Mergers and Premiership Tallies

[Jason Maher]

Baron Von Wanker is almost as good a troll as BunniesMan. Unfortunately he gave the game away when he brought the police into it...

Well done, old chap. You've hooked a fair few of us, with a little help from Softy, Antiflog, and the occasional interjection from that doyen of tipsters, moffo.

 

[Baron Vo Mandor]

So let me see the official governing body of the NRL states its your first premiership and St George Dragons have 15.

You are saying this isnt fraudulant?

If so you are a despicable person.

 

[BIKER_DRAGON]

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

THIS THREAD ADDS UP TO NO MORE THAN A MASSIVE

 

[Matt23]

Can we lock this thread yet?

 

[Baron Vo Mandor]

Why because I am doing the decent and right thing against the evil LU owner, and because he thinks okay to act in a morally reprehensible way?

If you want to walk away from this issue Matt23 feel free I will always stand for truth and justice and I wont be silenced!

 

[Matt23]

I wont be silenced!

You will be if the threads locked ;-)

 

[madunit]

So as I can tell from this thread:

*Dragons fans believe that their former Dragons side and the current merged entity have won a combined 16 premierships, which is correct and are celebrating this as such.
*The NRL officially declare this as the merged entity's maiden title. Which is also correct. Meaning St.George has won 15 premierships on their own merit. They have 1 premiership with the assistance of Illawarra (ie - St.George didn't win the title on their own merits)

I have one question.

How come the 2 games played by Australasia against Great Britain in 1910 are not declared as official test matches?

 

[juanfarkall]

I have one question.

How come the 2 games played by Australasia against Great Britain in 1910 are not declared as official test matches?

Because Colin Love has not yet found a way to make a dollar out of it for himself.

 

[SoftSydney]

So as I can tell from this thread:

*Dragons fans believe that their former Dragons side and the current merged entity have won a combined 16 premierships, which is correct and are celebrating this as such.
*The NRL officially declare this as the merged entity's maiden title. Which is also correct. Meaning St.George has won 15 premierships on their own merit. They have 1 premiership with the assistance of Illawarra (ie - St.George didn't win the title on their own merits)

I have one question.

How come the 2 games played by Australasia against Great Britain in 1910 are not declared as official test matches?

I dont see how STG has claim to any part of a 16th premiership, STGI is not half a club or part of a club it is its own whole individual entity, its a stand alone club which was created in 1999 hence the official stance of 1.
STG premiership race ended at 15 as did wests and balmain, what happens if STGI merge again do they then add three teams tallys?

 

[Willow]

Willow.

I am still waiting for you to prove to me that St George Dragons competed in the 2010 NRL comp.

I have proven it.

St George are part of the Joint Venture.

You're one of a handful people who can't see it.

The reason why you're here is because you can no longer call Saints 'chokers', so you need a new security blanket. I can see your pain from here.

Now that you've been smashed on this point, are you willing to confess that you fabricated a Mark Gasnier statement in this thread?

 

[Willow]

There's a good quotable for the real trolls :lol:

Well they are a selective bunch.

I can't see anything wrong with acknowledging 16 premierships overall. We've won 15 before with St George since 1921, St George Illawarra won in 2010 so by progression it becomes 16 in TOTAL.

This is the club's view as well (if you read the 2010 St George Illawarra club journal).

The real question is: why do opposition supporters care?

I have my theories, and it's pretty obvious that it mostly stems from petty jealousy.

Seriously though, I truly believe that we're arguing two different things. If you get down to semantics, you would get us all to agree on the same things, which is why I started putting forward the "moral" side of the coin. I'm not a Steelers fan, as you know, but I still strongly feel that the Illawarra side of the joint venture doesn't get due recognition for being a 50% part of it - so statements like "16 premierships for the Dragons" and "all-Sydney grand final" to me come across as disrespectful to the Illawarra side of the joint venture.

Still curious as to where you're getting this 'disrespect' thing from. Just a gut feeling?

I've only met Illawarra supporters that wish to embrace the heritage. I'm sure there are others who disgraee, but have you met any?

FTR, the JV is not 50% owned by the Steelers (closer to 25%).

And while I'll agree with the commentator's faux pas on the "all-Sydney grand final", but that hasn't stopped the NRL using this 'moving of the geographical boundaries' to enforce Sydney designated home finals in 2011 - essentially denying both Wollongong and Kogarah any choice should we qualify for a home final next year. So perhaps you should bring it up with the NRL and their broadcasters rather then suggest the St George side of the JV should feel in anyway responsible. Just another one of NRL contradictions.

Having said that, it's only a debate at the end of the day. Dragons fans are quite entitled to feel proud of St George's involvement in 16 premiership wins - nobody can take that away from them now. Nor can any of us really change the "official" stance of the NRL which is that St George's premiership tally will forever remain at 15.

Yes and no. Things change.

I'm sure we're all fine with the NRL - established in 1998 - having NSWRL records dating back to 1908. Just another one of those contradictions.

 

[Fingerbang]

I dont see how STG has claim to any part of a 16th premiership, STGI is not half a club or part of a club it is its own whole individual entity, its a stand alone club which was created in 1999 hence the official stance of 1.
STG premiership race ended at 15 as did wests and balmain, what happens if STGI merge again do they then add three teams tallys?

There is your mistake....it never was a standalone entity. Always has been a JV between Dragons and Steelers.

If they merged again with, say Sharks, and won the comp....it would be a first for the StGeorgeIllawarraCronulla Dragons, 17th for Dragons and 2nd for Illawarra.

 

[Azkatro]

I'm sure we're all fine with the NRL - established in 1998 - having NSWRL records dating back to 1908. Just another one of those contradictions.

Haha yes you've touched on that before. You could probably have a similar thread about that alone, potentially. Especially considering how different the two organisations are. But if you look to England as an example, they do tend to differentiate "Super League", which started in 1996, to the "Championship" - however player records will always be combined.

Having said that, where would we be in that case? The Dragons have 15 NSWRFL premierships and 1 NRL premiership? The Broncos would be a good debate. 2 NSWRL titles, 1 Super League title and 2 NRL titles!

 

[Willow]

Haha yes you've touched on that before. You could probably have a similar thread about that alone, potentially. Especially considering how different the two organisations are. But if you look to England as an example, they do tend to differentiate "Super League", which started in 1996, to the "Championship" - however player records will always be combined.

Having said that, where would we be in that case? The Dragons have 15 NSWRFL premierships and 1 NRL premiership? The Broncos would be a good debate. 2 NSWRL titles, 1 Super League title and 2 NRL titles!

Interesting comparison to League in the UK. A lot clubs there maintain their old rugby football roots. For example, Hull FC are recognised as being founded in 1865 and have on their jersey badge, 'established 1865' - 30 years before the definitive breakaway from union.

This is because they recognise the club didn't form out of some petri dish in 1895, and it was more of an evolution. Hull FC is one of those those clubs where a continuation of their history is worthy of acknowledgement.

If only the NRL could be so enlightened when it comes to the real heritage of the game.

 

[Ulysseus]

So can someone answer me one question please.
Which building is one Peter Dousts office located in?

 

[Gaba]

I dont see how STG has claim to any part of a 16th premiership, STGI is not half a club or part of a club it is its own whole individual entity, its a stand alone club which was created in 1999 hence the official stance of 1.
STG premiership race ended at 15 as did wests and balmain, what happens if STGI merge again do they then add three teams tallys?

you still are showing the lack of understanding between mergers and joint ventures

Wests and balmain merged as the wests tigers , wests tigers as a club look after the players,finances etc


Stgeorge and Illawarra formed a joint venture , where stgeorge look after the finances etc, and illawarra supply the players,etc

2 clubs in the joint venture operate as separate entity

Because illawarra didnt want to lose the Illawarra name and their colours
Illawarra rejected a merger between them and cronulla, they would had to changed name and colours



Hence the difference

 

[SoftSydney]

you still are showing the lack of understanding between mergers and joint ventures

Wests and balmain merged as the wests tigers


Stgeorge and Illawarra formed a joint venture

Because illawarra didnt want to lose the Illawarra name and their colours
Illawarra rejected a merger between them and cronulla, they would had to changed names and colours



Hence the difference

http://www.weststigers.com.au/default.aspx?s=history


Wests Tigers Rugby League Football Pty Ltd is a company, limited by shares, established under a joint venture agreement between the Balmain Tigers DRLFC, Western Suburbs DRLFC and Western Suburbs Leagues Clubs at Ashfield and Campbelltown.
The Constitution of the company provides for a shareholders’ agreement between the two parties, with 50% equity entitlements held by Balmain and 50% by the Wests Group.
Both parties to the shareholders agreement provide five Directors of the company plus a Company Secretary who is also the CEO of Wests Tigers, who hold office for a period of three years. The Chairman of the company is provided, in the first term of 12 months, by Balmain Tigers, and the second term by Western Suburbs Magpies. They then alternate.
The Board of Directors is required to meet as and when required, and has established a monthly cycle.

 

[SoftSydney]

There is your mistake....it never was a standalone entity. Always has been a JV between Dragons and Steelers.

If they merged again with, say Sharks, and won the comp....it would be a first for the StGeorgeIllawarraCronulla Dragons, 17th for Dragons and 2nd for Illawarra.[/QUOTE]

Think about what u just wrote!
1 stg/illa/sharks
2 illa
1 Sharks
17 StG

so 4 teams claim 1 premierhsip :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Gaba]

http://www.weststigers.com.au/default.aspx?s=history


Wests Tigers Rugby League Football Pty Ltd is a company, limited by shares, established under a joint venture agreement between the Balmain Tigers DRLFC, Western Suburbs DRLFC and Western Suburbs Leagues Clubs at Ashfield and Campbelltown.
The Constitution of the company provides for a shareholders’ agreement between the two parties, with 50% equity entitlements held by Balmain and 50% by the Wests Group.
Both parties to the shareholders agreement provide five Directors of the company plus a Company Secretary who is also the CEO of Wests Tigers, who hold office for a period of three years. The Chairman of the company is provided, in the first term of 12 months, by Balmain Tigers, and the second term by Western Suburbs Magpies. They then alternate.
The Board of Directors is required to meet as and when required, and has established a monthly cycle.

They are still under wests tigers banner

 

[Gaba]

There is your mistake....it never was a standalone entity. Always has been a JV between Dragons and Steelers.

If they merged again with, say Sharks, and won the comp....it would be a first for the StGeorgeIllawarraCronulla Dragons, 17th for Dragons and 2nd for Illawarra.[/QUOTE]

Think about what u just wrote!
1 stg/illa/sharks
2 illa
1 Sharks
17 StG

so 4 teams claim 1 premierhsip :lol::lol::lol:

That wont happen though as long illawarra is with the dragons in the joint venture