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In the end it's the NRL who have cheated the Storm!

gronkathon

First Grade
Messages
9,266
Oh and FTR even though I am willing to discuss the cap in seperate light I find the thread title utterly incorrect
 

Crusher

Coach
Messages
11,482
As I said, NRL would be responsible for the Top up payments. So Souths could keep that young talent who became a star player and so could the NRL.

Like I've said it needs work but I'd like to see a workable alternative. I still haven't.
 

mickdo

Coach
Messages
17,355
As I said, NRL would be responsible for the Top up payments. So Souths could keep that young talent who became a star player and so could the NRL.

It's irrelevant who makes the top up payments unless there is MORE MONEY in the game. You will just get player managers holding clubs to ransom as usual by threatening that their players can get more money in other codes, just as they do now. The points system is useless in that situation.

Like I've said it needs work but I'd like to see a workable alternative. I still haven't.

Just because something is different doesn't make it a better solution. All this scheme seems to be 'fixing' to some degree is the potential to cheat the salary cap, but in doing so removes market forces on salaries. But the salary cap rorting issue can also be fixed in other ways, such as the player's association allowing the NRL to investigate players bank accounts etc. So why aren't they the ones who have 'cheated the Storm'?
 
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Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
It's just getting to the stage now where we have to choose between adjusting the cap or letting all these good players go. Seriously, now Folau is gone. Would we rather keep Folau or let him go because 'Cronulla can't afford him'. Stuff Cronulla. Everyone is sick of seeing these players go, at the moment all we are doing is lowering each team to Cronulla's level, we should be striving to be at the Storm's level.
 

gronkathon

First Grade
Messages
9,266
Is everyone sick of these players leaving?

Or is everyone sick of these people using the game of League to whore themselves out to the highest bidding code?
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
57,073
Any genuine rugby league fan should feel sympathy for the Storm. When I say the Storm I am referring to the players and officials that have been responsible for developing this team into the best in the league over the last few seasons.

The conversations in the media, forums and around the water cooler in the past week have focused on the fact that the storm are cheats. Let’s make one thing clear. The cheats are the small number of individuals who went to extraordinary lengths to rort the system. Assuming the players and staff knew nothing then we should not and cannot tarnish them with the same brush.

The fact is that the Melbourne Storm have developed and nurtured young talent better than any other club in the last 10 years. You only have to look at Folau, Inglis, Smith and so on to see a group of players who left the comfort of home to start their careers as teenagers in a foreign land dominated by AFL. You then need to look at how successful they have become as a result of how well the Storm is run.

As a Manly fan I should have every right to say that we were ripped off in 2007. Parramatta fans probably feel the same.
As a fan of the game however I believe that the deficiencies in the game have rorted the Melbourne Storm.

The problem is that the words salary cap and loyalty will never fit in the same sentence. How can any club ever hope to find, nurture and grow talent under the current salary cap arrangements when they are forced to let them go as soon as they become stars? What culture does this breed?

I believe the events of the past week have been a blessing in disguise. Harsh yes, but they have highlighted the major deficiencies of the salary cap.

The game will only survive if young talent continues to be discovered. We all talk about how important loyalty is but unfortunately these days all but a few players are… through no fault of their own. The cap forbids it.

We’ve heard a million solutions to the problem but one such solution that is crystal clear is that major concessions to the cap need to be made to encourage loyalty and that requires the NRL to put their money where their mouth is. I believe if a club has developed a player from a young age then they should be given every concession to keep them. THe NRL generates over $100m every year from the game so surely there is room do do so.

Let’s save our anger for a few wrong doing individuals but let’s praise the Storm for how well they have demonstrated player development. I may 'hate' the Storm when they play Manly but I can only admire them for what they have shown can be done for the game.

No...Cheat as they did to keep all their superstars, we lost the 2009 Grand Final fair and square (even though the Fui penalty on Slater was bullsh*t). Ditto you guys and your loss.

I don't understand this whole, "We were runners up, they cheated - ergo we are rightfully the champs now" mentality. Your team and my team didn't win on the day. Simple.
 

Crusher

Coach
Messages
11,482
One things for sure...it's great to see so many people in this forum with so much passion for the game. If only my writing staff were as apssionate as you all.

We may disagree with each other but I do know that everyone has the interests of the game at heart.

I suggest the NRL listen to the people as they claim to do and have their researchers anaylse these forums. No-one has the full answer but I'm sure it's in here somewhere and mark my words their time has come to listen..
 
Messages
3,070
No...Cheat as they did to keep all their superstars, we lost the 2009 Grand Final fair and square (even though the Fui penalty on Slater was bullsh*t). Ditto you guys and your loss.

I don't understand this whole, "We were runners up, they cheated - ergo we are rightfully the champs now" mentality. Your team and my team didn't win on the day. Simple.

Manly, the club has publicly declared the opposite to that.

And I cant see where Crusher has said that either.
 

Ike E Bear

Juniors
Messages
1,998
Is everyone sick of these players leaving?

Or is everyone sick of these people using the game of League to whore themselves out to the highest bidding code?

Agreed 100% ... I wouldn't miss Folau terribly. The game is bigger than the players. Seriously.
 

Crusher

Coach
Messages
11,482
Let me stress to you all that I know that Waldron and Co are cheating scum. What I also know is that the salary cap was breached and the consequences, although harsh were probably deserved.

What I had hoped to point out (and yes the title should have been worded better) was that the Storm as a club has been coached and managed better than any other club in recent times. Take the cap issue out of the picture and I'm sure most people would agree. I also believe 100% that the current cap instigated this whole affair as with previous breaches by other clubs. (again, reinforcing that I do agree that it was blatantly wrong).

I said that I believed the NRL had cheated the Storm. I won't back down from that claim. I add that I believe the NRL has cheated EVERY CLUB by introducing a system that will never work, has been abused previously and will probably be abused again.

.
 

chrisD

Coach
Messages
14,741
All systems have strengths and weaknesses. All rules can be cheated. You people are representing only the weaknesses of the current system and strengths of the alternatives, and then using these as a springboard to defend the Storm and attack the NRL. Fortunately there's enough people around who see it for what it is. Thread title is disgraceful.
 

STG-Dragon

Juniors
Messages
1,554
What I had hoped to point out (and yes the title should have been worded better) was that the Storm as a club has been coached and managed better than any other club in recent times. Take the cap issue out of the picture and I'm sure most people would agree. I also believe 100% that the current cap instigated this whole affair as with previous breaches by other clubs. (again, reinforcing that I do agree that it was blatantly wrong).

I said that I believed the NRL had cheated the Storm. I won't back down from that claim. I add that I believe the NRL has cheated EVERY CLUB by introducing a system that will never work, has been abused previously and will probably be abused again.

Lol what a stupid post! How can they be coached and managed better than any club??? They had an illegal team e.g better players than everyone else! You can't just take out the salary cap as that is what all the rosters are based on. By the way all systems get abused, In sport or anywhere there is no 100% correct system. As there is always cheats trying to gain an advantage e.g Storm and Dogs etc.
 

Ike E Bear

Juniors
Messages
1,998
Let me stress to you all that I know that Waldron and Co are cheating scum. What I also know is that the salary cap was breached and the consequences, although harsh were probably deserved.

What I had hoped to point out (and yes the title should have been worded better) was that the Storm as a club has been coached and managed better than any other club in recent times. Take the cap issue out of the picture and I'm sure most people would agree. I also believe 100% that the current cap instigated this whole affair as with previous breaches by other clubs. (again, reinforcing that I do agree that it was blatantly wrong).

I said that I believed the NRL had cheated the Storm. I won't back down from that claim. I add that I believe the NRL has cheated EVERY CLUB by introducing a system that will never work, has been abused previously and will probably be abused again.

.

And if there was no such thing as a speed limit I would have never ever gotten a speeding ticket. Is the fact that I have gotten a speeding ticket my fault or the fault of the speed limit and the Governments that put them in place?

The Salary Cap definitely incentivised the Storm to cheat (if everyone else observes the rules and you don't then you have an immediate and tangible advantage). The Cap generally incentivises all of the clubs to try to maximise their effectiveness under the Cap ... this is why practically every club has been fined for breaches at one point or another.

It's very difficult to operate a full capacity without occasionally and inadvertently going over ... kind of like speeding. Generally speaking I don't purposefully speed - but I try to go the speed limit almost all the time. As a result there are times when my attention is more fixed on the road than my speedo and I go over. Two or three times in those situations I have been caught speeding and fined. But that's the risk I take when I try to drive the speed limit all the time. The penalties are fair, but they don't really encourage me to radically change my behaviour. Much like general breaches of the Salary Cap by practically every club.

What the Storm did was the equivalent of going 160kph through a school zone at 3.15pm on a weekday.

They cheated. They weren't cheated. Period.

The Salary Cap and what it aims to achieve is fine. Everyone can see that it should be higher in the interests of keeping talent in our game from being poached by rival codes and competitions ... and furthermore professional athletes arguably deserve to be paid their true worth. That doesn't change the fact that having a good distribution of talent across the clubs is a worthwhile goal. Increasing it wouldn't change that and even if the Salary Cap of $1 billion, the Storm would have cheated if they had the means. Abolishing it, would have fixed it all up, but then the quality of the competition would plummet as the clubs with the biggest wallets would have an insurmountable advantage.

Finally, wouldn't a points-based cap system still potentially lead to players being forced out? If 16 clubs each had a 500 point cap and the average value of all players exceeded 20 (500 points divided by 25 players in a squad ... assuming you didn't want a squad to be bigger than 25) then players would be squeezed out, right?

No system is perfect ... that doesn't excuse blatant cheating.
 
Messages
12,171
No...Cheat as they did to keep all their superstars, we lost the 2009 Grand Final fair and square (even though the Fui penalty on Slater was bullsh*t). Ditto you guys and your loss.

I don't understand this whole, "We were runners up, they cheated - ergo we are rightfully the champs now" mentality. Your team and my team didn't win on the day. Simple.
if the storm won the grand final fair and square the nrl wouldnt have stripped them of the premiership (by the way, why do they still have the trophy?) my take on it is after removing the storm the parramatta eels were the last legal team to play in the 2009 premiership so the title should pass to them but i can understand the players not wanting to be just handed the trophy

p.s. crusher you made some good points in your post but the thread title is a joke was that just a rev-up to get everyone to view it?
 
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Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
57,073
Manly, the club has publicly declared the opposite to that.

And I cant see where Crusher has said that either.

It was in relation to the comment that Manly has every right to feel robbed, and ditto for Parramatta. And we've also come out and publicly said accepting the 2009 Premiership would be ludicrous.

Every single NRL fan of every single NRL club reserves the right to feel angry and cheated, but to say Manly and Parramatta and their fans should be singled out because they directly were involved in recent Premiership games with the Storm is a little silly. Cheating or not, Manly could not beat the Storm on that day and neither could we.
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
57,073
if the storm won the grand final fair and square the nrl wouldnt have stripped them of the premiership (by the way, why do they still have the trophy?) my take on it is after the storm were disqualified the parramatta eels were the last legal team to play in the 2009 premiership so the title should pass to them but i can understand the players not wanting to be just handed the trophy

Because they didn't cheat in the game per se - OK, they slowed down the play-the-ball, 'wrestled', etc. But the game was won fair and square on the day by the illegal team.

The fact it was illegal doesn't mean they didn't win the game fair and square.
 

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