Is Cameron Smith the best No 9 ever?

[RL1908]

Well revolutions do start at base level, and I think the examples demonstrate a relatively quick process. Some of the coaches of that era were some of the great thinkers - Warren Ryan, Roy Masters, Bob Fulton. Ironic that the greatest coach still plied ahead with an old style hooker, but given the backline at his disposal the Michelin Man could have played dummy half and they wouldn't have been any worse off!

Not sure - I think we might be looking at an example of a player-driven innovation, rather than coaches. Elias & Cochrance in particular expanded the hooker's role themselves as they rose through the lower grades into first grade. I'm struggling to think of an example of a first grade coach in the mid-1980s manufacturing someone to play the new/expanded hooker role/skills that Elias, Cochrane & co. were bringing to the game.

 

[typicalfan]

Most modern day hookers are reformed halfbacks. Danny Buderus was an Australian rep halfback in his junior days.

I think since the scrums became less a contest the rise in these style of players came through. Ben Elias though was a fully fledged hooker with halfback traits.

 

[typicalfan]

imo cant really compare hookers or halves from different eras, they each have different roles in different game states soo yeh

That is true in regards to comparing a guy like Noel Kelly to Cameron Smith. The hooking position is so different they may as well be different positions. The position Noel Kelly took up was not unlike a current RU hooker. He played prop as well as hooker.

The no.9 position now is more like a halfback in the ruck sometimes having more influence in playmaking than the halfback themselves.

 

[DeeJ]

Most modern day hookers are reformed halfbacks. Danny Buderus was an Australian rep halfback in his junior days.

I find this hard to believe seeing as though he rarely ever kicked and when he did it was terrible.

 

[typicalfan]

His kicking game plus his build were probably the main reasons he ended up at hooker. Buderus didn't move to hooker until he was a stones throw from first grade. He was an Australian Schoolboys halfback. If his 5/8 had a good kicking game his was probably not as important, his organisational skills and leadership are very pronounced though.

 

[Vic Mackey]

Ben Elias though was a fully fledged hooker with halfback traits.

actually ben elias played halfback most of his juniors and came into trade at balmain at a half.

in his debut in reserve grade he scored 4 tries and kicked 5 goals.

 

[Doug2234]

If you go by NRL form over the last 5 seasons then Farah is #1.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry im trying to figure out if you are serious or not!!

 

[Doug2234]

Its hard to compare Hookers of this age to last.

Different style of play. Cam Smith pound for pound is a very good footballer. Whether he is a "great" hooker i dont know!

 

[joel caine number 1 fan]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry im trying to figure out if you are serious or not!!

i think he ment best attacking hooker and i would agree if you dont just look at what he led the stats in
a lot of people on these forums treat farah like hes a useless hooker,and i cant figure out why :roll:

 

[typicalfan]

actually ben elias played halfback most of his juniors and came into trade at balmain at a half.

in his debut in reserve grade he scored 4 tries and kicked 5 goals.

I meant that he had all the hooking skills as well as his playmaking skills. He still did strike for the ball and did that pretty well on occasion. Comparing most modern hookers who might have a similar background who don't possess those skills before the rule changes in the scrums, I was using Elias as an example.

 

[Apey]

i think he ment best attacking hooker and i would agree if you dont just look at what he led the stats in
a lot of people on these forums treat farah like hes a useless hooker,and i cant figure out why :roll:

I don't think people treat him as a useless hooker... one read of the interstate forum during SOO time will provide more information on the subject. Particularly the posts of sando88 (well not any more), Ladmate, Tigers are pro.. etc.

 

[typicalfan]

Farah I would have as 4th best hooker of the decade. He will go into the new decade coming as the 2nd best hooker.

 

[Smithtown]

Not sure - I think we might be looking at an example of a player-driven innovation, rather than coaches. Elias & Cochrance in particular expanded the hooker's role themselves as they rose through the lower grades into first grade. I'm struggling to think of an example of a first grade coach in the mid-1980s manufacturing someone to play the new/expanded hooker role/skills that Elias, Cochrane & co. were bringing to the game.

Of the players I've mentioned Michael Moseley (Parra), Steve Martin (Penrith) and Ray Brown (Manly) also played backrow/lock.

Player v Coach Innovation is too difficult a question to answer really. Was Mario Fenech for example always a hooker or was he directed to that position by a smart young coach who could see the way the game was headed (eg Brian Smith - Fenech's U23s coach).

Players like Fenech and Allan Fallah would probably have been considered too tall and mobile for hooker a few years earlier, and would most probably have been directed to play at the back of the scrum.

Good topic & discussion - unsure of answers. Someone like Smith or Warren Ryan would obviously have them.

 

[Loudstrat]

Ron Hilditch was a tall hooker who only became a front rower after Jack Gibson signed Steve Edge.

Defensively, a hooker's role hasn't changed a bit, compared to that of a halfback or winger. In fact, thinking about it, a hooker's role in attack has only changed through the reduction of importance in scrummaging.

Elias, probably the most flamboyant attacking hooker we've had, was a converted halfback. Dummy half speed and service improved out of sign so that it became the norm with the Walters brothers. But old style hookers such as Cunningham and to a lesser extent Richard Swain are still useable in the modern game.

 

[Smithtown]

I think the mobility factor is a bigger issue than height - may not have emphasised that enough.

Hilditch is definitely old school, which shows as his last 4 years were solely as a prop. A better example would be Ken Stewart from Souths who was also tallish but old school - and replaced by a young Mario Fenech very quickly. Irony is that Parra then bought Stewart to replace Edge - but in his final year he too was converted to a prop as the youthful and more mobile Moseley took over.

Parra were well behind some other Clubs at the time with this hooker 'revolution' - about the only thing they were behind in.

Would have liked to have seen Cunningham ply his trade in the NRL for a year or so. There's a good history of Pommie hookers doing well in Australia - Mike Stephenson, John Gray, Lee Jackson and a small cameo for Brian Noble.

 

[Bluebags1908]

"Is Cameron Smith the best No 9 ever?"

In one word - "No".

 

[footy1]

Cameron Smith is a great player and I don't think anybody would dispute that. But to ask if he is the best hooker ever, I think he is definitely in the top few but wouldn't be at the top. Noel Kelly and Steve Walters are two players who I would say are better than Smith currently but Smith is still young. If he can pick it up even more in the next few years and sustain that form, he will be regarded amongst the best hookers to have played the game, but I'm just not sure about saying he IS the best.

 

[Lycon79]

:lol: at the Elias fans calling Smith a grub :crazy:

 

[Firey_Dragon]

Smith wouldn't even make the top 10 for the last 30 years IMO. But it really is hard to compare different eras, the role of hooker has changed substantially over the years.

Noel Kelly and Ben Elias would probably rate as the two best I've seen.

 

[Shorty]

I think in terms of consistency Smith is up there, he's not a flashy hooker like Farah, who, in reality is probably more of a halfback than hooker.
And hasn't had to carry his team like a Farah or Buderus figure but everyone saw how much Melbourne missed him last year.

A lot of people don't rate him because he's not doing the fancy footwork etc but he's almost in the Darren Lockyer mould of a workhorse that does the little things that mean everything to the team.

In terms of best ever, Walters.