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Lockyer Lovefest

THE CHAMP

THE CHAMP

First Grade
Messages
8,359
Joker's Wild said:
At the risk of furthering the Joey v Heather debate

- Joey proved that halfbacks didnt have to be speed bumps in defence. Any forward that ran at Joey new about it.
- He brought the "banana kick" into the game. Noone before him could use it with such potency close to the line.
- The 40/20 was arguably brought in to exploit the deep corner kicking Joey was so good at
- Joey played both in the backs and the forwards at rep level

Suggesting he had little impact on the role of a halfback is pretty ignorant champ

Edit: Alfie, as great as he was, was a little trip merchant in defence. Suggesting the rule changes made to stop him from doing this as a positive is ludicrous.
Click to expand...


I see your point but no its wrong.
 
S

SwampyMarc

Juniors
Messages
2,088
i think both are very good players, but Lockyer has been blessed with playing alongside champion players at the broncos almost all of his career. The same can't be said of Joey, hence why i lean towards Joey being the better player in that he acheived his greatness without the same liberties that Lockyer had at his disposal.
 
THE CHAMP

THE CHAMP

First Grade
Messages
8,359
Yeah you maybe right. Johns pretty much won everything for Newcastle all by himself.They had no talented players at all. NOT! Idiot.
 
gUt

gUt

Coach
Messages
16,935
Joker's Wild said:
At the risk of furthering the Joey v Heather debate

- Joey proved that halfbacks didnt have to be speed bumps in defence. Any forward that ran at Joey new about it.
- He brought the "banana kick" into the game. Noone before him could use it with such potency close to the line.
- The 40/20 was arguably brought in to exploit the deep corner kicking Joey was so good at
- Joey played both in the backs and the forwards at rep level

Suggesting he had little impact on the role of a halfback is pretty ignorant champ

Edit: Alfie, as great as he was, was a little trip merchant in defence. Suggesting the rule changes made to stop him from doing this as a positive is ludicrous.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it was a good move or a bad move to change the tackling rule. The fact is his tackling technique was legal when he developed it but the rule was changed to specifically outlaw it, because of him and no one else.

As for your other points about Joey, those are all indicators of the truly great player he was but they don't equate to revolutionizing halfback play. It's like saying Usain Bolt revolutionizes sprinting because he is the fastest at it or that Lance Armstrong revolutionized Le Tour because he won a lot of them. I don't believe that's why they brought in the 40/20 either, even if he was the best at exploiting the rule.

On the other hand, Lockyer changed what coaches expected from their fullbacks. No longer were excellent hands and fast feet enough, now fullbacks need to bring something else to the table, be it a kicking game, a read in attack, a passing game... they need to act as a second 5/8 since Locky.
 
Rod

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,771
So what we are saying is that revolutionize doesn't necessarily mean good. After all the Storm revolutionized the ruck with all their legal and illegal methods.

As for Johns, I would argue that his attacking kicking game revolutionized halfback play. Banana kicks, aiming the ball back in towards the posts off the inside and outside of the boot, putting a kick in from 30m or 40m out and having it pull up before the dead ball etc. Guys had done this before but not with the consistency of Johns. Those, along with the 40/20 once that rule came in, forced defending teams to change the way they defended kicks and the way they structured their defensive line.
 
Big Pete

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,135
I don't think Lockyer revolutionized the game per say, hell, there was a player called Julian O'Neil who played a very similar role to Lockyer. Had a lot of talent too, just didn't know how to behave.

I think it's fair to say it's going to be awhile until we see another prolific career like Lockyer's.
 
gUt

gUt

Coach
Messages
16,935
Big Pete said:
I don't think Lockyer revolutionized the game per say, hell, there was a player called Julian O'Neil who played a very similar role to Lockyer. Had a lot of talent too, just didn't know how to behave.

I think it's fair to say it's going to be awhile until we see another prolific career like Lockyer's.
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I am just going by what the likes of Bennett and Sticky and Gould - and Johns - have said about his fullback play.
 
Joker's Wild

Joker's Wild

Coach
Messages
17,894
gUt said:
I'm not saying it was a good move or a bad move to change the tackling rule. The fact is his tackling technique was legal when he developed it but the rule was changed to specifically outlaw it, because of him and no one else.

As for your other points about Joey, those are all indicators of the truly great player he was but they don't equate to revolutionizing halfback play. It's like saying Usain Bolt revolutionizes sprinting because he is the fastest at it or that Lance Armstrong revolutionized Le Tour because he won a lot of them. I don't believe that's why they brought in the 40/20 either, even if he was the best at exploiting the rule.

On the other hand, Lockyer changed what coaches expected from their fullbacks. No longer were excellent hands and fast feet enough, now fullbacks need to bring something else to the table, be it a kicking game, a read in attack, a passing game... they need to act as a second 5/8 since Locky.
Click to expand...

You mean to tell me that halfbacks are the same and play the same both before and after Joey played? Comon mate, you wont be taking anything away from Darren by admitting Joey had his fair share of influence on the game
 
Big Pete

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,135
Lockyer may have made it famous gUt and been the best exponent of it but I don't think he revolutionzed fullback play. I mean, the likes of Churchill were playmaking fullbacks and I'd say by the time O'Neil came in there was an emergence of that type of player (Walker etc.).

I think if anything, Hunt revolutionized fullback play more. Okay, credit really should go to Bennett as you'd imagine it was his play, but that third-man play that he mastered is now a basic pre-requisite of any modern fullback and players (Slater, Stewart, Hoffman etc.) have had to adjust their game accordingly.

By the same token, I think a lot of what you listed JW had been introduced earlier, mainly through Lewis and Stuart.
 
gUt

gUt

Coach
Messages
16,935
I'm not denying that at all. I'm saying that Joey's tackling skills did not change whether other halfbacks can tackle, nor did the use of his banana kick change whether the banana kick is regarded as the "go-to" kick by other halfbacks, just because it was for him. Mullen is the only one I can think of who regularly uses it, thanks to Joey's personal involvement with him.

He definitely lifted the bar for halfback play and has given fans and players someone to measure the skill of any other halfback against, because he was the best. That doesn't mean he "revolutionized" the role of halfback. Pre-Joey and post-Joey, halfbacks feed the scrum, organise the forwards, steer their side around, and lay on tries for others etc. Joey the individual brought a lot more to the table in his personal game but it doesn't mean that other halfbacks have to be Joey or do what Joey did (as much as they'd like to).

Johns influenced every game he played in for the betterment of his team. I don't believe he influenced the sport of rugby league in the same way as Lockyer did for fullbacks. That's not the same as saying Lockyer was an individually "better" player than Johns.
 
Joker's Wild

Joker's Wild

Coach
Messages
17,894
Big Pete said:
By the same token, I think a lot of what you listed JW had been introduced earlier, mainly through Lewis and Stuart.
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Yep thats true and as you've pointed out, fullbacks were acting as extra playmakers long before Locky came into FG too

Its rare for a player in the modern era to actually bring anything new into the game rather than taking existing concepts and doing them better.
 
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