McGregor Appointed Full Time

[giboz71]

****

 

[TruSaint]

Saints are building nicely even Phil Gould can see this. The Dragons backline is looking better than most teams it is the forwards that need a little bit of work and in the offseason hopefully Saints will work on this and come out better in 2015. Peter Mata'utai is a gun player and I hope they hold onto this guy. Runciman will also come good so they have some great back up when Dylan Farrell is back.

If they can snag Kasiano and Leahroyd Lars then Saints will do well. Those 2 will make a huge difference to the pack.

Beale / Farrell / Mata... / Runciman all vying for centres.
Thats assuming Duges is at FB, if not swap Duges for Beale.

I think Beale, Dugan, Farrell are all on good coin.
Mata and Runci not sure.

I d believe Runciman signed a new contract ? Tough decision.

 

[rainman44]

Saints are building nicely even Phil Gould can see this. The Dragons backline is looking better than most teams it is the forwards that need a little bit of work and in the offseason hopefully Saints will work on this and come out better in 2015. Peter Mata'utai is a gun player and I hope they hold onto this guy. Runciman will also come good so they have some great back up when Dylan Farrell is back.

If they can snag Kasiano and Leahroyd Lars then Saints will do well. Those 2 will make a huge difference to the pack.

Leahroyd Lars has signed with the storm

 

[giboz71]

I don't think it takes time to build and succeed. Many teams have turned it around in 1 season.

Roosters went from last in 2009 to second in 2010,

Doggies went from last to second on the ladder in 2009.

penrith won it all in 2003 after finishing 12th the season before.

Don't believe this BS that you get fed about a re-building phase mate...A smart team spends the money wisely and rebuilds in a year

Sure if you can rebuild in a year, thats great. But you've come up with 3 examples in 12 years and only 1 of those examples won a comp.

Do you really think we can win the comp next year? A smart management would probably recognise we can't but we should put the pieces in place for a full tilt in 2016.

 

[Mr Red]

I don't think it takes time to build and succeed. Many teams have turned it around in 1 season.

Roosters went from last in 2009 to second in 2010,

Doggies went from last to second on the ladder in 2009.

penrith won it all in 2003 after finishing 12th the season before.

Don't believe this BS that you get fed about a re-building phase mate...A smart team spends the money wisely and rebuilds in a year

Agree
The salary cap ensures rebuilding is a thing of the past.. Each year good players become available due to salary cap pressures.

 

[Jubileeboy]

Sorry...I don't agree in entirety. Whilst players might become available due to salary cap pressures, many clubs have already spent their salary cap on their squad of 25 or to simplify, have spent their cap money.
After the 2010 GF, we were under pressure to offload players as some had been offered more to go elsewhere. We couldn't compete and favourite sons went elsewhere. This year has been a perfect example of us having to offload Williams to try clear some money for Marshall. Otherwise we couldn't have grabbed him. We couldn't have got Widdop and kept Soward. We would be under pressure to offload a couple of high paid plodders for next year if we want a couple of new forwards but the trick is to produce your own at a reduced rate...before they are thrown big coin by others. You just can't have 17 blokes on $400k. For every Cameron King or Jack Bird, there are 5 or more Ah Mau's or Harrison's but the reality is you need both types. It's all good and well for these guys to want $700k or $300k plus in the case of some youngsters but how does that effect the balance of your squad? Something has to give.......not being argumentative but it's a bloody hard juggling act to try get it right every year and most clubs struggle with it.

 

[Mr Red]

Sorry...I don't agree in entirety. Whilst players might become available due to salary cap pressures, many clubs have already spent their salary cap on their squad of 25 or to simplify, have spent their cap money.
After the 2010 GF, we were under pressure to offload players as some had been offered more to go elsewhere. We couldn't compete and favourite sons went elsewhere. This year has been a perfect example of us having to offload Williams to try clear some money for Marshall. Otherwise we couldn't have grabbed him. We couldn't have got Widdop and kept Soward. We would be under pressure to offload a couple of high paid plodders for next year if we want a couple of new forwards but the trick is to produce your own at a reduced rate...before they are thrown big coin by others. You just can't have 17 blokes on $400k. For every Cameron King or Jack Bird, there are 5 or more Ah Mau's or Harrison's but the reality is you need both types. It's all good and well for these guys to want $700k or $300k plus in the case of some youngsters but how does that effect the balance of your squad? Something has to give.......not being argumentative but it's a bloody hard juggling act to try get it right every year and most clubs struggle with it.

you heard of back ended contracts right? exactly what we did to get Gasnier back on deck without having to release any players.
players can always fit under salary caps. there are deals now days for $1, and then back ended over the later years..
Sam williams was in no way released for Marshall, they simply didnt want Williams.
Soward left due to personal issues with the coach - it was in no way related to salary cap. and in actually fact we could have kept him and also widdop.
and you will always find that when you have a successful team and win a comp those players automatically increase in value, resulting in a club unable to keep them all under the salary cap , hence my point regarding the salary cap always making players available.

 

[jenninga]

Beale / Farrell / Mata... / Runciman all vying for centres.
Thats assuming Duges is at FB, if not swap Duges for Beale.

I think Beale, Dugan, Farrell are all on good coin.
Mata and Runci not sure.

I d believe Runciman signed a new contract ? Tough decision.

Beale,Runciman and Farrell are not the answers for our centre position.They are not hard aggressive runners,look at centres in the NRL and like our forwards we lack firepower there.
This is why Dugan was put there.

 

[giboz71]

Yes, the salary cap allows teams to recruit good players in any given year, but 2-3 top players will not win you a comp unless you have help. There are 25 players in a squad and each plays a role. Not all of the them can be on 700k plus.

Take the Roosters last year. Sure, they got Williams, Maloney and Jennings, but they would not have won without their core group of vetrerans who had been playing together for a number of years....Pearce, Friend, Nuasala, Kenny Dowall, Aubusson, Warea- Hargreaves. Added to that they brought through their best juniors....Tuivasa Scheck, Tuopou and Cordner. All led by a club legend in Minichello.

They made the grand final in 2010 then had two lean years in a period where they got rid of their coach and captain, and put the pieces together for their 2013 assault.

It took them 3 years to win a comp. This is the formula we should be following and it's what Price could never comprehend, hence putting us 3 years behind where we should be.

 

[Get2dachopper!]

Amazing how manly have kept their core team together from their grand final win in 2011. Actually you'll find that they still have some players from their 2008 win.
We win one comp in 30 years and we get torn to shreds. Management surely has something to do with it. Some clubs just do it better.

 

[giboz71]

Amazing how manly have kept their core team together from their grand final win in 2011. Actually you'll find that they still have some players from their 2008 win.
We win one comp in 30 years and we get torn to shreds. Management surely has something to do with it. Some clubs just do it better.

Exactly. Like the Roosters last year, Manly also have their core group of veterans who have playing together for years.

Lyon, Watmough, King, Matai, Foran, Ballin, the Stewart brothers. Add a once in a generation half coming through your junior ranks in Cherry Evans, and of course you will compete every year. Effectively, you use the salary cap to complement this core group and add pieces where you see fit. But the foundation needs to be there. Manly does it great. We don't.

We spent half the year arguing who are fullback, half, prop and centre should be, along with replacing the coach. How is a team meant to be successful with that amount of instability and disruption?

 

[Jubileeboy]

you heard of back ended contracts right? exactly what we did to get Gasnier back on deck without having to release any players.
players can always fit under salary caps. there are deals now days for $1, and then back ended over the later years..
Sam williams was in no way released for Marshall, they simply didnt want Williams.
Soward left due to personal issues with the coach - it was in no way related to salary cap. and in actually fact we could have kept him and also widdop.
and you will always find that when you have a successful team and win a comp those players automatically increase in value, resulting in a club unable to keep them all under the salary cap , hence my point regarding the salary cap always making players available.

Yes but your post has some interesting takes on things and the last statement contradicts your argument?
- At no stage did I say Soward was released due to salary cap constraints.
- We bought Widdop as a replacement for Soward and would not have had two players wages tied up for one 5/8 spot. You're dreaming to think otherwise. Agreed Price and Soward did not get on.
- You cannot register a $1 contract as the NRL will place a notional value on the player.
- Williams releasing gave us available funds to offer a contract to Marshall, otherwise we were over the cap.
- Are Glenn Stewart and Watmough worth $900k a season at this stage in their career? That is what is required with their back- ended deals to keep them at Manly and clearly not realistic options.

 

[grouch]

Even though the club is mismanaged from top to bottom I reckon they have assembled a quality squad right now. But this is, really, the easiest task they have, considering every club has the same salary cap, and the cap is bankrolled in full by the NRL grant.

The hard part is adding value AROUND the cap: with coaching, development, innovation etc. It is in this area that our club seems to follow 'Worlds's Cheapest Practice' rather than World Best, and is left in the dust. A great team with shit coaching is basically a house of cards. Looks nice but the slightest puff brings it all down

 

[giboz71]

Even though the club is mismanaged from top to bottom I reckon they have assembled a quality squad right now. But this is, really, the easiest task they have, considering every club has the same salary cap, and the cap is bankrolled in full by the NRL grant.

The hard part is adding value AROUND the cap: with coaching, development, innovation etc. It is in this area that our club seems to follow 'Worlds's Cheapest Practice' rather than World Best, and is left in the dust. A great team with shit coaching is basically a house of cards. Looks nice but the slightest puff brings it all down

Yep great post. Innovation is exactly where we are lacking.

How did the Roosters land Moa? Or Manly with Brenton Lawrence? Or the Eels with Radrara? Players that nobody had heard of, cost very little, yet contribute week in week out.

Why are no juniors bursting on the scene like Brooks, Sironen, Moses and Tedesco at the Tigers?

Buying superstar players (and coaches) is the easy bit. It's the supporting cast that's important and our management have been hopeless at this for very long time.

I agree we have a good squad. What needs to happen now is for the squad to develop combinations (particularly in the backs) and add pieces where applicable (Prop, backrower, hooker and centre).

 

[Mr Red]

- At no stage did I say Soward was released due to salary cap constraints.
your comment - "We couldn't have got Widdop and kept Soward." suggests this is exactly what you were implying, given the context of the discussion - we were talking about salary caps and not their abilities or positions they can play.

- We bought Widdop as a replacement for Soward and would not have had two players wages tied up for one 5/8 spot. You're dreaming to think otherwise.
Incorrect - Soward plays some his best football at half like he is doing at the Panthers since Wallace was injured...so yes you could have both in the team without any problems.

- You cannot register a $1 contract as the NRL will place a notional value on the player.
incorrect - you can register a $1 contract.. as did Manly with Steve Menzies this season.

- Williams releasing gave us available funds to offer a contract to Marshall, otherwise we were over the cap.
incorrect. we had spare cap to cover the $50k we are giving marhsall this season.. Williams could have stayed if they wanted him.
Williams salary alone does not cover the $500k Marshall will earn next season so others need to be moved on. Further re-enforcing my point regarding salary caps making players available each season

- Are Glenn Stewart and Watmough worth $900k a season at this stage in their career? That is what is required with their back- ended deals to keep them at Manly and clearly not realistic options.
so are you in agreement with me now that the salary cap makes good players available each season????

 

[Jubileeboy]

Oh dear....

 

[R&WTILLIDIE]

Sorry...I don't agree in entirety. Whilst players might become available due to salary cap pressures, many clubs have already spent their salary cap on their squad of 25 or to simplify, have spent their cap money.
After the 2010 GF, we were under pressure to offload players as some had been offered more to go elsewhere. We couldn't compete and favourite sons went elsewhere. This year has been a perfect example of us having to offload Williams to try clear some money for Marshall. Otherwise we couldn't have grabbed him. We couldn't have got Widdop and kept Soward. We would be under pressure to offload a couple of high paid plodders for next year if we want a couple of new forwards but the trick is to produce your own at a reduced rate...before they are thrown big coin by others. You just can't have 17 blokes on $400k. For every Cameron King or Jack Bird, there are 5 or more Ah Mau's or Harrison's but the reality is you need both types. It's all good and well for these guys to want $700k or $300k plus in the case of some youngsters but how does that effect the balance of your squad? Something has to give.......not being argumentative but it's a bloody hard juggling act to try get it right every year and most clubs struggle with it.

Saints won the comp...allot of players went to other clubs or retired....this leaves allot of money in the piggybank to buy quality players...who did we replace these quality players with?...Cuthbertson?

Now look at Souths...they're losing Sam Burgess...who are they getting?..Tim Grant and Glenn Stewart.

So where's their so called "re-building" phase.

 

[BennyV]

How did the Roosters land Moa? Or Manly with Brenton Lawrence? Or the Eels with Radrara? Players that nobody had heard of, cost very little, yet contribute week in week out.

Someone like Mike Cooper perhaps?

Why are no juniors bursting on the scene like Brooks, Sironen, Moses and Tedesco at the Tigers?

The reasons for this is twofold iMO:
- Tigpies have a tendency to bring their top juniors in very young. Sometimes it pays off (Eg Woods, Lawrence to an extent), sometimes it has a horrble impact on the players development and career path - for example, Groat and Loltzen. Its interesting also to see Tedesco having suffered 2 season enders already in his short career, and things like this beg the question as to whether or not they were better of waiting for their bodies to be well prepped.
- Tigpies are going through a juniors purple patch. We have had those before and theyve seen the likes of Gasnier, Cooper, Ryles, Bailey, Timmins, etc come through at the same time...one could argue thay we may be on the brink of another with the likes of Dufty, Fonua-Blake, Bird, Aitken, Hutchinson, Crook all getting ready to make their claims on a jersey.

I would also argue that JDB, Stockwell, Runciman are looking to be fairly on track with development.

 

[jenninga]

Saints won the comp...allot of players went to other clubs or retired....this leaves allot of money in the piggybank to buy quality players...who did we replace these quality players with?...Cuthbertson?

Now look at Souths...they're losing Sam Burgess...who are they getting?..Tim Grant and Glenn Stewart.

So where's their so called "re-building" phase.

Bingo,rebuilding is a myth.
We lost our go to man Weyman ,who did we replace him with,Will Matthews,says it all

 

[Slippery Morris]

Saints are still looking in Samoa for a forward. Next is Cook Islands.