball more often than not stopped moving when it got to him. As a result, Tim felt he had to do everything himself and just ended up digging himself a deeper hole. Morris is not solely to blame for Tim Smiths form, I never said he was. But he sure as heck contributed to his woeful season. I think, with Finch outside him, Tim will be able to play his natural game a lot more, without worrying about playing halfback and five-eighth like he did when he was partnered with Morris.

And your reference to Andrew Johns is a silly one, they are two different player. Tim Smith likes to combine with his halves partner to run the side around, whereas Johns uses his halves partner as a running back/forward, hence Rudder and Johns worked well. Johns is in sole control of the Knights, Smith is not solely in control of Parramatta...Look at how Thurston struggled at times this year with no halves partner and no go forward, he is a similar player to Smith.

I guess we were watching a different game what I saw was Morris playing 5/8 in a team that won the minor prem in 2005 and sharing the role of organising and kicking with his halfback, and you say that is what Tim likes someone to share the load with. In 07 you could say many players were down on form but to blame the 5/8 for a 1/2 backs performance just does not sit right with me. Tim was down on form and confidence as was most of the team including most of our forwards which did not help. How did Morris differ in his play so much from 05 when Tim was the form 1/2 of the comp and they played every game together,to 06, if you can honestly tell me you think morris was crap in 05 I don't think we have much more to chat about, as I believe he was one of our best players. But I have to respect your opinion as you stated earlier that you were a fast 5/8 in what grade was that?

 

[Bazal]

I guess we were watching a different game what I saw was Morris playing 5/8 in a team that won the minor prem in 2005 and sharing the role of organising and kicking with his halfback, and you say that is what Tim likes someone to share the load with. In 07 you could say many players were down on form but to blame the 5/8 for a 1/2 backs performance just does not sit right with me. Tim was down on form and confidence as was most of the team including most of our forwards which did not help. How did Morris differ in his play so much from 05 when Tim was the form 1/2 of the comp and they played every game together,to 06, if you can honestly tell me you think morris was crap in 05 I don't think we have much more to chat about, as I believe he was one of our best players. But I have to respect your opinion as you stated earlier that you were a fast 5/8 in what grade was that?

Morris was pressured in 06 and struggled. It's plain to see when you look at the try assist stats, for starters. In 2005 he fed off Timmy and did a great job, but when he was A)pressured and B) unable to feed off an in form halfback, he struggled. I never said he was wholly to blame for anything by the way, just that some of the blame for Tims form and for our season must fall on him. He struggled and Tim couldn;t form a partnership with him, so in turn he struggled even more...

 

[bartman]

Ron, I think Bart means that if the forwards aren't going forward, the halfback needs to take more RESPONSIBILITY rather than go missing or blame others. H
e needs to lead the others.

HOW? With a RUCK HIMSELF? Of course not, but he could talk it up more, telling players what needs to be done, be supportive and sometimes creative such as Timmy's kick on his own goal line to the wing.

Thanks yy, that is what I meant.

Halfbacks shouldn't take their ball and go home just because their forwards haven't dominated. In the 80s our forwards didn't usually dominate, they merely managed to hold the more fancied packs up the middle most of the time, which was enough for Sterling and Kenny to get things going.

Ron, I didn't mean that the halfback/Tim should get all the blame when a team plays badly, but for not taking more responsibility he certainly should take his equal share of the blame, and not be a protected species just because they wear a 7. Tim is no Sterlo yet, not by any stretch of the imagination. I hope he gets there, but we need other options in case he doesn't, and not be afraid to use them when it looks best.

 

[Prodigal Eel]

Im sorry but the 80's and present time....you can not compare....today we have proffesional footy players, with prolly 90% of players in the 80's wouldnt make the cut.

i agree, he has to take some of the blame....but imo his taken alot more from some ppl then he should. Everyone has weaknesses in their game, even hindy who no offence to all of you that cream in there pants over him but is dud when he carries the ball. When playing agianst top teams he hits the line and stops....i prolly seen him twice this year hit a whole or break a line. But we still adore hindy caus of his other attributes...like tackling and heart.

Timmy might not have the running game of orford....but he has vision, kicking and passing. With these three attributes, leads me into the fowards....if your fowards arent making room for you and giving you space...kicking game is affected....usually caus your too deep to make an attacking kick. With this happening, the team is getting less chances in the opposition 20, thus timmy was trying too hard to lay something on everytime he got there...leading to stray passes.

I am 100% sure, if our fowards play to there ability and dont take a backwards step...timmy will shine.

 

[Eelementary]

Put Tim behind the Storm's 2006 pack, or the Broncos', or the Bulldogs'...Would things have been different?

My vote would go to "hell yes".

 

[Bazal]

Put Tim behind the Storm's 2006 pack, or the Broncos', or the Bulldogs'...Would things have been different?

My vote would go to "hell yes".

I think he would have been shown up less, but he still would have struggled. With or without other influences, he was down on form to begin with and that is a hard thing to turn around, especially for a halfback. Sure, the struggling pack and the crappy partner, the lack of hole runners, the lack of options all made it worse, but at the core of all that he was still down on form and confidence...Of course he would probably have pulled out of his stall faster..

 

[Eelementary]

That's true.

I do agree with you in that he had some issues he needed to sort out. Hopefully he's got them sorted, and we can look to a big 2007 from him (provided his forwards lift).

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Thanks yy, that is what I meant.

Halfbacks shouldn't take their ball and go home just because their forwards haven't dominated. In the 80s our forwards didn't usually dominate, they merely managed to hold the more fancied packs up the middle most of the time, which was enough for Sterling and Kenny to get things going.

Ron, I didn't mean that the halfback/Tim should get all the blame when a team plays badly, but for not taking more responsibility he certainly should take his equal share of the blame, and not be a protected species just because they wear a 7. Tim is no Sterlo yet, not by any stretch of the imagination. I hope he gets there, but we need other options in case he doesn't, and not be afraid to use them when it looks best.

Fair enough, However I do believe most blame on this forum is directed at Tim, just from playing and seeing what coaches have to say...halfbacks are only as good as there go forward. The expectations of halves to perform when your forwards are making 30 metres for 5 tackles is just unrealistic.

 

[yy_cheng]

Im sorry but the 80's and present time....you can not compare....today we have proffesional footy players, with prolly 90% of players in the 80's wouldnt make the cut.

I don't agree with you here. If the 80's player had the same support, training, coaching and whatever the current players have, a large percentage would make it.

Grothe Snr, Cronin, Ella, Kenny, Sterlo, Price, etc would all make it if they went through the same system as the current players do.

 

[Eelementary]

I don't agree with you here. If the 80's player had the same support, training, coaching and whatever the current players have, a large percentage would make it.

Grothe Snr, Cronin, Ella, Kenny, Sterlo, Price, etc would all make it if they went through the same system as the current players do.

Would they, though?

No disrespect to the legends of the '80's, but...The game is far more physical and quick these days. Look at some of the forwards (not to mention the centres) we have running around at the moment - they're massive.

 

[yy_cheng]

But why are they massive? Gym work? Genetics?

I think it is all attitude as to how much you want to succeed.

Who are the current best players in the world? Johns, Lockyer? Are they Massive?

Could they have gone to the Gym and put on the bulk?

Like I said it's all attitude. And that is what sets Timmy, Mateo, Zeb, etc to realizing their true potential.

You can put on bulk, you can't put on height (unless you're young) and it's very hard to improve IQ.

 

[Prodigal Eel]

im sorry....but i dont agree...i know grothe snr was ausome back then....but atm i think he would be a good winger, not great....the game has advanced to much and imo he would be struggling to make SOO.

With kenny and sterlo, its different there position depends on skills and they would fall under the 10% that would make it.

 

[parra pete]

im sorry....but i dont agree...i know grothe snr was ausome back then....but atm i think he would be a good winger, not great....the game has advanced to much and imo he would be struggling to make SOO.

With kenny and sterlo, its different there position depends on skills and they would fall under the 10% that would make it.

Don't you believe it.....
Reminds me of the story when a journalist asked Don Bradman many years ago what he would average against the Pommy bowlers if he was batting today.
"Probably about 60" the Don said.
The journo replied "Gee, when you retired your average was 99.94",
"Yeah, I know," the Don said, "But I am 85 you know".
Great players are great in any era..and Eric Grothe senior and the rest of the champion Eels players of the ighties would be just as great today as they were then

 

[Eelementary]

But why are they massive? Gym work? Genetics?

I think it is all attitude as to how much you want to succeed.

Who are the current best players in the world? Johns, Lockyer? Are they Massive?

Could they have gone to the Gym and put on the bulk?

Like I said it's all attitude. And that is what sets Timmy, Mateo, Zeb, etc to realizing their true potential.

You can put on bulk, you can't put on height (unless you're young) and it's very hard to improve IQ.

Good points.

Although I've never cared for this "best player in the world" statement. Andrew Johns is the best halfback in the world; Darren Lockyer is the best fullback-cum-five-eighth in the world...But they are not the best players in the world in my eyes. Calling them that is assuming they can play just as well as they do now in the front row, at fullback, on the wings, in the centres, etc.

 

[Eelementary]

But this is what I keep picturing:

Bob O'Reilly up against Adrian Morley or Ruben Wiki. Doesn't matter who has the ball.

Who do you think would come off better in that clash? As much of a legend as the Bear is, I would lean towards Moz or Wiki.

 

[parra pete]

Do you think the Bear would have trained a little different if he was playing today.
Time doesn't stand still. Phar Lap would be lucky to win a maiden at Randwick running the times he did in the 30s. Dawn Fraser wouldn't qualify for the Olympic team on her times in the sixties. Shirley Strickland wouldn't win a heat at the Olympics - let alone Gold Medals
You can't make comparisons of eras.
The Bear was one tough player..so were Dick Thornett Brian Hambly, Ron Lynch, Paul Mares, Stumpy Stevens, Chris Phelan. They would be champions in any era.