Is Cameron Smith the best No 9 ever?

[LazyDreamer]

Yes he is the best hooker ever.. by far.. lol..

I dunno. I got shouted this hooker for my 21st...she was incredible. A great 'ruck'. And no 5 o'clock shadow!!!

 

[RL1908]

Walters and Ellias were the only two modern day hookers who i think could make a case for having the skills to do the old school job.

I'd add Mal Cochrane @ Manly through the 1980s. He performed his traditional scrum duties well, while was one of the first of what would become the modern running kicking dummy-half hooker. More than able goal kicker too.

 

[Smithtown]

If Smith is to be compared with others, then I would limit it to the era of hookers wearing the No.9 jersey i.e. from the 1989 season onwards. That seems to be a reasonable cut-off date.

If you had to use a cut-off date when speaking about hookers, it would probably be better to use the year that the handover at the end of the set of 6 was introduced. I think that was 83 or 84. This clearly reduced the number of scrums - hence made the 'ballwinner only' hooker more redundant.

I'm glad Mal Cochrane has been mentioned. Easily the best hooker never to represent, and had sublime skills in all facets of the game. Also played alot of fullback when coming through the grades - which shows the level of talent he had.

But to restrict this style of 'open' hooker to just the late 80's onwards is a disservice to many players. Jack Jeffries has already been mentioned - he could almost be seen as the prototype of the modern hooker. He was selected in the inaugural Australian schoolboys side of the early 70's and was selected for City rep honours after only a handful of first grade games in 1978.

There were other open style hookers who were coming through the ranks about this time. Ray Brown (Wests/Manly) being the most dominant, but also young players like Steve Martin (Penrith), Chris Guider (St George) & John Conway (Cronulla/St George/Newtown). All were supremely gifted in the open, although injury cruelled both Guider & Conway.

 

[Noa]

Put simply, you cant compare blokes like Kelly to Walters, you've got to seperate them into two different classes

Modern day hookers and Old School hookers. Walters and Ellias were the only two modern day hookers who i think could make a case for having the skills to do the old school job.
Buderus being mentioned in the same sentence as those two for modern day hookers is imo, a disservice to Boxhead and Backdoor. Buderus was good, so too is Smith. Neither can hold a cant to Benny and Steve.

Steve had no kicking game, not much subtlety and average passing game. Take those rose coloured glasses off.

His forte was his running game and defence.

Benny Elias, even though I dont rate him as high as Boxhead would make a much easier transition to todays game.

 

[RL1908]

If you had to use a cut-off date when speaking about hookers, it would probably be better to use the year that the handover at the end of the set of 6 was introduced. I think that was 83 or 84. This clearly reduced the number of scrums - hence made the 'ballwinner only' hooker more redundant.

I can see what you're saying - but I'd probably opt for the 1982 change where the non-offending team got the feed and the loose-head. Still, clubs didn't suddenly in 1982 (or 1983 with the change-over rule) dump all the 'old school" hookers.

In choosing 1989 I was looking more at the rep level. Not discounting that there were pre-1989 hookers playing a prototype of today's hooker, and they would have done well as modern NRL hookers, but they can only be measured against their peers (by selection in state/Aust teams) in terms of value and impact. Of the pre-1989 hookers listed, only Ray Brown gained higher honours (and from memory he played a bit at prop as well).

No doubt though, the merits of great hookers is the hardest position to debate.

 

[Non Terminator]

Showing my age, but of all positions the No. 9 is hardest to compare over time. There was a time that the most influential statistic for judging the merit of a hooker was the scrum count. The other stuff - attack and defense - was an added benefit.

But for me, Steve Walters is still the best I've seen.

A short post but a great post.

 

[Noa]

boxhead Walters would chew Smith up and spit him out....he was twice the footballer that Smith will ever be.

But the former Raiders rake said he could only dream of possessing the repertoire that has seen Smith take a stranglehold on the Queensland and Test hooking roles.
"Cam has gone past me, easily. He can do more things than I could ever do," he said.
"Blokes get better all the time. Cameron's a wonderful player, he's become a really key member of the Queensland team.


''He's just more skilful than I was. For a start, he can kick goals. I would have liked to have played against Cam at my best, but he can certainly do more things than I could.



"He plays a bit different to me. He's great with the ball in his hands, whereas I was probably stronger and my emphasis was on making yardage.
"You never know when people first start out if they are going to make it. I don't think anyone knew if Cameron would play Origin when he started out, but he's come a long way.
"He's a great competitor, he's very consistent, he's skilful and he's got a good football head.

''He reads the game so well. He's got me covered."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/cameron-smith-a-king-of-hookers/story-e6frf9if-1225738657687

:lol:

 

[duck_dodgers]

2009 hooker stats

Tries

Farah 7
Payne 4
Aiton 4
Friend 4
Luke 3
Ballin 3
Keating 3
Smith 3

Try assists

Farah 21
Ennis 18
Payne 10
Ballin 9
Friend 9
Smith 9

Line Breaks

Farah 10
Payne 6
Luke 5
Keating 5
Ennis 5
Smith 5

Line Break assists

Farah 18
Ennis 16
Friend 11
Luke 9
Ballin 9
Payne 8
Smith 8

Average metres run

Farah 79.2
Luke 74.6
Young 64.7
Aiton 62.1
Smith 57.2

http://www.nrlstats.com/

 

[Loudstrat]

Noel Kelly was mostly a prop! Before the team of the century faux pais one name dominatyed from that ear. Killer Kerney - still the most influential rake in GF history.

Modern day? One assumes the post Elias era - Benny shands Walters who shades Buderus. That's of the Aussies, all shaded by Kieron Cunningham.

Currently - Ennis.

Smith can kick. Then so could John Gray.

 

[joel caine number 1 fan]

ill name from the 90s on only cause the 9 has changed a lot

1.Ben Elias
-Steve Walters
3.Jim Sedaris
4.Danny Buderus
5.Robbie Farah
6.Cameron Smith

 

[boonboon]

Smith IMO is below Farah - could never see Smith winning a Dally M or even getting close whereas Farah has been just nudged for second and 4th this year .

As for all time - I can only speak for the late 80s onwards but Benny and Steve Walters are way out in front for mine Smith probably around the same as Buderus both behind Farah

 

[legend]

Smith will be the best ever by the time he has retired. If I was to build a team from scratch, he owuld be the player I would start with.

He makes NO mistakes, is a very calm player under pressure and is a great leader.

Someone said put him in a struggling side and see how he goes. Silly argument IMO. He is the biggest part of the puzzle for Melbourne and the reason they don't struggle.

Cam Smith is a superb player and is in the elite class of hookers IMO.

 

[little_aza]

could never see Smith winning a Dally M or even getting close

are you sure you meant that...?

 

[Ron Jeremy]

after watching Elias, Walters play, Smith is better then them, what makes him better? his allround game.

Elias was a brillant ball player, Walters was great at runing from dummy half, Smith does all that as well kick 40/20's and goal kicker.

Yeah he's a grub, but imo he's better then both players, and Elias still to do this day was one of my alltime fav players.

 

[legend]

To be fair to Elias and Walters, they played in a time of contested scrums and striking in the play the ball was allowed. They also played the amjority of their careers in a five metre defensive line and still stood out.

 

[Broncodr01d]

Smith will be the best ever by the time he has retired. If I was to build a team from scratch, he owuld be the player I would start with.

He makes NO mistakes, is a very calm player under pressure and is a great leader.

Someone said put him in a struggling side and see how he goes. Silly argument IMO. He is the biggest part of the puzzle for Melbourne and the reason they don't struggle.

Cam Smith is a superb player and is in the elite class of hookers IMO.

Good post, I wrote:

Cameron Smith is closing and by the time he is done will have a resume that my end the debate purely on sheer weight of achievments. I want to see Smith in a struggling side, something he hasn't done on a week to week basis. That would be interesting.

To expand on that, what I was eluding too is that Buderus in a struggling Newcastle side took his game to another level when he wasn't with his mate Joey.

Smith in a struggling side most likely would do the same. That's what makes it interesting, I would love to see him in a side struggling weekly. If he AGAIN elevated his game (scary), I don't think his standing as #1 would be up for debate.

The quotes from Walters is a reach to close off one's argument for Smith. Walters isn't going to come out and say he is still the greatest, it's not for him to be stating that. If he did, he enters Mundine territory. Sure Smith has an added string to his bow because he can kick, but Buderus didn't (arguably a touch better than Walters when required) either and it didn't effect him all too much considering both had excellent kickers to fall back on for the best part of their careers (Walters had Stuart and Daley, Buderus had Johns).

As hookers, all three can lay claim to having a hand on the title. As I eluded too, on sheer weight of achievments and awards, Smith when he retires may pip them all when he hangs them up. Considering his is the next QLD and Australian captain, Smith can make a move to become the most decorated player the game has seen.

 

[Noa]

Ron Jeremy brought up a good point too.

The fact Cam is widely acknowledged as King Grub tells you he'd be right at home in any era.

 

[Southernsaint]

For what it's worth, I believe that Wayne "Snoopy" Collins is the greatest hooker of the modern era.

As for the best 9 of all time, Norm Provan is my favourite...

 

[Broncodr01d]

For what it's worth, I believe that Wayne "Snoopy" Collins is the greatest hooker of the modern era.

As for the best 9 of all time, Norm Provan is my favourite...

He had nothing on Barry Berrigan ... each to their own though :lol:

 

[Raider_69]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/cameron-smith-a-king-of-hookers/story-e6frf9if-1225738657687

:lol:

What do you expect the bloke to say

"Na im heaps better, always will be", Steve is a legend player and even better bloke, as modest as they come. You could probably ask him and he'll tell you Alan Tongue is a better hooker than he was
Proves nothing mate

FTR, Steve had a good kicking game, but as tends to happen when you've got one of the best boots of all time in Ricky Start, he never needed to use it. And his passing was as crisp and accurate as you could find, from Walters to Stuart to Daley to Meninga they could cover well over the width of the footy field in a matter of seconds with crisp long perfectly thrown balls. So i dont know where you get the idea the man's passing game was average