Mentally Weak Culture

[shiznit]

I know it's a bit of a cliche to say the Warriors are mentally weak as a football club.. abit like the old 'big Warriors forwards' comments...

But some of the football I've seen from both the Warriors and the Kiwis over the last month has really shocked me.

As stated... Its a cliche but mentally weak is actually what best describes what I've seen.

You look at the roster and you see very good footballers who have performed very well for other football clubs look utterly helpless in a Warriors jumper.

I honestly can't get my head around what about the Warriors club makes players who have previously played at a consistent elite level seem to drop they're standards when they become Warriors.

People talk about the culture of the club.. and from what I've seen through numerous changes to coaches and now CEO's the clubs culture just seems to have this stench of mental fragility.

What I can't really figure out is how NZ Rugby has such a strong culture that organisations from all over the world seem to try and replicate.. and for whatever reason... you drop the two flankers off the field and all of a sudden you get mental midgets.

Is it an Auckland thing perhaps?? As the Blues seem to also have some issues compared to the other NZ teams...

But even then... they are still probably better than the Aussie, Yarpie and Pommy clubs.

Why the f**k is it that the Warriors just always seem to be one poor piece of football away from collapsing in a giant heap...

whereas if you watch a NZ Rugby team you kind of feel as if it's only ever a matter of time until they go up another gear and pull away from the opposition.

I just don't get how we can be so mentally strong in RU across the board and mentally weak in RL.

I dunno... random rant over... feel free to comment... agree or disagree...

 

[WellsNZ]

The difference with the big forward thing is that it's entirely false whereas this seems entirely true.

One of the big differences with Union is that if you've made it to a high level of Union in New Zealand you have really gone through the grind. I know some incredibly talented rugby players who have not made the highest level for one reason or another. The competition of Rugby in NZ is of the highest standard right from a grass roots and school level, it's an incredibly difficult cauldron to rise through. The path to the Warriors is not nearly as competitive and demanding.

For Aussie this is true of league, if you've made it to the top of that system you need to be a great talent to have beat out the competition along the way.

We also need to remember that here Union is the game, the best talents want to play Rugby, that's what they dream of.

Even at club level in NZ the standard of play is so high, a good club player here can go get paid in Europe because we have such a wealth of talent we have bred here.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Aussie start to learn the game at a very young age (sg ball, jersey flegg etc). Over here half our players don't actually start to learn the game until they hit first grade (don't try to tell me the lines of Hurrell and Kata learnt anything steamrolling players in NYC) because we've either grabbed them from union or they've only played low standard local league.

Worst of all we've spent all our time and resources investing in athletic freaks and physical specimens. Look at how skillful Tui is, look at how destructive Kata is, Maumalo is so fast and so big, blah blah. It has never come under consideration that these guys don't even have half a football brain between them.

Composure, awareness, reactions, anticipation, vision, desire, heart, commitment - none of these things are measured in the weight room, and none of them are measured with a stopwatch. Name the players we have who actually have half of those things let alone the full 8 and I would bet that will be a damn short list.

 

[jaseg]

Aussie start to learn the game at a very young age (sg ball, jersey flegg etc). Over here half our players don't actually start to learn the game until they hit first grade (don't try to tell me the lines of Hurrell and Kata learnt anything steamrolling players in NYC) because we've either grabbed them from union or they've only played low standard local league.

Worst of all we've spent all our time and resources investing in athletic freaks and physical specimens. Look at how skillful Tui is, look at how destructive Kata is, Maumalo is so fast and so big, blah blah. It has never come under consideration that these guys don't even have half a football brain between them.

Composure, awareness, reactions, anticipation, vision, desire, heart, commitment - none of these things are measured in the weight room, and none of them are measured with a stopwatch. Name the players we have who actually have half of those things let alone the full 8 and I would bet that will be a damn short list.

For sure. Part of that is our coaching pathways - we aren't coaching guys coming through our own systems to the right level. Some guys will still make it, but not because of our system. Part of it is, as pointed out, structural and in that way very hard to avoid - not enough of these guys are RL players growing up. Still, a good late development system should have them progressing further.

You only need to look at Blake Ayshford to see the difference between a great athlete who has come through our system and a quality footballer. That dude doesn't really stand out in any way, but just makes good decisions - even little ones that most won't notice. He cuts infield and takes extra metres instead of leading his winger down a blind alley, he calls defensive decisions to his teammates.

We really need to start skimming some of the cream out of the NSW and QLD cup competitions to supplement the few juniors that genuinely make it on merit and the other NRL recruitment/existing players. Same with guys on the outer at their NRL clubs... there is value there.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

I've been saying for some time that QLD cup needs to be a focus. It's a higher standard than NSW Cup imo.

 

[shiznit]

The difference with the big forward thing is that it's entirely false whereas this seems entirely true.

One of the big differences with Union is that if you've made it to a high level of Union in New Zealand you have really gone through the grind. I know some incredibly talented rugby players who have not made the highest level for one reason or another. The competition of Rugby in NZ is of the highest standard right from a grass roots and school level, it's an incredibly difficult cauldron to rise through. The path to the Warriors is not nearly as competitive and demanding.

For Aussie this is true of league, if you've made it to the top of that system you need to be a great talent to have beat out the competition along the way.

We also need to remember that here Union is the game, the best talents want to play Rugby, that's what they dream of.

Even at club level in NZ the standard of play is so high, a good club player here can go get paid in Europe because we have such a wealth of talent we have bred here.

You see... I disagree with that a fair bit.

And I've really only started to come around to it.

What you say isn't completely wrong... it's actually right...

But what your missing is that this time really isn't an argument about player development...

This is an issue about wins and losses and the mentality of your football club/environment.

You get the feeling that the Warriors could sign Cameron Smith and Cooper Cronk for next season and they would turn up in Warriors jerseys and be f**king shithouse.

What I'm asking is why was RTS... a NZ Rugby Junior who played NYC with the Roosters before making FG debut perform so poorly when he play for the Warriors.

But to me it's like the Warriors themselves have a high performance issue that just cannot be changed at present.

 

[jaseg]

I've been saying for some time that QLD cup needs to be a focus. It's a higher standard than NSW Cup imo.

That used to be true... I'm not sure it strictly is anymore, though. Mainly that is due to the amount of top level clubs feeding players down into those comps. QLD cup have only 4 NRL clubs - Cowboys, Titans, Broncos & Storm. NSW cup have 12 (every team is a direct feeder in a 1:1 relationship).

It's not quite as bad as it seems on the surface though - the Broncos and Storm have a ridiculous amount of 2nd tier talent, and are very good at identifying, developing and retaining large amounts of it. But still probably ends up being a very small difference between the two (most of the rest of the difference chewed up by the structurally superior QLD 2nd tier independent clubs and PNG's existence).

But the point remains the same anyway - there is quality to be had there.

 

[WellsNZ]

You see... I disagree with that a fair bit.

And I've really only started to come around to it.

What you say isn't completely wrong... it's actually right...

But what your missing is that this time really isn't an argument about player development...

This is an issue about wins and losses and the mentality of your football club/environment.

You get the feeling that the Warriors could sign Cameron Smith and Cooper Cronk for next season and they would turn up in Warriors jerseys and be f**king shithouse.

What I'm asking is why was RTS... a NZ Rugby Junior who played NYC with the Roosters before making FG debut perform so poorly when he play for the Warriors.

But to me it's like the Warriors themselves have a high performance issue that just cannot be changed at present.

It has to be in part about player development though because this club is the spawn of that player development. They're a club who have had a much easier path to where they are than an elite Union player.

If Smith and Cronk came to the Warriors they'd still be great because of the professional, hard working type of characters they are. It's more difficult to forge that type of character when the path is easier. Of course they wouldn't be as good without the quality of team and club around them.

Roger came from an elite team where he was being grandfathered in by a legend number 1,surrounded by great forwards, great playmakers, other great attacking weapons. He was a star but still very young with a wealth of rep talent to help carry the load. Now he's on a shit team that can't lay a platform to capitalise on his abilities. The Roosters gave RTS to be the best he can, the Warriors hope he will pull magic out of nothing. The Roosters game showed the class of the man, he was great that game.

 

[legs 11]

we dont have enough of a talent pool in nz .......build the team around:
winners/mentally strong nz union players [mannerings] and journeymen aussie league players [campions]. then scan the touch and tag fields and experiment, looking for the next sj or benji.....all long term but we've got plenty of time, this season is another failure.

 

[Rich102]

Aussie start to learn the game at a very young age (sg ball, jersey flegg etc). Over here half our players don't actually start to learn the game until they hit first grade (don't try to tell me the lines of Hurrell and Kata learnt anything steamrolling players in NYC) because we've either grabbed them from union or they've only played low standard local league.

Worst of all we've spent all our time and resources investing in athletic freaks and physical specimens. Look at how skillful Tui is, look at how destructive Kata is, Maumalo is so fast and so big, blah blah. It has never come under consideration that these guys don't even have half a football brain between them.

Composure, awareness, reactions, anticipation, vision, desire, heart, commitment - none of these things are measured in the weight room, and none of them are measured with a stopwatch. Name the players we have who actually have half of those things let alone the full 8 and I would bet that will be a damn short list.

I have thought for a long time that a lot of our problems stem from a lack of quality coaching at a young age.
A lot of our kids are coached at junior level by parents or teachers, many playing rugby until they are picked for an age-group or U20's team.
Most Australian clubs and many schools have coaches with NRL experience.
There is no doubt that if you are taught the basics correctly then, later, when you are put under pressure, you will automatically do the right thing.

Look at our U20's this year. 11 games and not a single win. Why haven't the club put somebody with experience in there to identify the problem and fix it. This could affect these players futures.
This club places too much emphasis on jobs for the boys and not enough on proper coaching qualifications and skills.

Bring back Ackers. He could recruit and coach.

 

[Big Marn]

I have thought for a long time that a lot of our problems stem from a lack of quality coaching at a young age.
A lot of our kids are coached at junior level by parents or teachers, many playing rugby until they are picked for an age-group or U20's team.
Most Australian clubs and many schools have coaches with NRL experience.
There is no doubt that if you are taught the basics correctly then, later, when you are put under pressure, you will automatically do the right thing.

Look at our U20's this year. 11 games and not a single win. Why haven't the club put somebody with experience in there to identify the problem and fix it. This could affect these players futures.
This club places too much emphasis on jobs for the boys and not enough on proper coaching qualifications and skills.

Bring back Ackers. He could recruit and coach.

x2
and a coach to coach coaches. Get rid of the sympathy jobs who arent cutting it. eg Iro and Cappy. For a businessman Watson acts like a soft touch at times.

 

[legs 11]

I have thought for a long time that a lot of our problems stem from a lack of quality coaching at a young age.
A lot of our kids are coached at junior level by parents or teachers, many playing rugby until they are picked for an age-group or U20's team.
Most Australian clubs and many schools have coaches with NRL experience.
There is no doubt that if you are taught the basics correctly then, later, when you are put under pressure, you will automatically do the right thing.

Look at our U20's this year. 11 games and not a single win. Why haven't the club put somebody with experience in there to identify the problem and fix it. This could affect these players futures.
This club places too much emphasis on jobs for the boys and not enough on proper coaching qualifications and skills.

Bring back Ackers. He could recruit and coach.

i think you'l find that most nz junior coaches will have coaching ceritficates and qualifications....how ever this doesnt change them from being dumb pricks with weak values and personalities....i say this because plenty of nz clubs have an element of gang ties etc in their ranks. if you've got a gang associate with a high level coaching certificate who smokes weed, gets pissed, gives stupid gang signs with his fingers etc he is not going to help a 12 year old develop into a good man and then a good player

 

[Beavers Headgear]

There are a myriad of factors involved, many of them mentioned above

Paul Kent said something on NRL 360 at the start of the season, which seems to ring true. We hear every season "toughest pre season ever" "boys have never been fitter". While that may be true that they have done their toughest work in Auckland, the Australian clubs are doing everything 50% harder, and that shows through in fitness both in games and over the course of the season. They think that they are working hard and putting the work in, where the facts are what is hard for them is standard for an Aussie team

There was a clear moment last night for me, which summed up the Warriors players attitudes and efforts. Shaun Johnson isolated on his goal line with Thompson coming at him, actually does a reasonable job holding him up for a period of time. However there was absolutely zero help for him, which to me shows a lack of desperation, laziness, hunger and a poor attitude. The top teams would have had 3-4 guys there helping Johnson straight away covering for their team mate. The elite players continue to produce effort in the 80th minute even if they are down by 20, I don't think the Warriors do that

 

[ozbash]

Put our ISP team on next week.

 

[Big Marn]

Do Warriors players feel more secure in their role because of the lack of depth further down from others who want their position? As mentioned earlier, Australian Rugby League players have to be really good to rise above all those other players and they know that theres some one waiting in the wings to take their spot if they slip up because of the higher overall standard.
Having said that our NSW cup side is going well and the one player he has tested the waters with from that team (CNK) has come up trumps. (Injury forced his hand though) So why wont he give other players a go? Does Kearney lack the stones? I cant remember what he was doing at Parra but he seems to be too loyal with the status quo (any other team Bodene wouldnt be playing first grade)

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

Leadership - Mannering not there.

Leadership - RTS? this is what I was talking about at the start of the year. Hopefully people NOW understand...

Mentally weak culture? Perhaps, but even more so without anyone standing up.

 

[Bobby DIGital]

How much funding from the government does League get compared to Union?

 

[ozbash]

Slap the f**king bro culture out of the team, the coaches and the club.

I actually wonder if we should be in this comp, we'd be better off sending our players to the aussie clubs to get schooled up.

The aussies we get over here are basically on a working holiday and are not giving 100%.

I really don't think the 'novelty ' of having a side in the NRL has worn off, non performing players (Luke RTS Foran etc etf**kingcetera ) know their jobs are safe.. they always have since Cleary left.

 

[Cold Roses]

There was a clear moment last night for me, which summed up the Warriors players attitudes and efforts. Shaun Johnson isolated on his goal line with Thompson coming at him, actually does a reasonable job holding him up for a period of time. However there was absolutely zero help for him, which to me shows a lack of desperation, laziness, hunger and a poor attitude. The top teams would have had 3-4 guys there helping Johnson straight away covering for their team mate. The elite players continue to produce effort in the 80th minute even if they are down by 20, I don't think the Warriors do that

This is bang on. It's a lazy attitude. I've mentioned a couple of times in the past about an interview Joe Galavao gave when he retired. He mentioned how when he came to grade as a Warrior at fullback, he just thought it was great life and only did enough to get by. As a young Warrior in Auckland he was getting a shitload of smoke blown up his arse. It wasn't until he got to Penrith later on that he realised that he was going to have to actually put in some effort to make it as a first Grade player.

I can't help but think that this attitude has never left the club as far as the young blokes coming through Grade are concerned.

 

[RHYTHM AND STEALTH]

Do Warriors players feel more secure in their role because of the lack of depth further down from others who want their position? As mentioned earlier, Australian Rugby League players have to be really good to rise above all those other players and they know that theres some one waiting in the wings to take their spot if they slip up because of the higher overall standard.
Having said that our NSW cup side is going well and the one player he has tested the waters with from that team (CNK) has come up trumps. (Injury forced his hand though) So why wont he give other players a go? Does Kearney lack the stones? I cant remember what he was doing at Parra but he seems to be too loyal with the status quo (any other team Bodene wouldnt be playing first grade)

Your first paragraph in spot on and 2 names spring to mine

Kevin Locke and Tui Lolohea
Both given opportunites to play first grade, played well and all they had to do was to work hard and cement their place in the team. Both slacked off and other players were bought in. Both could of put up a fight to get back in the team but Locke thought bugger that and packed up and went now Tui looks like he will do the same.
f**king soft pampered pricks
Where is the fight, hunger and drive to make it.

Look at Ayshford he fought and showed heart and is back in first grade