Merge they said

[Willow]

Valid point.

Money has been spent developing these pristine ovals, yet as was reported in the media, they are under utilised.

Just to clarify this, Kogarah belongs to the local council. This makes good business sense when it comes to upgrades. Most clubs rent their home grounds. In fact, it's pretty silly to own a home ground and all the expenditure for its upkeep.

The vast majority of the money for Kogarah's upgrades over the last decade came from government funding - at all three levels, Federal, State and Local. Way back in 2002, after a concerted effort from R2K and Robert Stone, the St George Leagues Club threw in $500,000, thereby equalling a State Govt contribution of $500,000. Back then, the NSW govt required a dollar-for-dollar funding. But that was pretty much it... after that the Club enjoyed a flurry of incoming funds for the ground, in particular during a subsequent Federal election where Howard and Latham were competing - although the money was already allocated. The local council chipped in as well.

Jubilee definitely needs to be a multi-purpose ground and there have been pushes to play soccer there. Big Pat mentioned this so it is happening. IMO, if the football club has a rental commitment, then they need to explore more alternative revenue streams. I have no idea if they are properly pursuing this.

 

[Willow]

Besides, playing half the home games in Wollongong was one of the four non-negotiable conditions of the joint venture.

Playing half the home games at Kogarah was also part of that non-negotiable condition.

Just to reiterate, what were the other conditions?

 

[Prometheus]

Playing half the home games at Kogarah was also part of that non-negotiable condition.

No it wasn't. Kogarah wasn't even going to be an option at the time as it didn't meet the NRL's criteria. That is why we played at the SFS for a few years.

Just to reiterate, what were the other conditions?

St George and Illawarra each brought two non-negotiable conditions to the table. The Steelers required that half the home games be played in Wollongong and that "Illawarra" be part of the name. St George required the use of the Dragon logo and the red V jersey. Everything else was up for negotiation.

 

[Willow]

No it wasn't. Kogarah wasn't even going to be an option at the time as it didn't meet the NRL's criteria. That is why we played at the SFS for a few years.

Source?

St George and Illawarra each brought two non-negotiable conditions to the table. The Steelers required that half the home games be played in Wollongong and that "Illawarra" be part of the name. St George required the use of the Dragon logo and the red V jersey. Everything else was up for negotiation.

There were quite a few conditions to the JV agreement. To say that there were only four is a little short of the facts. Things chnage of course, but in 1998 there was no mention of Kogarah being ditched. The absurd NRL criteria thing was thrown in later, and subsequently discredited.

Anyway, here is the crux of it...

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The joint venture agreement (signed 1998):[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]NRL squad of 25 players: 13 from St George and 12 from Illawarra.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The club captaincy of 1999: co-captains Nathan Brown and Paul McGregor.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The co-coaches shall be David Waite and Andrew Farrar.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The St George jersey with the Red V shall be retained.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Team nickname shall be 'The Dragons'.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sock and shorts will resemble the Steelers old design.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All juniors will be shared.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Illawarra shall receive much needed funding from St George.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Home games to be shared equally between the districts of St George and Wollongong.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]St George and Illawarra shall retain their district first division sides.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The team shall be known as The St George Illawarra Dragons[/FONT]

http://www.jubileeavenue.com.au/history/1999.php

 

[Prometheus]

Source?

Bob Millward.

There were quite a few conditions to the JV agreement. To say that there were only four is a little short of the facts.

Clearly you've misunderstood what I have been talking about. When representatives from the Steelers and St George first met to discuss the possibility of a joint venture (in the lounge room of one of the St George board members), each side came to the meeting with two non-negotiable conditions- the four that I posted above. Everything else was negotiable. Of course the actual agreement that was reached after many more meetings was more complicated.

 

[bottle]

I'll be running from the altar if you ever propose to me bottle. lol

Put your mind to rest, I'm taken.

What you're saying is we stop being two individuals and meld into one person.

If you like. I want a permanent solution that cements the venture.

I would never expect my partner to give up her identity. We are still individuals with our own histories and experiences.

The joint venture is a marriage. And in that, it provides more freedoms for both partners than a merger ever could.

I want singularity. The marriage analogy was tongue in cheek of course, and as you have clearly pointed out, has its limitations in application.I think we are the dominant partner and most see it that way I feel. I believe it should eventually be formalised that way. Illawarra is St. George now, at least that's how I like to see it. Imo it would remove some of the divisive views that still surface from time to time, this thread eg.

I agree with the continuation of history as each partner is still in operation.

Again, I want to see singularity achieved.

 

[Prometheus]

Unita Caro disappeared a long time ago.

 

[Willow]

Bob Millward.

Must have been post 1998. There was a lot of bs about concrete cancer and so on. The fact is that Kogarah was in no worse condition than Leichhardt or Wollongong. The fact that some cosmetic changes were made in 2002 to get us back there is testament to this. It was essentially a matter of will.

Clearly you've misunderstood what I have been talking about.

lol. Actually, I don't think I've misunderstood you at all. But no dramas mate.

When representatives from the Steelers and St George first met to discuss the possibility of a joint venture (in the lounge room of one of the St George board members), each side came to the meeting with two non-negotiable conditions- the four that I posted above. Everything else was negotiable. Of course the actual agreement that was reached after many more meetings was more complicated.

So you're basing all this on a lounge room meeting you heard about? You say yourself that the subsequent agreement was more involved, so you surely must agree that this is open to conjecture.

I base my information of what was distributed by media release once the agreement was signed. Not some hearsay.

 

[Prometheus]

The information about the lounge room meeting and the two non-negotiable demands from each side, along with the information about the Steelers and St George boards becoming privy to New Ltd plans for a three-way merger with Cronulla were all revealed only a couple of years ago by Bob Millward in an article. I believe him. I've searched, but I can no longer find it.

 

[Willow]

We'll have to come back to this. Or meet up at some point.

 

[TruSaint]

Just to clarify this, Kogarah belongs to the local council. This makes good business sense when it comes to upgrades. Most clubs rent their home grounds. In fact, it's pretty silly to own a home ground and all the expenditure for its upkeep.

The vast majority of the money for Kogarah's upgrades over the last decade came from government funding - at all three levels, Federal, State and Local. Way back in 2002, after a concerted effort from R2K and Robert Stone, the St George Leagues Club threw in $500,000, thereby equalling a State Govt contribution of $500,000. Back then, the NSW govt required a dollar-for-dollar funding. But that was pretty much it... after that the Club enjoyed a flurry of incoming funds for the ground, in particular during a subsequent Federal election where Howard and Latham were competing - although the money was already allocated. The local council chipped in as well.

Jubilee definitely needs to be a multi-purpose ground and there have been pushes to play soccer there. Big Pat mentioned this so it is happening. IMO, if the football club has a rental commitment, then they need to explore more alternative revenue streams. I have no idea if they are properly pursuing this.

Thanks mate

 

[Dragon_Taylor6]

16 years on from the joint venture, both clubs would lose more fans by separating as many fans these days do not support one side but support the club as a whole and the longer it goes on the more it will be like this, we are a joint venture but we are as one and to consider us as two separate clubs is a negative

Some people don't even know a joint venture occurred as it was so long ago

 

[madunit]

So if Northern Eagles didnt work, West Tigers and STGI are both broke, that would prove that mergers/JVs dont work, its a stop gap bandaid solution which alienated many fans on both sides of the ledger, Manly splits from Northern Eagles and remain successful, Saints, Tigers, Wests, Illawarra all remain shit.

I don't think its fair to compare the three clubs. Dragons is a joint venture, Tigers is a merger and Eagles was a take over/coup.

Financial issues are entirely due to piss poor club management, nothing more.

Other non merge/jv clubs are struggling financially too.

That is also due to shithouse management.

 

[Follow Me Up To Carlton]

16 years on from the joint venture, both clubs would lose more fans by separating as many fans these days do not support one side but support the club as a whole and the longer it goes on the more it will be like this, we are a joint venture but we are as one and to consider us as two separate clubs is a negative

Some people don't even know a joint venture occurred as it was so long ago

Most fans accepted the JV with a whimper, and in the event most fans would likewise accept St George standing alone with a whimper.

We of course would lose the Stanleys, who we never wanted in the first place.

So basically we'd lose a bunch of causal Steelers fans and re-gain St George's hardcore support. Seems like a good trade to me.

Look at Manly - because it was run by administrators who put their club first they didn't hesitate to gut the aberration that was the Northern Eagles. Yes North's got screwed, but while the dogs bark the caravan moves on. End result - Manly Warringah live on stand alone, continue to represent their area and win Premierships.

 

[sethman75]

The fact that somebody brought up earlier than the club relies on pokies for it's main income stream shows you how bad the financial model is in the NRL.

Didn't the NRL just broker a 1 billion dollar deal?

Where is all the money going if not to the clubs??

 

[madunit]

The big question should be, why are clubs relying so heavily on income from pokies.

Thats the business mindset of 5 decades ago.

Dragons aren't alone there. Nearly every club does it. Typical of how clubs are run & why so many are in financial straits

 

[gorilla]

This is a special episode. - 2011

Danny Robinson admits Club is reliant om 85% gross club income from pokies, etc.

Note other clubs (in show) have much less reliance......

http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/watchonline/443/Clubland

 

[saint.nick]

Gee, that woman at 29 minutes got burned!

 

[Dragonboyd]

So just on the business side.
like, if a team like St George, with 20k members, a traditional powerhouse of the league..cant make money there is obviously a huge flaw in the overall business model and strategy of all clubs and the league.

backwards sport

Absolutely, very backwards.