Is this right?

[Thomas]

It was doing OK prior to the occupation much to the annoyance of the FFR.

It was also doing OK after the occupation. Better than ok, in reality.

So much so they nearly won the World Cup in the 1950's.

Some blame has also got to go to the ineptness of the French RL management at the time.

 

[screeny]

It was also doing OK after the occupation. Better than ok, in reality.

So much so they nearly won the World Cup in the 1950's.

Some blame has also got to go to the ineptness of the French RL management at the time.

Thomas, everyone blames crap RL management in France.

But our resource pool was swept from underneath us in the 40s. The successful team of the early 50s was the product of the golden era, and once they retured there was no development or foundation left to sustain the sport at an elite level.

 

[taipan]

And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

How inconvenient it is that we cannot change the past. Incidentally, Taipan, the Vichy regime managed to stay in power with very little on-going military support from the Germans, which seems to indicate that - as unpalatable as it might be to contemplate - the vast majority of the French people were remarkably complaisant about the existence of the regime.

And it was De Gaulle, after all, an enemy of the Vichy regime, who cemented rugby union's stranglehold -- long after the end of WW2.

And Woods if you opened your eyes on the odd occasion,you might see some light through your apologistic haze.
Yes the past,one can sense apartheid and union's flirtation would have been a festering sore for your code.
Vichy remained in power because of the presence/backing of Nazi troops and gestapo.
Bit like the Iraqis under Hussein,weaponry and fear(internal squads) tend to make the populace compliant to a degree.
De Gaulle was not everyone's cup of tea after WW2.
And it was as subsequent socialist govt ,who had the guts belatedly to point the finger at union's involvement in trying to undermine rugby league.Long after the end of WW2.Especially after De Gaulle's mob handed over the RL assets to union.
Great tradition to aspire NOT.

 

[taipan]

It was also doing OK after the occupation. Better than ok, in reality.

So much so they nearly won the World Cup in the 1950's.

Some blame has also got to go to the ineptness of the French RL management at the time.

Thomas you continue to harp on about the 50s team the exception.FFS just after WW2 ,when the remnants of the strength of RL prior and just after the war were still around.
Yes management at times played a role,but as has been spelt out to you ad infinitum,the code lost its assets,its status and govt support and its name.No pro code can grow or strengthen under those circumstances.No entree into schools.
More so when a supposed amateur sport such as union in France,was paying players.
Appears you don't want to throw any blame on to vichy's influence or union's for that matter.Why did the govt insist the code be called "game of X111" ?,until the game was able to get rugby back into its title during the end of the 20th century.

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

from woods99
"the vast majority of the French people were remarkably complaisant about the existence of the regime."

You are fantastic my friends,
like French are couards, in August 1940 we waited that the 20,000,000 inhabitants of Australia come to help us to throw the barbarians out of France.
Why ?:
. because an Australian is made in a steel and a titanium much stronger, much more solid than the German steel of the Rhur,
. because an Australian is a superior man, not a frog,
. because consequently the force of an Australian is 10 times the force of a barbarian.

Unfortunately on August 1940
. the 20,000,000 Australian preferred remain on their homes and,
. let us manage how we could with the barbarians !

Moreover leader are also not very clear for you! and you want give us lessons !:
Which is the country which refused Dutch Jewish refugees ? : Yours
http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/1940/july_1_1940_98678.html


From june 1940 to july 1944, which is the country which maintained diplomatic relations with Vichy ? : Yours
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:A98NRjzswO0J:www.ambafrance-au.org/article.php3%3Fid_article%3D1798+relations+diplomatiques+vichy+et+australie+1940&hl=fr&gl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=2
.

 

[Sam_the_man]

I think what Frenchy is trying to say is what the hell would you know you arrogant Australian pr**k Woods!
But i maybe wrong

 

[taipan]

from woods99
"the vast majority of the French people were remarkably complaisant about the existence of the regime."

You are fantastic my friends,
like French are couards, in August 1940 we waited that the 20,000,000 inhabitants of Australia come to help us to throw the barbarians out of France.
Why ?:
. because an Australian is made in a steel and a titanium much stronger, much more solid than the German steel of the Rhur,
. because an Australian is a superior man, not a frog,
. because consequently the force of an Australian is 10 times the force of a barbarian.

Unfortunately on August 1940
. the 20,000,000 Australian preferred remain on their homes and,
. let us manage how we could with the barbarians !

Moreover leader are also not very clear for you! and you want give us lessons !:
Which is the country which refused Dutch Jewish refugees ? : Yours
http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/1940/july_1_1940_98678.html


From june 1940 to july 1944, which is the country which maintained diplomatic relations with Vichy ? : Yours
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:A98NRjzswO0J:www.ambafrance-au.org/article.php3%3Fid_article%3D1798+relations+diplomatiques+vichy+et+australie+1940&hl=fr&gl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=2
.

Entres nous, Woods is mote juste quinzistes apologist.He is de trop.
Woods, as does his code suffers from folie de grandeur.

Australians are well aware (au courant)of the sufferings of the French people during that time.It is well documented.We do not agree with Woods,he has idee' fixe .

 

[bobbis]

Thomas, everyone blames crap RL management in France.

But our resource pool was swept from underneath us in the 40s. The successful team of the early 50s was the product of the golden era, and once they retured there was no development or foundation left to sustain the sport at an elite level.

They won a test series against Australia in 1978, the last time Australia was actually beaten in a test series. So I don't think your comment that after that 'golden era' there was no development is valid. They beat Australia in series in 51,53 and 55, pre war theyd never beaten Australia. They beat Australia again in 67 and 78 those players certainly wouldnt have been developed pre war. I think its very simplistic merely to blame the vichy regime of French rugby league demise, it certainly contributed but it wasnt the death blow and it didnt make that demise inevitable.

 

[hgfds]

The 78 series had french refs an aberration look at other french results from this era the french where no longer a force in the 70s.

 

[screeny]

They won a test series against Australia in 1978, the last time Australia was actually beaten in a test series. So I don't think your comment that after that 'golden era' there was no development is valid. They beat Australia in series in 51,53 and 55, pre war theyd never beaten Australia. They beat Australia again in 67 and 78 those players certainly wouldnt have been developed pre war. I think its very simplistic merely to blame the vichy regime of French rugby league demise, it certainly contributed but it wasnt the death blow and it didnt make that demise inevitable.

As hgfds says, the '78 series was a put up job, with the penalty count about 30-2 in favour of the French.

The game was on its arse, with no crowds, little interest and the fact remains that RL wasn't a sport taght by PE teachers in schools. If any one factor could be attributed to the demise of French RL post war I would opine that removing it from the schools curriculum and preventing PE teachers from gaining ogvt accreditation was it.

 

[taipan]

They won a test series against Australia in 1978, the last time Australia was actually beaten in a test series. So I don't think your comment that after that 'golden era' there was no development is valid. They beat Australia in series in 51,53 and 55, pre war theyd never beaten Australia. They beat Australia again in 67 and 78 those players certainly wouldnt have been developed pre war. I think its very simplistic merely to blame the vichy regime of French rugby league demise, it certainly contributed but it wasnt the death blow and it didnt make that demise inevitable.

Anybody who playing that 78 test and has been interviewed ,described the refereeing as the most appallling they have witnessed.If you believe the result typified the strength of rugby league there ,you are either deluded or know zilch about the denial of certain rights(not taught in schools,no govt grants) for the game.
The Vichy machine lopped off the game's legs(with the tacid support of some union officials),post war governments tied the game's hands behind its back to use a description.Take whatever you want out of that comment.
No vichy! the game would have continued to boom full stop, end of story.

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

Have you hear to speak of the "Protocoles" or Gentlemen Agreements between 1971 and 1989 and between FRL and FRU ??

to do simple, the Protocoles specified that each federation, the clubs of each federation will stop to make their market in the other federation and its clubs.

When you look the French RL national teams from 1946 to 1976, How many players come from union, came in RL against big money, they are numerous and numerous and famous RU players !!
- Instead of create our own roots RL clubs preferred to buy RU players and great names in RU !!
- With the protocoles RL clubs have been obliged to create roots (teams of youngs and education in RL of the youngs) ; this gave goods or excellent results but it was too late !!!

Today, How many of the RU players entered in FRL against money are in FRL after stopping to play ? they are not very numerous !!!!, the majority of them returned to RU !!!
One of the exceptions is
- the father of the Catalan Dragons' President: José Guasch who was one of the best player of USAP -1949 to 1952- before he joined 13 Catalan untill his death
http://www.finalesrugby.com/match.asp?idmatch=60
- As in the family Guasch rugby is a game, Bernard Guasch (Catalan Dragons' President) is a former 13 Catalan (RL) and USAP (RU) and 13 Catalan + St Estève (RL) player
http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:jInKZFXfqh4J:www.usap.fr/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D35904%26view%3Dprevious%26sid%3D720e8b026125fc0988ab02abcf5471b2+jos%C3%A9+guasch+rugby&hl=fr&gl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=3

An other exception is Georges Aillières perhaps Maurice De Matos (but i don't know his present situation)


Like RU is professional since 1995 and its players are now very expensive, like RU is most interesting for young players, like no much money in FRL (no huge sponsors, no fans in the stadiums), like again small roots: the clubs purchase foreign RL players but the consequences of this is numerous bankrupcies (the next will be perhaps St gaudens)

One thing you don't know: FFR.13 and clubs manager refused between 1958 and 1960 that the games go regularely to French TV, Why the refusal ? the answer is: we will lost our fans in our stadiums (I have 2 confirmations from a friend former manager of FFR.13);
the same proposal was made by French TV to FFR, they answered YES immediately

An other negative point is the 1981 championship final: duration of the game is 4 minutes (due to a huge brawl between players), brawl in front of the French TV cameras (exceptional fact: the game was broadcasted by French TV)

Unfortunately the management of FRL has had always a short wiew (it is not the boss of the federation who directs the federation but it is the interest of the clubs). For Président Larrat it is very hard to change the spirit, the objectives.

in 1996: the creation of the Paris St Germain was a great thing but 1997 unfortunately it fell : responsible is the clubs

An other huge bad point: the lack of international games, the lack of regular and annual international games, the lack of regular WC !!! for France A, France B, France C (simular to RU 5 nations and FIRA competitions)
have look on the international games from 1945 to nowsdays, where are also Italia, Yougoslavia playing RL in the years 1950s or 1960s and playing good Amateur games

Like some old managers, I don't think that it is vichy decree, RU or De Gaulle who are fully responsibles of all these.

We haven't deducted, retained, used the lessons of October 1940: creation of his own roots and to keep, to leave quiet FRU

From Australia you have an idyllic approach

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

Taipan writing this you are false
"not taught in schools, no govt grants"
](*,) :shock:

](*,)

:shock:


Why the federation did nothing with private schools ???
When I was in Bordeaux 1966 to 1972 at the public hight school, at the university it was possible to play RL but what helps colleges, hight school, or universities received from the clubs ???

In 1971 Louis Bonnery is the 1st (if i am not false) Regional Technical Adviser -CTR-: I hold the document
Who paid the annual salary of Louis Bonnery ?, it is the French Government !!!!

1971 is also the date of the 1st Protocole (gentlemen agreement) between FFR and French Republic and former FFJ.XIII (FFR.13)

.

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

Taipan,
another point I don't agree, I may not agree in full with you:

it is not because the future professors of sports could not learn Rugby à XIII during their studies at the university to become professor of sports
that then having obtained their degrees
it was forbidden to them to teach Rugby à XIII to their pupils, collégians, lycéans, students !!


You make confusion between 2 different things quite different
. the studies to become professor of sport
and
. professor of sport making his job in schools, colléges, lycées, universities (excepted in the universities to learn only sports)

:shock:

](*,)



:shock:

 

[taipan]

Taipan writing this you are false
"not taught in schools, no govt grants"
](*,) :shock:

](*,)

:shock:


Why the federation did nothing with private schools ???
When I was in Bordeaux 1966 to 1972 at the public hight school, at the university it was possible to play RL but what helps colleges, hight school, or universities received from the clubs ???

In 1971 Louis Bonnery is the 1st (if i am not false) Regional Technical Adviser -CTR-: I hold the document
Who paid the annual salary of Louis Bonnery ?, it is the French Government !!!!

1971 is also the date of the 1st Protocole (gentlemen agreement) between FFR and French Republic and former FFJ.XIII (FFR.13)

.

1971 ! 25 years after end of the war.It should have occurred in 1946.

I am aware of the selfishness of club officals in France,just as I am aware of selfishness of club officials in Australia.Otherwise the intnl game would be much healthier than it was or is.Mais ouis Vichy wasn't the only factor,it was however a big factor,combined with inward thinking club officials,a hostile FRU at times.We have incompetent officials in Australia at times,the Super League war showed that,creating divisions and pushing some supporters to other codes.

The clubs had little or no money to develop.I am not talking about the one or two officials,I am talking grassroots.Not officially recognised for years and PE teachers not therefore allowed to teach the code in schools,is my understanding.
When did the Govt give grants to the code apart from the odd official,such as they do in Australia for development officers,tours etc ?.

 

[taipan]

Taipan,
another point I don't agree, I may not agree in full with you:

it is not because the future professors of sports could not learn Rugby à XIII during their studies at the university to become professor of sports
that then having obtained their degrees
it was forbidden to them to teach Rugby à XIII to their pupils, collégians, lycéans, students !!


You make confusion between 2 different things quite different
. the studies to become professor of sport
and
. professor of sport making his job in schools, colléges, lycées, universities (excepted in the universities to learn only sports)

:shock:

](*,)



:shock:

Non, thats not my intention.[-X
I do know that RL in France(maintenant) is gradually improving its development work.Cliff Spracklen in his Treiziste diary writes about the Mediterranee rugby league academy as a result of the Point Sud Project.Involving full time development officers , the game was introduced into Marseilles schools and into neighbouring towns like Aubune,Bandol and Istres.
There were not exactly fulltime development officers for the FRL decades ago.

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

Taipan,
why English RL go ahead now ? : because they have a CEO coming outside RL, and knowing the management of big companies

why FRU go ahead from 1946 ? : because
. FFR and numerous clubs were managed like big companies (even small clubs),
. rugby wasn't and isn't their unofficial wife that you hid !,
. rugby was and is their unofficial wife of whom they made and make presentation around them !!!, for whom they made and make their best effort for her developpement,
. FFR didn't wait the government to create its own development officers,
. a player or a former player wasn't and isn't a goods but a man, a man who was or is necessary to maintain him in RU to develop, to promote RU around him, is a man who is a friend.

Why FRL didn't go ahead from 1946 ? : because
. all the contrary of FRU was made and is made !!!!,
. when you have money you can purchase RU players,
. creation of grassroots is not interesting: take too much time, too much efforts, .....
an RL example: I have sometimes relationships with Laurent Roldos (CEO and President of the Former RL International Players National Association) and regular with Christian Sabatié (responsible for the Former RL International Players National Association around Villeneuve), you don't know how it is very hard for them to constitute their annual meeting, 85 to 90% of the former RL international players aren't interested !!!, 70 to 80 % of the former international players refuses to become member of the association

For the development via schools, colleges, lycées, universities I confirm my previous post; the problem is:
. for FFR it was and is a serious matter i.e work seriously with the respective Sport National Federation for Sport in Schools, Colléges, Lycées, Universities,
. for FFR.13 it was and is a funny matter !!, (an example: in Villeneuve, Tonneins, ... Carcassonne, ... if since more than 50 years schoolars, collegians, lyceans played RL in their schools, colléges, lycées it is only because you have teachers, sport professors who have taken or take the necessary steps inside their respective Sport National Federation for Sport in Schools, Colléges, Lycées, Universities)

An other example: when you work for a company numerous companies have their own multi-sport association which is member of 1 of the 10 National Multi-Sport Federations for Workers. These National Multi-Sport Federations for Workers have their regular and annual regional and national championships and cups; you can play HandBall (the german sport introduced in France -1941- seems with the FRL money), basket, tennis, volleyball, ...., soccer, RU.
Is FRL interested to develop RL via these National Multi-Sport Federations for Workers ??, several former club players have tried to introduce RL during 3 or 5 years (years 80s and 90s) but no help from FFR.13 and its clubs (no money and no interesting but for soccer and RU very interesting because sport workers in compagnies creates new fans and can direct their children to FFF (soccer) clubs or FFR (union) clubs)

The huge problem from 1946 is management and grassroots, it is the bankruptcy. The lessons of Oct. 1940 were and aren't used, retained !!!!

.

 

[taipan]

Taipan,
why English RL go ahead now ? : because they have a CEO coming outside RL, and knowing the management of big companies

why FRU go ahead from 1946 ? : because
. FFR and numerous clubs were managed like big companies (even small clubs),
. rugby wasn't and isn't their unofficial wife that you hid !,
. rugby was and is their unofficial wife of whom they made and make presentation around them !!!, for whom they made and make their best effort for her developpement,
. FFR didn't wait the government to create its own development officers,
. a player or a former player wasn't and isn't a goods but a man, a man who was or is necessary to maintain him in RU to develop, to promote RU around him, is a man who is a friend.

Why FRL didn't go ahead from 1946 ? : because
. all the contrary of FRU was made and is made !!!!,
. when you have money you can purchase RU players,
. creation of grassroots is not interesting: take too much time, too much efforts, .....
an RL example: I have sometimes relationships with Laurent Roldos (CEO and President of the Former RL International Players National Association) and regular with Christian Sabatié (responsible for the Former RL International Players National Association around Villeneuve), you don't know how it is very hard for them to constitute their annual meeting, 85 to 90% of the former RL international players aren't interested !!!, 70 to 80 % of the former international players refuses to become member of the association

For the development via schools, colleges, lycées, universities I confirm my previous post; the problem is:
. for FFR it was and is a serious matter i.e work seriously with the respective Sport National Federation for Sport in Schools, Colléges, Lycées, Universities,
. for FFR.13 it was and is a funny matter !!, (an example: in Villeneuve, Tonneins, ... Carcassonne, ... if since more than 50 years schoolars, collegians, lyceans played RL in their schools, colléges, lycées it is only because you have teachers, sport professors who have taken or take the necessary steps inside their respective Sport National Federation for Sport in Schools, Colléges, Lycées, Universities)

An other example: when you work for a company numerous companies have their own multi-sport association which is member of 1 of the 10 National Multi-Sport Federations for Workers. These National Multi-Sport Federations for Workers have their regular and annual regional and national championships and cups; you can play HandBall (the german sport introduced in France -1941- seems with the FRL money), basket, tennis, volleyball, ...., soccer, RU.
Is FRL interested to develop RL via these National Multi-Sport Federations for Workers ??, several former club players have tried to introduce RL during 3 or 5 years (years 80s and 90s) but no help from FFR.13 and its clubs (no money and no interesting but for soccer and RU very interesting because sport workers in compagnies creates new fans and can direct their children to FFF (soccer) clubs or FFR (union) clubs)

The huge problem from 1946 is management and grassroots, it is the bankruptcy. The lessons of Oct. 1940 were and aren't used, retained !!!!

.

My friend I agree with what you say,but you confirmed(my knowledge) that the code was bankrupt from that important year 1946 after the end of the war. At the outbreak of the war the Ligue's bank balance was believed to stand at 1,200,000 francs-approx Pounds300,000 at todays figures.The whereabouts of these funds has never been established.I have my suspicions.
Thats my argument no money,no assets.Clubs in Australia fold when they run out of money.
I understand you when former players and officals are laissez-faire when it comes to developing the game in schools and companies.
Again if you have the money you can employ development officers,if you don't not many are interested .
The only way to get companies interested is to have international matches,and get crowds-that is also a problem for the FRL.
A competitive French national team in the 2008RLWC would certainly help.

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

Taipan,
like the value of the Ff of 31 Dec. 1959 has been divided by 100 on 1 Jan. 1960
. to compare Ff year xx to Ff year yy
. to compare Ff year xx to Euros year yy or
. to compare Euros year xx to Ff year yy
you have to use this official calculator using: French ministry of finance, Banque de France, INSEE figures
http://inflation.free.fr/calcul.php
1,200,000 Ff end of 1940: 420,882 Euros end of 2005
1,200,000 Ff end of 1941: 358,341 Euros end of 2005
1,200,000 Ff end of 1944: 196,425 Euros end of 2005

(for an accountant having studied several available information or documents, the amount of the profit of the federation from 1934 to 1940 seems to be 900,000 Ff to 1,400,000 Ff)

and other huge problem if the funds weren't in an interest bearing bank account -Persuant to the French Laws-:
1,200,000 Ff end of 1940 or 1941 or 1944 or 1952 or 1959: equals 12,000 Ff or 1,829.39 Euros end of 2005 or today !



Very important: The exchange value figures are in Ff of the 1st January 1960, not in the exchange value of the years before
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livre_sterling
.


An other main question: were the managers end of 1940 and in 1941 idiotic ?, Stupid ? : I think NO


---------------------------------

For the re-installment of the federation and clubs -mid Sept to end Oct. 1944- the funds didn't fallen from the sky !. From where they came ? : Like the majority of the clubs were in union with a huge majority of their own properties -1940 to 1944-, it is from the clubs and of ?
Nothing is fully White, Nothing is fully Black, Nothing is fully Blue, Nothing is fully Red, etc. etc.
.

 

[taipan]

Taipan,
like the value of the Ff of 31 Dec. 1959 has been divided by 100 on 1 Jan. 1960
. to compare Ff year xx to Ff year yy
. to compare Ff year xx to Euros year yy or
. to compare Euros year xx to Ff year yy
you have to use this official calculator using: French ministry of finance, Banque de France, INSEE figures
http://inflation.free.fr/calcul.php
1,200,000 Ff end of 1940: 420,882 Euros end of 2005
1,200,000 Ff end of 1941: 358,341 Euros end of 2005
1,200,000 Ff end of 1944: 196,425 Euros end of 2005

(for an accountant having studied several available information or documents, the amount of the profit of the federation from 1934 to 1940 seems to be 900,000 Ff to 1,400,000 Ff)

and other huge problem if the funds weren't in an interest bearing bank account -Persuant to the French Laws-:
1,200,000 Ff end of 1940 or 1941 or 1944 or 1952 or 1959: equals 12,000 Ff or 1,829.39 Euros end of 2005 or today !



Very important: The exchange value figures are in Ff of the 1st January 1960, not in the exchange value of the years before
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livre_sterling
.


An other main question: were the managers end of 1940 and in 1941 idiotic ?, Stupid ? : I think NO


---------------------------------

For the re-installment of the federation and clubs -mid Sept to end Oct. 1944- the funds didn't fallen from the sky !. From where they came ? : Like the majority of the clubs were in union with a huge majority of their own properties -1940 to 1944-, it is from the clubs and of ?
Nothing is fully White, Nothing is fully Black, Nothing is fully Blue, Nothing is fully Red, etc. etc.
.

I understand nothing is fully black or white on the issue,however;-

1) Vichy was there making the decisions.It was the decree of dec 1941(nmbr 5285)-dissolution of de l'association dite Ligue francais de rugby a' treize-by Jerome Carcopino.
2) the FRL had funds in 1940,which would have been very useful in real money value in 1946
3)The game was popular in 1940.
4) The FRU detested rugby league.
5) the game had virtually nothing in 1946,after the war.
6)the game lost its name for decades.
7) According to the 1939 conference figures,gross receipts reached almost 3 1/2 million francs.
8)The managers at the end of 1940/41 were not stupid,they had a game which was popular with money in the bank.I never implied otherwise.
9) There were many fingers in the pie,but Vichy had a big slice.
10) And from 1940-44 rugby league was not allowed in schools during the war years as the 1940 edict allowed.
11)If a club(via the members and players) chooses to switch codes with its assets, its a matter of democratic choice.If code is ordered to disssolve by govt decree,and have its assets seized its totalitarianism.