Johns arrested and cautioned in London

[macavity]

hindsight is a beautiful thing, Alex.

im with Roopy on this - they handled it quite well given the circumstances. Lets not forget what has happened here - the man didn't kill someone, didn't kill himself, didn't take roids or play high. He was caught with a pill.

I say this as a man with a brother currently in James Fletcher (look after him Roops, he is in the one in town) due to long-time drug abuse and bi-polar disorder, and a mate on a GBB due to the same thing. I have an idea what goes on.


As for Hagan - imagine my surprise that the jilted coach takes pot-shots at the club.

I think the Doctor knew, and probably a few team-mates. Officials/Coaches may have seen the signs but not recognised them. Or they may have known. But unless he tests positive, what are they going to do - stand down the world's best for behavioural problems? I think you are being a bit unrealistic here Alex.

 

[Johns Magic]

Roopy - if the club knew the guy was doing an illegal substance - in relation to both government law and within the game of NRL - and did nothing about it on the basis of the consequences in relation to the club - then yes they did the wrong thing by him. Do not allow everyone who let him get to this position to hide behind his illness.

No one is doubting the guy has an illness...however to justify everything that has happened because of the illness is totally wrong. The club should be ashamed of letting him go on like this - if he was ill they should have given him every legitimate method to allow him to get his condition under control (if that is all possible), however they did not do that. They allowed him to do what he wanted because they club needed him more than he needed the club.

His doctor should have advised the club to give him time away from the club. The club should have not ignored the drug issue when they heard about it. The coach should have done something about it when he knew about it (and Hagan knew about it). The players should have kept a better eye out for him. His family should have confronted him earlier.

Plenty of people let him down - but most of all he let himself down the worst.

It's common knowledge that Joey loved playing league more than anything else in the world.

Taking league (and his friends) away from him would only depress him further. In conjunction with announcing his alcohol, drug and depression problem to the world, surely this would have destroyed him inside.

Rugby league and his teammates brought happiness into Johns' otherwise sad life.

How would taking these things away from him all of a sudden cure him of bipolar disorder?

 

[roopy]

Roopy - if the club knew the guy was doing an illegal substance - in relation to both government law and within the game of NRL - and did nothing about it on the basis of the consequences in relation to the club - then yes they did the wrong thing by him. Do not allow everyone who let him get to this position to hide behind his illness.

No one is doubting the guy has an illness...however to justify everything that has happened because of the illness is totally wrong. The club should be ashamed of letting him go on like this - if he was ill they should have given him every legitimate method to allow him to get his condition under control (if that is all possible), however they did not do that. They allowed him to do what he wanted because they club needed him more than he needed the club.

His doctor should have advised the club to give him time away from the club. The club should have not ignored the drug issue when they heard about it. The coach should have done something about it when he knew about it (and Hagan knew about it). The players should have kept a better eye out for him. His family should have confronted him earlier.

Plenty of people let him down - but most of all he let himself down the worst.

Oh my god - sometimes i think mental health education is making some inroads - and then there are times like this.

 

[Johns Magic]

:lol:

 

[Nuffy]

I'm going to add my 2 cents worth.

I've seen first hand the devastating effect mental illness can have on a family and the long road that must be travelled to get well again and how even then "wellness" is a transient state which requires eternal vigilance and maintenance.

I think many are missing the point, Joey's drug taking was a result of the mental illness, its difficult to determine whether he could be actually held responsible for this type of action on the basis of his condition.

Secondly, the club is in difficult position, its alright to for the club doctor to say he "hinted" to the club about Joey, but the reality is that without hard evidence such as a failed drug test, they can't act independantly.

Plus cutting the bloke off from football would more than likely have created more problems for him not less. Football was his anchor, he needed it more than anything so it just may have prevented bigger problems by letting him play.

This is not the case of a larrikin taking drugs, the bloke has a confirmed serious mental condition, one in which his actions can't automatically be accounted for in "normal" parameters.

I believe we need to suspend the "witch" hunt because this is not a simple situation and one that needs to be handled with great care, more for the sake of Joey than anything else.

I hope that the club steps in to assist the bloke in any capacity they can, I would like him to be much more involved in the coaching side of the club because I think now more than ever, he needs an anchor as well as familiar surroundings, to keep him out of harms way.

 

[roopy]

I'm going to add my 2 cents worth.

I've seen first hand the devastating effect mental illness can have on a family and the long road that must be travelled to get well again and how even then "wellness" is a transient state which requires eternal vigilance and maintenance.

I think many are missing the point, Joey's drug taking was a result of the mental illness, its difficult to determine whether he could be actually held responsible for this type of action on the basis of his condition.

Secondly, the club is in difficult position, its alright to for the club doctor to say he "hinted" to the club about Joey, but the reality is that without hard evidence such as a failed drug test, they can't act independantly.

Plus cutting the bloke off from football would more than likely have created more problems for him not less. Football was his anchor, he needed it more than anything so it just may have prevented bigger problems by letting him play.

This is not the case of a larrikin taking drugs, the bloke has a confirmed serious mental condition, one in which his actions can't automatically be accounted for in "normal" parameters.

I believe we need to suspend the "witch" hunt because this is not a simple situation and one that needs to be handled with great care, more for the sake of Joey than anything else.

I hope that the club steps in to assist the bloke in any capacity they can, I would like him to be much more involved in the coaching side of the club because I think now more than ever, he needs an anchor as well as familiar surroundings, to keep him out of harms way.

Very well said - and can i add that the real dark times for Joey might have started last week - or - if a lot of people stick by him and give him the support he needs - maybe he can get on top of things.

 

[otori]

I just feel sorry for Tallis after coming out and doing the right thing and then getting shunted. I'm not trying to justify Johns or not because frankly I don't think I have the right to judge his actions but Gordy did the right thing. ARL looks stupid now for not listening to him.

 

[roopy]

I just feel sorry for Tallis after coming out and doing the right thing and then getting shunted. I'm not trying to justify Johns or not because frankly I don't think I have the right to judge his actions but Gordy did the right thing. ARL looks stupid now for not listening to him.

We'll probably never know what football officials did or did not do in responce to what Tallis had to say.
We know they didn't go for mass sackings and public humiliation - but we will never know if some players did not get a quiet word and have their cards marked 'not for selection' for a year or two. We don't know if club officials were informed on the quiet and players lost contracts or had counselling offered etc.

 

[otori]

We'll probably never know what football officials did or did not do in responce to what Tallis had to say.
We know they didn't go for mass sackings and public humiliation - but we will never know if some players did not get a quiet word and have their cards marked 'not for selection' for a year or two. We don't know if club officials were informed on the quiet and players lost contracts or had counselling offered etc.

Yeah I didn't mean that they didn't respond to him but the fact that what he said sort of got ignored. Little to no investigations happened to obtain proof which I think reflects on how much respect the ARL was paying to Tallis (none). He was really proud of his Australian jersey and he wanted to maintain its integrity regardless of anything else which is a testament to his character.

 

[Alex28]

I think we are allowing one issue to cloud judgement over the other - the guy was using an illegal substance for "his entire career" and it appears that the club, the ARL and the NRL were in some forms aware of what he was doing (or was made aware of what he was doing) and did nothing about it. No one stepped in and stopped what was going on because it wasn't good for the club or the game that he could potentially be out of it for some sort of period. Be damned for the state of a human being here…

I'm not commenting on bi-polar or depression - I don't know enough about it and I feel for him as a human being through such a condition and having to cope with it. I would dare say that dealing with it through excessive drinking and taking drugs such as ecstacy are not sound ways of dealing with it and if someone knew this was going on within the club (or the governing body) then it is my opinion that something should have been done - for his sake, not the clubs, and not the reputation of the game.

At the end of the day, he was taking an illegal substance with the knowledge of people inside the club and the governing body of the game. I'm not talking about why he turned to drugs, or his condition. I'm talking about the support the club has given him - which it seems is not much. He was our cash cow and while he was performing and was marketable the club didn't want to rock the boat. That is the sad thing and that is what has given me the s**** with the club in this regard.

Oh…and Roopy - given the way you have carried on in the past in regards to the way people talk to others on the forum, you are being a tad hypocritical and I would have expected better than the cheap shot you dealt out before. You probably need to stop talking down to people that don't agree with you and get yourself an open mind in regards to the many many issues that are involved here, not just the one you are focused on.

 

[roopy]

The whole drugs issue is a minor symptom of a massive problem.
From a purely health point of view it is no more important than his drinking habits - maybe less important because he obviously did far more drinking.

Focusing on drugs is like dealing with a patient with a brain tumor by giving him aspirin for a headache.

 

[cram]

Roopy, I agree with most of what you say on this subject due to my experience both personal and professional.

I think what Alex is saying here, and correct me if I am wrong, is that that despite the fact that he was being treated he was allowed to continue playing football when they knew or had a very good idea that he was using the substances. I guess the question is should he have been pulled out of football and allowed to recover away from the game. Not necessarily full time rehab, because I am yet to be convinced of the merits of these programs but at least keeping him off the field.

If they allowed him to continue along abusing substances when they know that it is illegal in the game then they are complicit in their actions on him breaking the rules.

Anyway that is my take on what Alex is saying.

 

[macavity]

If they allowed him to continue along abusing substances when they know that it is illegal in the game then they are complicit in their actions on him breaking the rules.

problem with that theory is that he passed every test.

if they pulled him out of the game without concrete evidence of drug taking they would be crucified, and rightly so.

 

[AdamT]

I think we are allowing one issue to cloud judgement over the other - the guy was using an illegal substance for "his entire career" and it appears that the club, the ARL and the NRL were in some forms aware of what he was doing (or was made aware of what he was doing) and did nothing about it.

At the end of the day, he was taking an illegal substance with the knowledge of people inside the club and the governing body of the game. He was our cash cow and while he was performing and was marketable the club didn't want to rock the boat. That is the sad thing and that is what has given me the s**** with the club in this regard.

Oh…and Roopy - given the way you have carried on in the past in regards to the way people talk to others on the forum, you are being a tad hypocritical and I would have expected better than the cheap shot you dealt out before. You probably need to stop talking down to people that don't agree with you and get yourself an open mind in regards to the many many issues that are involved here, not just the one you are focused on.

Alex you are spot on. Joey is human and as humans we all make mistakes. What is worse than his mistakes is the administrators who chose to bury their heds in the sand - all becuase the media didnt beat it up. Gallop is a classic at this hypocrisy and so too is our Board of old farts that neeed to be upgraded with the time. They should resign in shame - Gallop first.

As for Roopy - he never used to be like that ion the old Knights forum. Maybe he is just getting crankier as he gets older.

 

[perverse]

problem with that theory is that he passed every test.

if they pulled him out of the game without concrete evidence of drug taking they would be crucified, and rightly so.

problem with that theory is that we trust that he passed every test.

i'm not sure i buy it.. but i'm just speculating at this stage.. i've heard a few whispers - but nothing more than conjecture and hearsay. i really do feel that this one goes all the way to the top.

 

[Nuffy]

I'm assuming that the tests were conducted by ASDA which means a serious coverup, the likes of which Australia sport has never seen.

Thats quite the allegation!

 

[AdamT]

I'm going to add my 2 cents worth.

I've seen first hand the devastating effect mental illness can have on a family and the long road that must be travelled to get well again and how even then "wellness" is a transient state which requires eternal vigilance and maintenance.

I think many are missing the point, Joey's drug taking was a result of the mental illness, its difficult to determine whether he could be actually held responsible for this type of action on the basis of his condition.

Secondly, the club is in difficult position, its alright to for the club doctor to say he "hinted" to the club about Joey, but the reality is that without hard evidence such as a failed drug test, they can't act independantly.

Plus cutting the bloke off from football would more than likely have created more problems for him not less. Football was his anchor, he needed it more than anything so it just may have prevented bigger problems by letting him play.

This is not the case of a larrikin taking drugs, the bloke has a confirmed serious mental condition, one in which his actions can't automatically be accounted for in "normal" parameters.

I believe we need to suspend the "witch" hunt because this is not a simple situation and one that needs to be handled with great care, more for the sake of Joey than anything else.

I hope that the club steps in to assist the bloke in any capacity they can, I would like him to be much more involved in the coaching side of the club because I think now more than ever, he needs an anchor as well as familiar surroundings, to keep him out of harms way.

Nuffy that was all well said......... except..... when you say .....Joey's drug taking was a result of the mental illness?

This is crap. Not everyone with depression and bi-polar use Ecsatcy. In fact as the Professors have confirmed - alcohol in particular - is one fo the worst things for depressiona dn I am sure Ecstacy isnt too close behind it.

Most people suffering this illness use properly medicated drugs. Through his own admission he confirmed that when he was medicated he wouldnt get the highs and lows. Which is correct. He CRAVED the Highs so its a drug addiction more than a MEDICAL CONDITION. For f's fake.. when are individuals going to become accountable for their own actions? Its great Joey Finally came clean and 2nd time round after his first feeble excuse of the unknown person in the jeans pocket.

As a wealthy superstar he has access to the very best medical care - a luxury not afforded to many suffers of his illness who have to fork out $180 an hour for a specialist and are lucky to get 60% back from Medicare. So lets stop pitying the guy and lets start finding out how the hell so many people in the Club and close to him could have been so stupid as to have not seen this happening - or even worse as his own borther admittted and because others saw him as being the cash cow - nobody wanted to steo in and help him in case the rocked the boat or killed off the golden goose.

Like Nuffy I am qualified to speak on this subject with many years of dealing first hand with such illness.Its not something you hide behind as Joey is and has been.

 

[Baron Vo Mandor]

At the end of the day he should not have been playing he was breaking numerous government and laws of league itself by playing..... Disgraceful.

I like others am flabbergasted that people could condone the use of illegal substances. It blows my mind.

A very cynical part of me finds it extremely convenient that his mental disorder has been disagnosed @ the same time.

Whole thing smells like a 3 week old dead pig.

 

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

...... Professor Parker: Alcoholism is between three and six times more common in people with bipolar, as their metabolism changes during high periods, which allows them to consume vast quantities, he said.
Drinking is often used as a crutch to cope with life during depressed periods too, he said.

"This (Johns' drug and alcohol use) is par for the course for people with bipolar,'' Professor Parker said.

"When they have highs, they become more compulsive, more reckless and all sorts of things can happen, including drugs and alcohol.

"They feel invincible and want to do anything to continue that feeling. But the downside is that they have to come down; then they crash and that's when the suicide risk is high.''

Johns will be advised to avoid all alcohol, drugs and stimulant to keep his bipolar disorder under control in the future, he said.

Even coffee and energy drinks have been found to trigger manic periods in some patients.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22346976-5006010,00.html

I stand corrected.

 

[Alex28]

Roopy, I agree with most of what you say on this subject due to my experience both personal and professional.

I think what Alex is saying here, and correct me if I am wrong, is that that despite the fact that he was being treated he was allowed to continue playing football when they knew or had a very good idea that he was using the substances. I guess the question is should he have been pulled out of football and allowed to recover away from the game. Not necessarily full time rehab, because I am yet to be convinced of the merits of these programs but at least keeping him off the field.

If they allowed him to continue along abusing substances when they know that it is illegal in the game then they are complicit in their actions on him breaking the rules.

Anyway that is my take on what Alex is saying.

Thanks Cram - that was really what I was saying however it was all being clouded by the mental condition discussion.

I'm not doubting his condition and I am not doubting the reasons why he felt the need to turn to drugs. I am suggesting that if people knew there were problems - not just drugs but also alcoholism as well - and they knew he wasn't dealing with things properly more should have been done to look after his welfare. The club has a duty of care to look after the players and it doesn't matter that it is your key player - the onus was on the club to look him.

I don't see Hagan's comments as a sledge at the club - I see it as an admission that he had very few options but to keep playing him no matter what his mental state was. The team had no other options for playmaking, the club needed him for marketing and publicity. It shows how poorly the likes of Hagan, Sargeant, et al managed the team during the Joey era.

Even his management right to the end didn't do things for his own sake - Fordham was apparently asking Matt and Andrew not to do the interview because his book would suffer for it.

The people looking after him have been pretty ordinary in my view. There is more to life than footy and cash, however those around him seem to have put that first in front of his mental state and welfare.