I hate Full Tilt

[Whos Ya Daddy]

Most probably.

The hardest thing about playing high stakes is sticking to your guns.

It's easy to make a call playing for a $100, same for $1000, but when you're in a tourny with upwards of $50k first prize and you're down to the last 100 or so, then calls and re-raises can become more difficult.

Thats what separates the best from the rest - not hesitating despite the stakes. It's also where you can pick off the weaker players who you know wont call with just about anything other than the nuts.

The hardest thing about playing high stakes is the standard of play is better.

Any decent tournament player makes the right/standard moves regardless of the prize.

What seperates the best from the rest is they play better or run well.

 

[The Dodger]

i got into this ages ago.
i started of winning a free tournament and got like $3 from it.
i started in 2c-4c tables and made my way up.
i would put in $1, win up to about $5 and pull out.
then went higher and higher doing the same thing.

on one table, i started off with $5, got it up to $20.
i had a pair of A's and another A came out on the flop.
this one idiot went all in thinking her one A would win it, i went all in with my $20.
another guy went all in trying to chase a straight draw.
i ended up pulling like $75 from that one game.
i was cheering.

then the down slump came.
i went one day, the whole day, without winning a single hand.
like i mean from 9 in the morning till 1 the next morning.

the next day i went into higher tables and won a bit, so i stayed there.
but the same thing happened again.
i ended up losing all my money (i think it was something like $220).
ever since then, i play live and live only.

online poker sites are like poker machines.
they have a win loss ratio.
its a farkn rought.

 

[Tommy Smith]

That's part of it, yes, but the skill advantage these players have over the rest of us is enormous. It's extremely difficult playing at a table where you're under constant pressure from players who are adept at exploiting leaks in your game, while having no obvious leaks of their own.

I understand your point. Skill is obviously important, and having the biggest balls is part of that.

I was watching the final two tables of the Pokerstars Sunday Millions a month or so ago. And one of the sites top pros was there and he had plenty of high stakes experiences.

His opponents for the most part would probably have never bee in in a position where they were 10 spots away from about 500k.

And the way that the pro picked them off was a testament to the importance of playing on your opponents inability to make calls under pressure. At one stage he raised 10 hands in a row and never got a single caller.

he had the ability and experience to put the stakes out of hid mind and play his opponents. Whereas everyone else was terrified to make a move because of the money at stake.

And im just taling from an average poker players viewpoint. If you were to get to the final table of a major tourny, making that decision to put your chips in doesnt come easy. Good players never get blinded out, average players do because they are afraid of getting knocked out.

Again, thats all part of being a better player. But theres plenty of players who understand poker and make good moves, but not as many who can stick to their guns at the very end.

 

[Ghoulies]

I understand your point. Skill is obviously important, and having the biggest balls is part of that.

I was watching the final two tables of the Pokerstars Sunday Millions a month or so ago. And one of the sites top pros was there and he had plenty of high stakes experiences.

His opponents for the most part would probably have never bee in in a position where they were 10 spots away from about 500k.

And the way that the pro picked them off was a testament to the importance of playing on your opponents inability to make calls under pressure. At one stage he raised 10 hands in a row and never got a single caller.

he had the ability and experience to put the stakes out of hid mind and play his opponents. Whereas everyone else was terrified to make a move because of the money at stake.

And im just taling from an average poker players viewpoint. If you were to get to the final table of a major tourny, making that decision to put your chips in doesnt come easy. Good players never get blinded out, average players do because they are afraid of getting knocked out.

Again, thats all part of being a better player. But theres plenty of players who understand poker and make good moves, but not as many who can stick to their guns at the very end.

Those players who folded to 10 raises in a row, they're not good players. This pro was just lucky enough to draw a particularly fishy table (not that uncommon when you're playing in the biggest donk fest of all the major online tourneys). I absolutely agree with Who's Ya Daddy's post, and disagree with your last paragraph. There are plenty of players who understand the fundamentals of poker (good hand selection, pot odds etc.), but what's holding them back is a failure to adjust to the correct end game strategy and their lack of hand reading ability.

When I made my earlier post I was more referring to deeper stack situations where skill advantages become more important. I can guarantee that if any poster here who is complaining about the fish always sucking out on them, played the 400NL games online over even a small sample size they'd be totally destroyed. Not because of the fear of losing a stack, but because of the enormous gulf in ability between them and the regulars.

 

[HevyDevy]

I often play online lol, despite my age. I once went from finishing 8th in an FTP freeroll for 3 bucks and turning that into something like 45, but from there it went downhill and fast. AK with 2 pair against J10 with nothing, calls the gutshot and BAM there goes $20. Deeply frustrating. This happens at every site you go to though.

Yes but if you're playing with your entire bankroll on one table then you're going to go bust eventually.

Even if you put your cash in ahead every time you will eventually be sucked out on.

It can be difficult if you are starting at micro stakes to build that bankroll - it takes time and patience - but remember you really need 10-15 full buy-ins in order to ride out variance (assuming you are one of the better players at whatever stakes you are playing).

In regards to Tommy's post - how the f**k does anyone let a single player steal the blinds for 10 consecutive hands? You've got to make a stand at some point and re-raise.

In-fact, good luck winning any tournament if you don't re-raise with nothing at least occasionally.

 

[Satsok]

hows this for f**kin bullsh*t.. fair enough it was my own fault for not signing up with the club but yeah..

i was playing APL at a club near my place last week, basically scraped it to the first break with 5k, before the next blinds went up i doubled up a few times and i was sitting on 20k, i hit a massive hot streak and ended up with like 330k before the final table even came around..

i get to the final table and the bloke is like are you a member of the club? im like nah dude, hes like oh, well u cant win the money.. im like wtf, are u serious? what if u give me the money and then i go sign up, you can come and watch me if you like, hes like nah i cant do that, plus the membership is closed for the night..

im like you know what f**k this, and just walked out.. i would have cleaned up $300 for sure, no1 was even near my chip stack and i was getting killer cards.. when i left there was like 6 people left on the final table, hell i would have even did a shifty with the blokes working there and would have given them $100 to shut their mouths coz there was only 2 of them working..

ive learnt my lesson though, ima member of all the clubs i play at now.. the pro tourneys that the APL have are pretty good tho.. ive never made final table, i always finish like 13-9th in the pro tourneys

 

[Bumble]

I tried Full Tilt just to see what it was like - after trying (and quitting) both Party and Stars due to bad beats and what not (I'm still waiting for Party to send me the $160 i won off them a few weeks ago too, the pricks)

so I was playing a $33 SnG, a guy pushes infront of me, I've been watching this guy overbet virtually any ace and so with A-9 suited I figure I'm in front. I call, he shows A-6.

Flop: 10-5-9

Turn: 8

River: 7

Fanf**kingtastic. Back to live poker for me.

 

[Tommy Smith]

There's no doubt that it's fixed. Someone here made the best comparision between online poker and poker machines.

They both have formulas to ensure they rake in as much as possible.

 

[Ghoulies]

There's no doubt that it's fixed. Someone here made the best comparision between online poker and poker machines.

They both have formulas to ensure they rake in as much as possible.

No doubt? That's hilarious. How would the situation Bumble describe benefit Full Tilt? This is a SNG, FT have already collected their rake from him.

How about something other than anecdotal evidence as to how online poker is rigged?

And for the record, A6 is only a 2-1 dog against A9s. Don't 2-1 dogs win occasionally in live poker too? :roll:

 

[HevyDevy]

The worst beats I've seen have been in live games.

 

[JuniorBlocker]

Nah, I'm done with it, I'll play the cash I have left and piss off to stars.

Ferguson again today, aces cracked by J/7 unsuited.

Poker Stars in no better.

1st hand.

Me: K,K

Other: A,8 ( unsuited)

THey hit a 8 high straight on the river...... This is after me raising 6x the BB pre-flop. I raised again even more after the flop no Ace or King on the board. HE calls me all the way with nothing... chasing and hits at the death.

 

[Bumble]

No doubt? That's hilarious. How would the situation Bumble describe benefit Full Tilt? This is a SNG, FT have already collected their rake from him.

How about something other than anecdotal evidence as to how online poker is rigged?

And for the record, A6 is only a 2-1 dog against A9s. Don't 2-1 dogs win occasionally in live poker too? :roll:

Actually A-6 has a 22% chance of winning the hand pre-flop...and at no point did I say it was rigged, just frustration.

Seriously, everytime I've busted out online it's been after getting all my chips in in a relatively expensive SnG and losing after being a massive favourite. The reason I'm stopping online play is my lack of patience to build up a bankroll by playing small stakes, which I usually do for a day or so but after only making $10-15 get frustrated and play something like the $33 SnG I mentioned. Gotta work on that, I know.

 

[Tommy Smith]

Part of my problem was greed.

I love SnG Heads-up games on PokerStars. Its an easy way to quadruple up your money by playing 4 player heads-up.

Problem was id start with the $21 entries, win a few of those and get my account up. Then id be onto the $52.50 entries and by the time my account would reach around $400-500 id be playing the $215 4 player heads-up.

One time i got home after a night on the piss and lost $600 odd in about 25 minutes. Ironically i won it all back the next day by finishing 2nd in a 180 player $12 turbo SnG.

But then the same story would ensue, i'd cop a few bad beats, get frustrated and in an attempt to win it all back quickly lose it all. I guess i lack the temperament. It also helps to have a plan...it wasnt so bad when i had the specific plan to make enough each week in order to enter the Sunday Millions.

 

[Ghoulies]

Actually A-6 has a 22% chance of winning the hand pre-flop...and at no point did I say it was rigged, just frustration.

Seriously, everytime I've busted out online it's been after getting all my chips in in a relatively expensive SnG and losing after being a massive favourite. The reason I'm stopping online play is my lack of patience to build up a bankroll by playing small stakes, which I usually do for a day or so but after only making $10-15 get frustrated and play something like the $33 SnG I mentioned. Gotta work on that, I know.

A6o has 29.5% equity against A9s preflop (source: Pokerstove).

Fair enough if it's frustration, but Tommy Smith's comparison between online poker and poker machines is ludicrous. Just because you stick 'online' before poker doesn't mean the game is suddenly shady.

 

[HevyDevy]

Eaxactly, although I swear around 75% of my hands in the Sunday Millions this morning contained a 2 (no exaggeration either).

But that's the way it goes. Had a great run deep last week but couldn't find a hand this week and eventually bowed out holding QQ v AK.

Here's a funny yarn though. Last week I busted in 5 out of 6 SnGs holding K-K. Once was against Aces, once was against A-K when he went runner-runner flush and the other three times against lower pairs.

The punchline - I'm playing in a tournament at Star City, I pick up Kings, end up all-in v pocket 5s and guess what? Flop is 8-8-5.

So there you go, bad beats happen.

For all the whinging, people have to realise that if they keep sticking all their chips in the middle they are going to bust.

Even as a 4-1 favourite, you're going to get mowed down 25% of the time.

Blaming the websites is really just an excuse for playing poorly. And if you stick it all in the middle early in a tourney holding 10s and hoping to survive against an opponent holding 2 overcards then you deserve to bust.

 

[Tommy Smith]

Im fully aware of everything you just said Hevy. And my "its definately rigged" comment was over the top.

And I realise that even if you are 90% favourite to win alot of races, in order to win a major tourny you have to win alot of those races and sooner or later you more than likely end up copping a bad beat.

Hence why no-one wins a large tourny without being extremely lucky at some stage and also has the "luck" of their better hand holding in all the important races.

But, i dont think its outlandish to say that online poker creates alot of "action" hands to maximise their rake.

Just the other week i was on a table where QQ re-raised KK all-in only to be called by AA. One example i know, but it does happen often. Particularly on cash tables.

I myself was on the right end of one in a $200 pot last week. I was holding pocket AA against KK and 22 on a QQ2 flop. The turn was a K and the river was an A.

And not alot longer after that i had J 8 on a J 8 5 2 8 board. All the money went in and i got nailed by pocket JJs.

Again, granted these are just one off examples and ive seen a few during live poker as well. Infact i was watching the WSOP final table on ESPN and the winner hit trips or a full house on the river about 3 or 4 times to win the tourny. Massive luck.

But i do notice it happen with greater regularity in online poker. A valid argument against that is you do play alot more hands in online poker which is true.

But what can i say, maybe im just naturally suspicious.

 

[HevyDevy]

And that's understandable - when you're on a downswing you feel like the world is against you.

In-fact, I'm taking a break from SnGs atm because my luck has been so terrible in them recently.

Fortunately I've been able to off-set that on the cash tables where copping a beat doesn't mean you're eliminated.

Anyway, it was nice to win a $200 pot today when my Aces held up against Kings - and very nice to cash for $2000 in the Sunday Millions last week.

In the meantime, here is a brain-teaser for you.

You hold A-A in early position and make a standard raise to 3bb. Two players flat call.

Flop is Q-10-5. You bet $7 and are raised to $16. You call.

The turn is another Q. You check and your opponent bets out $40.

What does he hold and what is your next action?

 

[watatank]

In the meantime, here is a brain-teaser for you.

You hold A-A in early position and make a standard raise to 3bb. Two players flat call.

Flop is Q-10-5. You bet $7 and are raised to $16. You call.

The turn is another Q. You check and your opponent bets out $40.

What does he hold and what is your next action?

Not sure if it's meant for me, but does he have 10-10 or 5-5 in which case you fold?

 

[HevyDevy]

They're in calling range in position but I don't put him on those hands myself.

For the record, I played the hand very poorly and forced myself to fold by failing to distinguish where I stood.

 

[watatank]

Yeah, I suppose it would be hard to put them on a hand given how the hand was played out. There are too many hands that could beat you and unless you had an awesome read you can't do anything else but fold.