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Johns arrested and cautioned in London

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
Danish Moo Cow said:
Roopy, you don't get it at all.

He needed help, he got sweet f**k all from the Knights.
Well - i've already said it heaps - but since yesterday i've read Dr Halpin's statement and i think he got the best 'help' that current medical knowledge could possibly provide.
His mental illness was diagnosed and treated by 'two emminent psychiatrists' and he saw a clinical psychologist for ongoing counselling.
I've spent 30 years in the industry and i don't know of anything else that could have been done.
 
Messages
16,034
Ross Cadell said:
In my time at the Knights I really only got one sit down quality conversation with Andrew and it was sharing a car to the city from Melbourne airport. A number of things came up in that chat that have a different focus today.

Andrew loves playing rugby league, he would have been just as happy playing 15 years with the Mighty Cessnock Goanna's as being "the best player in the world." He just truly loved playing the game and meeting the challenge. I think that had he been a plumber (or something like that) and played in the weekend game his life would have been perfect. The drama was he was to good to be left alone to do that.

The stress and the torment came from the demands that people like me, his management and sponsors put on him. The catch 22 is, if you are the best player in the world you get profile, if you get profile you get bucks, if you get bucks, every now and then (read constantly) you have to dance for the dollars. That is what messed with him in my opinion.

His management had an obligation to look after his financial future and they did. But that meant the club and his personal backers made ever increasing demands on his off field time to return some of the investment. Something it now appears had a bigger drain than any of us knew.

We all have our happy and not so happy Andrew stories and as a person you can take him or leave him.

The bottom line is that on the field he gave so many great joy with his abilities. He may have been a flawed person off the field but that is because his skills made us elevate him to a position he was always uncomfortable with and never aspired to as a junior footballer.

I think given these issues, he really did an amazing job to cope as long as he did no matter how he did it. How many other players have let dazzling careers fall into tatters because of the pressures and temptations of playing top flight footy.

I think that at this time we should thank him for the good times and wish him well in dealing with his demons. He wore it all to play footy in the red and blue.

Cheers

As perverse saw in the other thread yesterday I wanted Joey's head on a pike pretty much however after reading some of perverse's posts and a few other guys on here. I sat back and put myself in the situation as to how I'd react.

Quite simply the pressure John's is on would have snapped me in half! I get stressed out over things like bills and work ect.

Imagine the pressure of being the face of rugby league for the past ten years and being scrutinesed beyond believe.

Add that to Joey's competitive nature and no wonder he had so much pent up depression.

I am not excusing what he did I still think its wrong however I know do have compassion and a lot more respect for the man that he could front the country knowing the damage it would do and admit he was wrong.

Joey Johns. Immortal player and very real man.
 

antonius

Coach
Messages
10,104
I think this article suggests that it was widely known, and accepted by a lot of people, and that it seems a lot more frequent than we were led to believe. I can't believe they just let it ride along. You have to wonder, if he hadn't been caught where he would eventually have ended up. I don't think Matt Johns was exagerating when he said that he feared the phone call the other night was to tell him Joey was dead.

League giants begged Joey to quit

Roy Masters | September 1, 2007

Andrew Johns was rugby league's time bomb. Joey's decade-long drug habit alarmed teammates and officials, some of whom confronted him angrily and publicly over his cocaine- and ecstasy-addled state.
The Queensland State of Origin coach Mal Meninga and the former Broncos five-eighth Kevin Walters challenged Johns at Star City Casino after a legends match about five years ago, the two recently retired champions lacerating him over his drug use.
There was also an ugly scene during the Magic Millions on the Gold Coast in 2005 when the St George Illawarra coach Nathan Brown and his assistant coach, Steve Price, reminded Johns, who was "off his face", of his responsibilities as a role model.
When the Gold Coast incident was put to Johns's management at the time the reaction, predictably, was denial. Joey was more candid, using humour to detour the debate. "You know all that about being a role model," he told me back then. "It's just that sometimes you forget."
Defamation laws prevented these details being printed and it is only now, with Johns's frank admission of drug abuse, following pressure from his family, that the story can be told.
Aware that a partial admission would trawl up other examples of rampant drug use, which may be revealed anyway in a forthcoming biography, the three-times Dally M winner made a detailed disclosure on the Nine Network.
Wearing the uncomfortable look of a man fighting an infection that won't go away, he admitted sustained use over his stellar career.
Johns's revelation that Newcastle club officials were aware of his problem stunned rugby league circles, with the current administration of the club moving quickly to absolve themselves.
NRL clubs are obliged to conduct a minimum 70 random tests a year for illicit drugs of the type found in Johns's possession after he left The Church nightclub in London.
However, Newcastle was one of only two clubs that did not test for illicit drugs in the period.
That led to the NRL's 70-test rule. Some might suggest tight budgets drove this decision, but that is simply untrue. They did not want to catch Johns.
When he loomed as the obvious candidate to assume the role of captain of the national team, Australian Rugby League officials were reluctant to appoint him, fearing a drugs scandal would embarrass the code.
Brisbane's Gorden Tallis became captain towards the end of Johns's representative career and is rumoured to have confronted management on a tour of England, demanding action be taken over use of party drugs by some teammates.
Tallis is now a director of the NRL board, with the responsibility of enforcing a drugs code where a first positive results in a suspended fine of 5 per cent of a player's contract, and compulsory counselling. A second positive attracts a mandatory 12-match ban. The Johns revelation will fuel claims that drug use is widespread in the code.
It is probably worse in the Australian Football League, because the NRL began testing for illicit drugs almost a decade earlier, and alcohol is a more popular substitute in the less aerobically demanding game of rugby league.
Johns blames depression for his use of ecstasy, seeking an escape from his leaden, sullen lows.
But his brooding, dark days are probably as much the result of habitual use, as an excuse for taking illicit drugs.
He also admits to being a heavy drinker.
NRL officials are concerned at a binge culture in the code. At an alcohol summit nearly 10 years ago in Sydney, Newcastle's current coach, Brian Smith, probably summed it up best. "My players are as horrified to learn I had three beers a day as I am horrified to be told they drink 30 beers in one night and nothing for the rest of the week."
There will be a push for a similar drugs summit, but clubs insist their testing does not reflect epidemic use, with the Storm recording only two positives for cannabis four years ago.
However, a player's first positive is kept confidential and is known to only three club officials, who are not bound to report it to the NRL.
When the Herald raised the question of two players testing positive at a Sydney club last month, the club chairman, chief executive and doctor all said they were not required to comment.
Johns's confession was a desperate attempt to gain absolution from his adoring public, but many in the league world believe his friends at Nine were more interested in ratings than his recovery.
The revelations certainly raise more questions than they answer, particularly the link between champion players and illicit drugs.
With the AFL Brownlow medallist Ben Cousins sent to California for rehabilitation, two sublimely gifted players from a Melbourne club being treated for addiction and Johns now revealed as a long-term drug taker, are the on-field performances of these champions chemically fuelled, or are they simply born risk-takers?
Johns's revelation was an ominous soundtrack to a life that has fallen off a cliff, with his fans praying there will be no sickly thud, particularly for a man without an enemy in the world, if you overlook the demon of addiction.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
The ignorance that surrounds mental illness is very well known - but geez it can be disheartening to see.

Understanding mental illness is a big ask for people who never really see it - but when we take the finest minds in our community and put them through 15 years of study and on the job experience at the cost of around 10 million to turn them into emminent psychiatrists you would kind of hope people would give them a tiny bit of credit for knowing what they are doing - just the benefit of the doubt call maybe.
 

antonius

Coach
Messages
10,104
So are you still saying that is was ok to just let it roll along Roops? You have to question the main reason the Knights kept it quiet for so long, I mean seriously you wouldn't be considered synical if it crossed your mind that the club just saw him as a money spinner and that they had to keep him at any cost. I'm sorry I disagree with you, but no matter what his psychiatric state, nobody will convince me that letting him take Cocaine, and ecstasy was helping him.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
antonius said:
So are you still saying that is was ok to just let it roll along Roops? You have to question the main reason the Knights kept it quiet for so long, I mean seriously you wouldn't be considered synical if it crossed your mind that the club just saw him as a money spinner and that they had to keep him at any cost. I'm sorry I disagree with you, but no matter what his psychiatric state, nobody will convince me that letting him take Cocaine, and ecstasy was helping him.
If you worked in the field for a week you would see that 'common sense' solutions to mental health issues are just so much pissing into the wind.
There is no simple measure that can be taken that will lead to a quick and clean remedy - if there were - there wouldn't be a problem.
Mental health issues develop over a lifetime and are treated over a lifetime.
Johns was kept in as healthy a lifestyle as it was possible under the circumstances - a brilliant result.
Not sure about what is happening to him right now though. I know i wouldn't be leaving him on his own for the next few months if i were looking after him.
 
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206
Interesting debate there people, but I can't see the immediate connection from bipolar to drug use.
Self medication & risk taking behaviour both have been mentioned (in this forum) but for me, depression or being under pressure neither explains or excuses the drug use.

Isn't this more like any other mere mortal taking a few pingers after too many beers. As i sit here still nursing a hang over from last night, I know that people take illegal drugs for the same reason they take socially acceptable ones.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
Dread Pirate Roberts said:
Interesting debate there people, but I can't see the immediate connection from bipolar to drug use.
Self medication & risk taking behaviour both have been mentioned (in this forum) but for me, depression or being under pressure neither explains or excuses the drug use.

Isn't this more like any other mere mortal taking a few pingers after too many beers. As i sit here still nursing a hang over from last night, I know that people take illegal drugs for the same reason they take socially acceptable ones.
which would be a wonderful argument if wasn't all over the press that he is being treated for a mental illness.
 

roopy

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Messages
27,980
Dread Pirate Roberts said:
... which is a different issue from the caution for drug possession
and he is just one bloke - not one guy who uses drugs and another who suffers from a mental illness.
 

antonius

Coach
Messages
10,104
It has become apparant that this was known years ago, and no action taken despite official complaints being made to various people and bodies. I still say it's shameful that Johns and whoever else was allowed to continue playing for what appears to be selfish reasons on the part of our club, and the ARL, and NRL. I repeat I cannot see how condoning the taking of Cocaine and E is helping him or anyone else in the game, it certainly isn't helping the game. The damage this has done to the thinking of young players is irrepairable. i repeat Johns was very brave to do what he did the other night, he should've done it years ago.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
antonius said:
..... and no action taken .....
putting him in the hands of appropriate health care professionals was not just action - it was the best possible action and had the magnificent outcome of keeping him functioning at or near his best possible potential.
Again - drugs were not the problem - they were a symptom of the much greater problem.
Your 'solution' would have involved destroying the life of someone who was allowed to be great.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
I think this has been done to death now - but i'll just point out that it was revealed in the Sunday papers that Joey has been treated for bipolar disorder by Professor Gordon Parker - the head of the black dog institute and literally the guy who wrote the textbook on the subject. I doubt he sees 5 patients a year - so god knows how they got him to treat Joey.
The club got him treated by Australia's top expert and probably one of the top half dozen experts in the world - or they could have chucked it on to the NRL and had it delt with by a footy administrator who thinks 'bipolar disorder' is something to do with global warming i suppose.
As said on the footy show this morning, 15% of people with this disorder kill themselves - and i can tell you that 90% lead a bloody miserable existance. How many remain the leading person in their field in the world like Joey? - my guess would be a total of one.
 

KniGhTs BaTTLeR

Juniors
Messages
1,699
One of my workmates suffers from Bi-Polar disorder and not long ago one of her room-mates laced her medication with ecstacy and some other medication, that was in June and she has just got out of the hospital. She is still a bit funny and very depressed. It's a terrible disorder I don't know how she can cope with it. It's not as clear cut as giving the person time off and wacking them in rehab it's a bit more complicated. Like roopy said earlier there is no magic machine that causes instant rehabiltation. It's a prick of a illness and I hope he can find a way to get over it. I can't comment if the Knights did everything possible to help Joey because I don't fully understand Bipolar or depression, but Ic can't help feeling they let him down.

Bloody great footballer though.
 

Alex28

Coach
Messages
11,876
The club has absolutely let him down. They ignored what was going on because of the success he brought them. Heads need to roll within the club...
 

roopy

Referee
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27,980
Alex28 said:
The club has absolutely let him down. They ignored what was going on because of the success he brought them. Heads need to roll within the club...
Well - this thread is full of people with no idea what they are talking about and i'm begining to feel it is like talking to brick walls - but let me just try again.

Johns has been diagnosed with a major mental illness.

Drugs did not cause this - or he would be the first person in history to develop bipolar disorder from drug use if they did.

He will be on medication for this illness for the rest of his life - and the illness will slowly get worse for the rest of his life.

His medication will include a mood stabiliser that will have to be monitored with regular blood tests as it may reach toxic levels and cause him permanent neurological and hepatic damage. He will also be on an antidepressant that can cause impotence, weight gain, lethargy, loss of volition, etc etc etc.

The club doctor managed to have him treated by people who would not see you and me for all the tea in china - we would be lucky to get to see someone prof Parker taught. He was seen by two emminent psychiatrists and a clinical psychologist over many sessions. Your normal punter with the same illness would be lucky to get 15 minutes with a psychiatric registrar (trainee) for the same condition.

As to rehabilitation - the absolute ideal situation is to keep a person functioning in their normal life. If you can keep them functioning at anywhere near their pre treatment level you have done well - to keep him as best in the world - brilliant - outstanding - the club needs a medal - it is bloody close in medical terms to cureing cancer.

The club has nothing to be ashamed of - plenty to be proud of in fact.

Don't take my word for it - basically the same thing was said on the front page of the Sunday papers by professor Parker today. He is only a professor in a field which requires the finest minds in our community to study for 15 years before they can even hang out a shingle, and he is head of the Black Dog Institute which is the largest psychiatric research institute in the country and one of the leading research groups into depression in the world.

Quite frankly - those still prepared to declare that the best qualified person in the country is wrong because their own profound ignorance of the subject leads them to another conclusion should really pause for a few seconds to take stock of themselves.,
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
Not the article from the front of today's paper - but good enough.


THE psychiatrist treating Andrew Johns last night revealed how the former league star has plummeted into the depths of despair as he battles to bring his bipolar disorder under control.

Professor Gordon Parker confirmed Johns was in "a very bad state'', with friends and family extremely worried about his well-being.

In an exclusive interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Professor Parker told how Johns had been unable to take his bipolar medication for six days in London after his luggage containing the drugs was lost in transit.

This triggered a manic "high'' episode that resulted in Johns' ill-fated alcohol binge and subsequent arrest for possession of an ecstasy tablet, he said.

"He is in a very bad state now,'' Professor Parker said. "People around him are worried.

"But Andrew has told me today the fact that he has elected to talk about his bipolar disorder with the support of his partner Cathrine (Mahoney) and his manager (John Fordham) is a big relief.''

Bipolar disorder is a psychiatric condition that causes sufferers to swing from periods of low depression to high manias, when they feel invincible.

During depressions, the suicide risk is high, with as many as 15 per cent of sufferers taking their own lives.

Johns was diagnosed more than three years ago and has been taking a combination of mood stabilisers and tranquillisers.

League officials were informed by letter of his condition and prescription, he said.

Professor Parker, executive director of the world-acclaimed Black Dog Institute, said it was common for bipolar to take drugs and alcohol during "highs''.

"When people with bipolar disorder stop taking their medication, they are much more likely to go through an episode,'' Professor Parker said.

"When Andrew arrived at Heathrow, his luggage was missing and it had his medication in it,'' he said.

"So he went without it for six days, which is like a diabetic going without their medication.''

Alcoholism is between three and six times more common in people with bipolar, as their metabolism changes during high periods, which allows them to consume vast quantities, he said.
Drinking is often used as a crutch to cope with life during depressed periods too, he said.

"This (Johns' drug and alcohol use) is par for the course for people with bipolar,'' Professor Parker said.

"When they have highs, they become more compulsive, more reckless and all sorts of things can happen, including drugs and alcohol.

"They feel invincible and want to do anything to continue that feeling. But the downside is that they have to come down; then they crash and that's when the suicide risk is high.''

Johns will be advised to avoid all alcohol, drugs and stimulant to keep his bipolar disorder under control in the future, he said.

Even coffee and energy drinks have been found to trigger manic periods in some patients.

Ironically, Johns' high or manic periods are likely to have helped his performance on the pitch at times - although this would have been counteracted by poorer playing during low times.

"He (Johns) has described how when he was high, his reflexes were better than usual and he could see gaps in the field that he would not be able to see when he was not high - but I cannot say that explains his (career) brilliance,'' Professor Parker said.

"When he was down, his reflexes were dulled, his concentration was down and he would have been more likely to get hurt.''

Of Johns' prognosis, Professor Parker said: "It's not going to be easy, it's going to be extremely difficult.''

Professor Parker believes bipolar disorder may be more common in rugby league than in the general population, as resilience is common for people with the condition.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22346976-5006010,00.html
 

Alex28

Coach
Messages
11,876
Roopy - if the club knew the guy was doing an illegal substance - in relation to both government law and within the game of NRL - and did nothing about it on the basis of the consequences in relation to the club - then yes they did the wrong thing by him. Do not allow everyone who let him get to this position to hide behind his illness.

No one is doubting the guy has an illness...however to justify everything that has happened because of the illness is totally wrong. The club should be ashamed of letting him go on like this - if he was ill they should have given him every legitimate method to allow him to get his condition under control (if that is all possible), however they did not do that. They allowed him to do what he wanted because they club needed him more than he needed the club.

His doctor should have advised the club to give him time away from the club. The club should have not ignored the drug issue when they heard about it. The coach should have done something about it when he knew about it (and Hagan knew about it). The players should have kept a better eye out for him. His family should have confronted him earlier.

Plenty of people let him down - but most of all he let himself down the worst.
 

Alex28

Coach
Messages
11,876
And what do you know...here's Hages saying that they ignored his condition because of what he brought to the club...

http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/news/joey-status-blinded-club/2007/09/02/1188671796663.html

Joey status 'blinded club'
Andrew Webster | September 3, 2007

ANDREW Johns's standing as the perhaps the game's greatest player contributed to his slide into depression and illicit drug use, his former Knights coach, Michael Hagan, believes.

Hagan said he did not know his captain in the 2001 grand final victory over the club he now coaches, Parramatta, had dabbled in recreational drugs.

But he admitted he had spoken to Johns about alcoholism and his mental illness, which was revealed yesterday as bipolar disorder.

In Newcastle, Johns was considered a law unto himself, and Hagan said his status meant it was harder to rein in the champion halfback and respond to rumours about his drug use.

"I think we all could have done more, there's no question about that," Hagan said. "But you're also talking about someone with his sort of profile, his reputation and standing in the game.

"You'd be naive to say you didn't want Andrew Johns playing footy and doing what he did for Newcastle for 10 years. The town and team ran off the back of him for that long."

Asked whether the club had failed in trying to discipline him and if there had been double standards for Johns, Hagan said: "There had been plenty of attempts, and that's something the club can certainly review.

"You're probably right. We've seen other examples before. His profile and standing in the game … this is one of the biggest stories in the game for some time. In the end, you can't be with them 24-7, either."

In his public confession on The Footy Show last Thursday night, Johns said the Newcastle club had "probably" known about his dalliances with drugs.

So far, no past or present officials or coaches have said they did.

"There had been no evidence to me about him taking drugs," Hagan said. "He was one of the better trainers in the club. There is no question … that alcohol was certainly a big issue for Andrew. That was always known - he's depended on alcohol. That's the first thing he really needs to get under control."

After his side's loss to Parramatta yesterday, Brisbane coach Wayne Bennett lashed out at sections of the media after a report linked injured Broncos captain Darren Lockyer to illicit drug use because Lockyer had been in contact with Johns and former teammate Wendell Sailor, who is serving a two-year ban for testing positive to cocaine. Lockyer later rejected the report.

But Bennett said he had faith in the ability of the NRL's two-strikes policy, which was implemented from August 1, to weed out drug users.

"The NRL, like a lot of organisations, are probably too slow to move," Bennett said. "It takes time. But they've done it. It's moving and it's happening. That's all we have to do. I have faith in the NRL and the clubs to solve the problem.

"Players don't want it in their club [drugs]. Players don't want it. Clubs don't want it. What's happening where you work? Do you have that policy where you're being drug tested seven days a week, 24 hours a day?

"What's in the past is in the past. Joey is an ex-player …"

Asked whether he had taken up the concerns of former Broncos captain Gorden Tallis about drug use on the 2000 World Cup tour, Bennett said curtly: "If I had a conversation with Gorden Tallis, that's between him and me. I don't intend to make them public."

Rugby League Players' Association president Simon Woolford foreshadowed a post-season forum between his organisation and the NRL to decide on a direction - and he gave partial backing to the idea of an amnesty for players willing to reveal the extent of their problem.

I love how everyone within the club is denying all knowledge of him doing drugs. What bulls***. Time for someone to stand up and take some ownership for this.
 
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