Hame Sele

[SBD82]

Luc, Host, Sims, Lawrie.
I wouldn’t run with a utility as having seen the results of that the over last 2 years it looks a dud theory to me under this coaching regime.
I have always subscribed to the theory that if Mann doesn’t run on at the start of the game then his next best position is reggies.

Where do you play luc and host? If you play them on the edges, even for only twenty minutes each, you are displacing one of our Origin quality forwards for a full half of footy. No value in getting a total of forty minutes from two bench spots and it weakens the team.

Or use them in the middle, and take minutes away from one of JDB, Vaughan, sims, Lawrie, or graham. Again, you weaken the team. Those five players are easily capable of playing all bar Mann/Robson's 20 minutes in the middle. They are effectively splitting 220 minutes amongst 5 players. With JDB easily churning out 60 minutes, the remaining 4 only need to play an average of 40 minutes each. If you are thinking to play luc or host in there as well, that becomes 5 players playing an average of 32 minutes each. So you end up playing guys like Vaughan, Sims and graham for a fraction of what they are capable of and leave hundreds of thousands of dollars of talent on the bench.

It's fine to say that the bench usage is poor, but I'd really like to see a breakdown of how you think a four forward bench works in an 80 minute game with 8 interchanges.

 

[Como Connection]

Where do you play luc and host? If you play them on the edges, even for only twenty minutes each, you are displacing one of our Origin quality forwards for a full half of footy. No value in getting a total of forty minutes from two bench spots and it weakens the team.

Or use them in the middle, and take minutes away from one of JDB, Vaughan, sims, Lawrie, or graham. Again, you weaken the team. Those five players are easily capable of playing all bar Mann/Robson's 20 minutes in the middle. They are effectively splitting 220 minutes amongst 5 players. With JDB easily churning out 60 minutes, the remaining 4 only need to play an average of 40 minutes each. If you are thinking to play luc or host in there as well, that becomes 5 players playing an average of 32 minutes each. So you end up playing guys like Vaughan, Sims and graham for a fraction of what they are capable of and leave hundreds of thousands of dollars of talent on the bench.

It's fine to say that the bench usage is poor, but I'd really like to see a breakdown of how you think a four forward bench works in an 80 minute game with 8 interchanges.

Very impressive input.
CC

 

[Old Timer]

Where do you play luc and host? If you play them on the edges, even for only twenty minutes each, you are displacing one of our Origin quality forwards for a full half of footy. No value in getting a total of forty minutes from two bench spots and it weakens the team.

Or use them in the middle, and take minutes away from one of JDB, Vaughan, sims, Lawrie, or graham. Again, you weaken the team. Those five players are easily capable of playing all bar Mann/Robson's 20 minutes in the middle. They are effectively splitting 220 minutes amongst 5 players. With JDB easily churning out 60 minutes, the remaining 4 only need to play an average of 40 minutes each. If you are thinking to play luc or host in there as well, that becomes 5 players playing an average of 32 minutes each. So you end up playing guys like Vaughan, Sims and graham for a fraction of what they are capable of and leave hundreds of thousands of dollars of talent on the bench.

It's fine to say that the bench usage is poor, but I'd really like to see a breakdown of how you think a four forward bench works in an 80 minute game with 8 interchanges.

How does a 4 forward bench differ from a 3 forward bench with a utility?
Interchanges are interchanges regardless and if they are all in the forwards I believe that a bigger body is far better than a light frame body especially against the big sides.
We have had bench sitters not used at all and ended up with tired forwards at the end of the season so it cant be that difficult to get 4 m3n to do what 3 men have been doing previously.
If you think that taking time of Graham is detrimental then we have to agree to disagree as IMO he is far better playing shorter stints for maximum impact and IMO just before and after half time is prime time for him.
1. Vaughan - Graham - Vaughan = 2
2. Lawrie - Sims - Lawrie = 2
3. JDB off Frizz to middle Host to edge and the reverse = 2
4. T Sims off LL to Edge and reverse = 2 If need be T Sims can also go to prop if someone there needs a rest and if we want to keep T Sims on at the same time as LL.
The next game it might end up that you give Frizz the rest instead of T Sims.
In fact you might be able to pick the games where you can alternate JDB, T Sims & TF to playing 80 and others getting some much needed rest by using the interchange.
I do believe that certain games will dictate different scenarios and I don't necessarily say my scenario is anywhere near perfect but with a little massaging I think we can blood the youth, keep our quality players fresher, adapt when we need to as we have several players who can slot into the middle when necessary.
I really like Mann but I don't believe he is the right solution for keeping our forwards healthier and yes he has dome some extra 5/8 play for variety when he is on but isn't that also the role LL is supposed to play namely provide variety?

 

[SBD82]

How does a 4 forward bench differ from a 3 forward bench with a utility?
Interchanges are interchanges regardless and if they are all in the forwards I believe that a bigger body is far better than a light frame body especially against the big sides.
We have had bench sitters not used at all and ended up with tired forwards at the end of the season so it cant be that difficult to get 4 m3n to do what 3 men have been doing previously.
If you think that taking time of Graham is detrimental then we have to agree to disagree as IMO he is far better playing shorter stints for maximum impact and IMO just before and after half time is prime time for him.
1. Vaughan - Graham - Vaughan = 2
2. Lawrie - Sims - Lawrie = 2
3. JDB off Frizz to middle Host to edge and the reverse = 2
4. T Sims off LL to Edge and reverse = 2 If need be T Sims can also go to prop if someone there needs a rest and if we want to keep T Sims on at the same time as LL.
The next game it might end up that you give Frizz the rest instead of T Sims.
In fact you might be able to pick the games where you can alternate JDB, T Sims & TF to playing 80 and others getting some much needed rest by using the interchange.
I do believe that certain games will dictate different scenarios and I don't necessarily say my scenario is anywhere near perfect but with a little massaging I think we can blood the youth, keep our quality players fresher, adapt when we need to as we have several players who can slot into the middle when necessary.
I really like Mann but I don't believe he is the right solution for keeping our forwards healthier and yes he has dome some extra 5/8 play for variety when he is on but isn't that also the role LL is supposed to play namely provide variety?

Again, I'm not a fan of taking our two SOO quality edge backrowers out of the game for extended periods of time/ moving them into the middle.

If I read it right, the way you've set up your interchange, tyson will be playing 40 minutes on the edge, then 20 minutes in the middle, then 20 minutes on the edge. That's a massive recipe for burnout.

If you really want to rotate the edges, i think you would be much better off carrying one edge bench, and rotating through both edge forwards. I.e. Luc on for friz, friz on for Sims, sims on for luc. But I still don't like it.

I half agree with you re: Mann, although I do think there is value in having a player who can cover injuries. And he basically covers everywhere with minimal movement. I'm curious to see how we go with Robson playing some minutes covering lock and some covering 9.

 

[Old Timer]

Again, I'm not a fan of taking our two SOO quality edge backrowers out of the game for extended periods of time/ moving them into the middle.

If I read it right, the way you've set up your interchange, tyson will be playing 40 minutes on the edge, then 20 minutes in the middle, then 20 minutes on the edge. That's a massive recipe for burnout.

If you really want to rotate the edges, i think you would be much better off carrying one edge bench, and rotating through both edge forwards. I.e. Luc on for friz, friz on for Sims, sims on for luc. But I still don't like it.

I half agree with you re: Mann, although I do think there is value in having a player who can cover injuries. And he basically covers everywhere with minimal movement. I'm curious to see how we go with Robson playing some minutes covering lock and some covering 9.

We suffered burnout anyway, so surely using all 4 bench players in the 1st place is better than just 3, therefore it is just a matter of which 4.
As JDB and Frizz looked to be the ones most affected followed by Sims post origin, then surely that means we need to get some coverage around them and at the same time ensuring we have enough muscle left on the paddock.
I do think our situation is a bit unique for the want of a term because of the forward dominating style the coach has decided to play.
Just can't see us being able to do that all season with a small player sitting on the bench and the last 2 years burn out sort of shows that there is some credibility to that argument.
If we had a few more quality backs in the side that would take the pressure of the forwards somewhat and the bench configuration could be very different.

 

[SBD82]

We suffered burnout anyway, so surely using all 4 bench players in the 1st place is better than just 3, therefore it is just a matter of which 4.
As JDB and Frizz looked to be the ones most affected followed by Sims post origin, then surely that means we need to get some coverage around them and at the same time ensuring we have enough muscle left on the paddock.
I do think our situation is a bit unique for the want of a term because of the forward dominating style the coach has decided to play.
Just can't see us being able to do that all season with a small player sitting on the bench and the last 2 years burn out sort of shows that there is some credibility to that argument.
If we had a few more quality backs in the side that would take the pressure of the forwards somewhat and the bench configuration could be very different.

I'd say that depth in the forwards and rotation of the top 17 will be a much more effective way to handle the squad.

Last year the issues with friz and JDB were more around playing through injury. With more depth in the squad I think we will be able to afford to rest them.

 

[Old Timer]

I'd say that depth in the forwards and rotation of the top 17 will be a much more effective way to handle the squad.

Last year the issues with friz and JDB were more around playing through injury. With more depth in the squad I think we will be able to afford to rest them.

So we changed K Sims for LAM how has our depth altered?
We have pretty much the same squad as last year and we didn't do it then and there was a refusal to use youth until forced.
I am almost resigned to seeing Lafai & Aitken with a bench of K Sims, Latimore, Leilua and Mann with Host, Lawrie and Lomax languishing in reserves whilst we go down exactly the same dead end street.
I'd like to think otherwise but common sense tells me there is only disappointment if you dare hope for change.

 

[possm]

I'd say that Robson will play the key triangle role - like Dean Young did - in 2019. He will give McInnes a much needed 20min rest and with Leilua, rotate with the backrow as well.

Having two props on the bench and two suitable props in ISP should allow a good prop rotation throughout 2019. We have Laurie and T Sims on the bench and Vaughan and Graham as run on props. The question is, who are our two first grade ready props in ISP. I'd say counting Latimore as one of them is a mistake however, at the moment he is one of them. So Millward still needs to sign one, possibly two first grade ready props for 2019.

We surely have a great pack of forwards however, when injury and fatigue set in, our team falters purely because the backline can only strike and defend well when our forwards are dominating.

 

[SBD82]

So we changed K Sims for LAM how has our depth altered?
We have pretty much the same squad as last year and we didn't do it then and there was a refusal to use youth until forced.
I am almost resigned to seeing Lafai & Aitken with a bench of K Sims, Latimore, Leilua and Mann with Host, Lawrie and Lomax languishing in reserves whilst we go down exactly the same dead end street.
I'd like to think otherwise but common sense tells me there is only disappointment if you dare hope for change.

Don't descend back into vagaries OT. You were doing so well.

We have better depth because Lawrie and host are now genuine first grade options, meaning that if we lose either an edge or a middle, we are still playing first grade quality footballers. (I'd play Lawrie to begin the season but latimore would be the extra first grade quality middle that I'd use for injuries).

I also think that Mary has made many mistakes in the past regarding squad and bench management. Since it appears that we are stuck with him, I hope that he does much better this year. But when I read suggestions on here that include playing two edge forwards on the bench, I realise that Mary isn't the worst possible option.

 

[Old Timer]

Don't descend back into vagaries OT. You were doing so well.

We have better depth because Lawrie and host are now genuine first grade options, meaning that if we lose either an edge or a middle, we are still playing first grade quality footballers. (I'd play Lawrie to begin the season but latimore would be the extra first grade quality middle that I'd use for injuries).

I also think that Mary has made many mistakes in the past regarding squad and bench management. Since it appears that we are stuck with him, I hope that he does much better this year. But when I read suggestions on here that include playing two edge forwards on the bench, I realise that Mary isn't the worst possible option.

You know & I know that Mc Fookknuckle isn’t going to rest anyone
If you remember last year he said he leaves it to the individual player to decide if they are right to play.
That being the case the only way Frizz & Simms will get any respite is by use of the bench
There are edge players and attacking options so surely it means if you want to get them through to the end of the season in good condition you need suitable players on the bench to give them a break
Heaven forbid in some games we might actually be able to sub them out.

 

[SBD82]

You know & I know that Mc Fookknuckle isn’t going to rest anyone
If you remember last year he said he leaves it to the individual player to decide if they are right to play.
That being the case the only way Frizz & Simms will get any respite is by use of the bench
There are edge players and attacking options so surely it means if you want to get them through to the end of the season in good condition you need suitable players on the bench to give them a break
Heaven forbid in some games we might actually be able to sub them out.

I'm not saying we shouldn't ever interchange Sims or friz. I'm advocating one edge forward for that specific reason. i just don't see the value in playing two edge forwards off the bench.

 

[dragonssamy61]

I can see the point that both of you are saying .
But I'm hoping that Robson can fill a role of resting mcinnes and as a lock.
I think he has the skills to do so.
Just hope he gets a crack at it.
They are training using him in that situation.
I also think that having K Simms on the bench is a good move as he can play front row as well as a hard running back rower.
Interesting times ahead.
I think we need to be fexabile as we need to change our bench to suite how we are playing.

 

[Smurf]

I can see the point that both of you are saying .
But I'm hoping that Robson can fill a role of resting mcinnes and as a lock.
I think he has the skills to do so.
Just hope he gets a crack at it.
They are training using him in that situation.
I also think that having K Simms on the bench is a good move as he can play front row as well as a hard running back rower.
Interesting times ahead.
I think we need to be fexabile as we need to change our bench to suite how we are playing.

I agree

 

[Old Timer]

I'm not saying we shouldn't ever interchange Sims or friz. I'm advocating one edge forward for that specific reason. i just don't see the value in playing two edge forwards off the bench.

I would rather use 2 quality edge players and juggle the centre rather than use plodders like Latimore and a utility who is neither nor.
IMO if Host had been used correctly including quality balls from the half to run holes he would have shown what he has and either be part of the team with people achnowledging his worth or he would have been sent to the scrap heap and we would have moved on.
Frizz permanently on the right somewhat limits our attacking options so a bit of variety there would really help our overall attack IMO.
Anyway we will know soon enough.

 

[SBD82]

I can see the point that both of you are saying .
But I'm hoping that Robson can fill a role of resting mcinnes and as a lock.
I think he has the skills to do so.
Just hope he gets a crack at it.
They are training using him in that situation.
I also think that having K Simms on the bench is a good move as he can play front row as well as a hard running back rower.
Interesting times ahead.
I think we need to be fexabile as we need to change our bench to suite how we are playing.

This makes sense to me. I'd like to see the bench for round 1 as

14. Robson
15. Sims
16. Lawrie
17. Luc

 

[SBD82]

I would rather use 2 quality edge players and juggle the centre rather than use plodders like Latimore and a utility who is neither nor.
IMO if Host had been used correctly including quality balls from the half to run holes he would have shown what he has and either be part of the team with people achnowledging his worth or he would have been sent to the scrap heap and we would have moved on.
Frizz permanently on the right somewhat limits our attacking options so a bit of variety there would really help our overall attack IMO.
Anyway we will know soon enough.

I think it's incongruent to talk about burnout and then flippantly say that we can "juggle" the middle.

Your feelings about latimore are well known, but he is a superior middle to both luc and host imo. My preference would be for Lawrie and Sims to be the bench middles, if you're looking for players to cover the middle I would use those two ahead of luc or host.

 

[dragonssamy61]

This makes sense to me. I'd like to see the bench for round 1 as

14. Robson
15. Sims
16. Lawrie
17. Luc

That's the bench I would like to see.
But more likely no robson and lats in there

 

[Old Timer]

I think it's incongruent to talk about burnout and then flippantly say that we can "juggle" the middle.

Your feelings about latimore are well known, but he is a superior middle to both luc and host imo. My preference would be for Lawrie and Sims to be the bench middles, if you're looking for players to cover the middle I would use those two ahead of luc or host.

I never said Luc or Host go to the middle you need to recread my post.
On my bench there is Lawrie & K Sims exactly the same as you to cover the middle.
In the event that you need more coverage in the middle you can opt to cover it with TSims or Frizzell (does exactly that in test & SOO)
I simply don’t have Mann or Latimore as I see Host & Luc as superior options to both of them
In the event that either Host or Luc fails or an injury to a starting middle then Latimore comes into contention for s spot as he is the depth player IMO.

 

[possm]

I never said Luc or Host go to the middle you need to recread my post.
On my bench there is Lawrie & K Sims exactly the same as you to cover the middle.
In the event that you need more coverage in the middle you can opt to cover it with TSims or Frizzell (does exactly that in test & SOO)
I simply don’t have Mann or Latimore as I see Host & Luc as superior options to both of them
In the event that either Host or Luc fails or an injury to a starting middle then Latimore comes into contention for s spot as he is the depth player IMO.

All forwards need to be monitored for slight injuries and fatigue. When a rest is required it should be given even though it may mean a lesser player migh have to step up.

Having 6 first grade ready props across NRL and ISP is the answer. T Sims and Lawrie the prop rotation. Robson to cover 9 and 13. Leilua to cover 11 and 12.

Run on forwards
8. Vaughan
9. McInnes
10. Graham
11. T Sims
12. Frizell
13. De Belin

Bench
14. Robson
15. K Sims
16. Lawrie or new first grade ready prop
17. Leilua

ISP
8. Lawrie or new first grade ready prop
10. Timm
15. Kerr
16. Junior prop

 

[Old Timer]

All forwards need to be monitored for slight injuries and fatigue. When a rest is required it should be given even though it may mean a lesser player migh have to step up.

Having 6 first grade ready props across NRL and ISP is the answer. T Sims and Lawrie the prop rotation. Robson to cover 9 and 13. Leilua to cover 11 and 12.

Run on forwards
8. Vaughan
9. McInnes
10. Graham
11. T Sims
12. Frizell
13. De Belin

Bench
14. Robson
15. K Sims
16. Lawrie or new first grade ready prop
17. Leilua

ISP
8. Lawrie or new first grade ready prop
10. Timm
15. Kerr
16. Junior prop

Vaughan was unfortunately injured and gone for the season but all the fatigue and niggling injuries occurred in the back row as was the case the previous year.
Our back row is the main motor of our forwards and when it stalls we start to lose games we should never lose.
IMO picking extra props or utilities doesn’t fix that issue.
A better back line consistently capable of taking pressure off the forwards would be a better remedy all round and would allow us to have far better options in every respect.