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Nathan Cleary

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21,880
Nathan Cleary has his issues but I think a lot of people need to look at more contributing factors to why our attack is bad, it’s not bad because Nathan Cleary isn’t Shaun Johnson, it’s bad because there is literally no plan, unless of course you count passing to kikau and hope he barges over 4 players to score as a game plan. Even James Maloney, a proven creative half struggles massively in our system.

Our attacking coaches whoever they may be have a lot and I mean a lot to be held accountable for, we have no set plays, we refuse to use forwards as decoys, our forwards don’t even run good lines, there’s a reason why wingers don’t score much tries at Penrith, it’s not because they’re bad players or anything it’s because at other clubs a wingers job is to fall over the try line, when was the last time a Penrith winger ever did that because I seriously can’t remember, they usually have to score some freakish try in the corner.

As time goes by I think more and more people are realising how stupid it was to let Moylan go because with him we had sweeping plays and he always knew which pass to throw, go short or cut out 1 or 2 players, or throw the dummy and go himself, in today’s game a ball playing fullback is pretty much essential because of how slow the game is played at, they create an extra man In attack. In today’s game halves have almost become obsolete, you could count on one hand the amount of truly consistent top halves in today’s era, and none of them compare to the great halves of years past, I mean ffs Cooper Cronk will go down as an all time great even though he is a textbook 7/10 halfback, has a good kicking game and competes well, compared to Andrew Johns he’s not even in the same stratosphere.

A lot of people say we over paid Nathan Cleary and I agree with that, problem is nearly every single half today is not on anything near what they’re actually worth, the market for halves is a shit show, okay Nathan isn’t worth 900k, but is Milford worth 1 mill? Is Moses worth 850k? Hunt 1.2 mill? I could go on and on and on, truth is most halves are on around double what they’re actually worth, maybe we shouldn’t have paid Nathan more than 500 but I guarantee you there would be clubs out there that would have thrown a lot more at him because there is a shortage of halves out there.


You make a lot of good points here, it’s certainly not all Nathan’s fault. We need to surround him with better attacking players as well as the coaches. I’ve talked about that in other threads, we lack pace & height in our backs.


Re the market for halves, a lot are overpaid, but there’s still some sensible money out there. Best I can tell players like Adam Reynolds, Cody Walker, Chad Townsend, Luke Brooks are on sensible money.

Just because other clubs are signing halves on crazy money doesn’t mean we have to follow them. If you hold your nerve you might be able to sign someone decent at the right price.
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,331
You make a lot of good points here, it’s certainly not all Nathan’s fault. We need to surround him with better attacking players as well as the coaches. I’ve talked about that in other threads, we lack pace & height in our backs.


Re the market for halves, a lot are overpaid, but there’s still some sensible money out there. Best I can tell players like Adam Reynolds, Cody Walker, Chad Townsend, Luke Brooks are on sensible money.

Just because other clubs are signing halves on crazy money doesn’t mean we have to follow them. If you hold your nerve you might be able to sign someone decent at the right price.
Maybe now. But Brooks and Moses were on ridiculous $600k per season contracts after 1 season of NRL. In the cap back then thats a far bigger chunk than it is today.

Keeping a quality half at the non glamour clubs takes a lot more money. Although we can thank the Dragons for overvaluing halves in general. Ben Hunt on $1.2m has changed what players expect as halves and what clubs are willing to offer.

Warriors tabled a $2m 4 year deal to a player who had not even played NRL ffs. $500k for an unproven player is insane. Nathan wasn't even on that last year. Hell god knows if he's even on the $1m yet... his old contract expired at the end of this season. Chances are it was upgraded along with his extension. But he might not be on full freight yet.
 
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21,880
Maybe now. But Brooks and Moses were on ridiculous $600k per season contracts after 1 season of NRL. In the cap back then thats a far bigger chunk than it is today.

Keeping a quality half at the non glamour clubs takes a lot more money. Although we can thank the Dragons for overvaluing halves in general. Ben Hunt on $1.2m has changed what players expect as halves and what clubs are willing to offer.

Warriors tabled a $2m 4 year deal to a player who had not even played NRL ffs. $500k for an unproven player is insane. Nathan wasn't even on that last year. Hell god knows if he's even on the $1m yet... his old contract expired at the end of this season. Chances are it was upgraded along with his extension. But he might not be on full freight yet.


You’re right, other clubs panic at the sign of potential too, it’s not just us. But my focus is on what the panthers need to do better. Nathan himself says he’s never been much of an attacking half, well someone at the club should’ve known that too.

Cleary’s new deal kicks in next year, but I think he got an upgrade this year too.
 
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21,880
Should also say, I’d previously thought Gould might’ve been responsible for the long contract extension to Nathan (as he loved 5 year deals) but from what I’ve been told it was Dave O’Neil who was responsible.

The same O’Neill who is friends with Ivan Cleary. That’s just bad corporate governance.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
Let’s compare their first full season to each other then.

DCE - 19 try assists in 27 games

Nathan - 10 Try assists in 26 games


I’m not sure I ever talked about a gap, but I’d say if DCE is on $1 million per year, then Nathan is probably worth about $700k.

If Nathan was getting paid commensurate with his abilities or past performances, there’d be a lot less discussion in this thread.

Again, that's a premiership winning side vs a team that finished 7th. Playing in a top four team would be good for a couple extra assists at least.

I agree that he is not worth his big contract, like I said argued against signing him to a big money deal until I was blue in the face last season. If anything what he has done this year has improved my opinion of him, not lessened it. I think he will be worth his deal in a season or two.

I think many are underestimating how much coaching and just being in a good side can affect players performance, halves In particular.
 
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21,880
Again, that's a premiership winning side vs a team that finished 7th. Playing in a top four team would be good for a couple extra assists at least.

I agree that he is not worth his big contract, like I said argued against signing him to a big money deal until I was blue in the face last season. If anything what he has done this year has improved my opinion of him, not lessened it. I think he will be worth his deal in a season or two.

I think many are underestimating how much coaching and just being in a good side can affect players performance, halves In particular.

2017 then.

They came 7th, we came 6th.

DCE - 19 try assists in 25 games

Nathan - 10 try assists in 26 games



Not sure what Nathan has done to improve your opinion of him? This has been his worst season to date.

To be worth his deal he needs to start creating regular attacking opportunities, be it tries or line break assists. Given his own admissions I have serious doubts he’ll ever be worth the money of contract length he’s been given.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
2017 then.

They came 7th, we came 6th.

DCE - 19 try assists in 25 games

Nathan - 10 try assists in 26 games



Not sure what Nathan has done to improve your opinion of him? This has been his worst season to date.

To be worth his deal he needs to start creating regular attacking opportunities, be it tries or line break assists. Given his own admissions I have serious doubts he’ll ever be worth the money of contract length he’s been given.

To be fair he was heavily criticised after origin game 1 this year and the Roosters game then came out in the Souths game and got a try assist off an attacking kick and seemed to change his play style to something more akin to a genuine halfback. He's obviously capable of better I'm just not sure what conditions he needs to meet them though I'd guess coaching and the right players around him.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
2017 then.

They came 7th, we came 6th.

DCE - 19 try assists in 25 games

Nathan - 10 try assists in 26 games



Not sure what Nathan has done to improve your opinion of him? This has been his worst season to date.

To be worth his deal he needs to start creating regular attacking opportunities, be it tries or line break assists. Given his own admissions I have serious doubts he’ll ever be worth the money of contract length he’s been given.

His first full year vs a 6th or 7th year origin half.

Are you just cherry picking years that make him look bad? Lol

And he does create tries regularly, just not as regular as DCE does in his best season.
 
Last edited:

Panther_Daz

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,901
His first full year vs a 6th year international.

With DCE he would hit a centre with a bullet pass that got them on the outside of their man and then the centre puts the winger over.

Or he would double pump before playing short to an edge forward who would break the line and then pass it to someone in support when he gets to the fullback.

In these instances DCE may not be credited with a try assist as statisticians would credit the final pass.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
With DCE he would hit a centre with a bullet pass that got them on the outside of their man and then the centre puts the winger over.

Or he would double pump before playing short to an edge forward who would break the line and then pass it to someone in support when he gets to the fullback.

In these instances DCE may not be credited with a try assist as statisticians would credit the final pass.

It’s Called a hockey assist. I can think of at least two hockey assists Nathan has had in the last two weeks.
 
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21,880
His first full year vs a 6th or 7th year origin half.

Are you just cherry picking years that make him look bad? Lol

And he does create tries regularly, just not as regular as DCE does in his best season.

So you can compare 2018 stats for your purposes, but I can’t compare 2017?! Hmm...


First you said I can’t compare their first seasons because Manly made the GF, now you say I can’t compare a season where they finished pretty much the same. How many times you want to move the goal posts?

You won’t even let me play by your rules. It’s hardly cherry picking when you told me I can’t compare their first seasons because of the disparity in the teams. So naturally I went to look for a season with similar results.



And he doesn’t create tries regularly sorry. He’s got 32 try assists in 72 games, that’s at a rate of 0.44 a game.

Let’s compare that to Mitchell Pearce in his first 4 seasons (87) games. 56 try assists at a rate of 0.64 a game.

Now before you tell me Pearce had a much better team or something, he didn’t. The roosters were mostly bad in those 4 years. Their win percentage over those seasons was 41%.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
So you can compare 2018 stats for your purposes, but I can’t compare 2017?! Hmm...


First you said I can’t compare their first seasons because Manly made the GF, now you say I can’t compare a season where they finished pretty much the same. How many times you want to move the goal posts?

You won’t even let me play by your rules. It’s hardly cherry picking when you told me I can’t compare their first seasons because of the disparity in the teams. So naturally I went to look for a season with similar results.



And he doesn’t create tries regularly sorry. He’s got 32 try assists in 72 games, that’s at a rate of 0.44 a game.

Let’s compare that to Mitchell Pearce in his first 4 seasons (87) games. 56 try assists at a rate of 0.64 a game.

Now before you tell me Pearce had a much better team or something, he didn’t. The roosters were mostly bad in those 4 years. Their win percentage over those seasons was 41%.

You can compare whatever you like I never said otherwise, I provided a bit of context that is all. I grabbed Nathan’s average from last season and named all the halves that that were the same or very close. You are just going back looking for seasons where there is a big gap between him and one of the halves named.
 
Messages
21,880
You can compare whatever you like I never said otherwise, I provided a bit of context that is all. I grabbed Nathan’s average from last season and named all the halves that that were the same or very close. You are just going back looking for seasons where there is a big gap between him and one of the halves named.

I’m not just looking for seasons where there’s a gap :joy:

It’s logical to compare their first seasons.

It’s also logical to compare seasons where there’s a similar team performance.


I notice you avoided the Mitchell Pearce comparison, though. Ridiculous that you think 0.44 try assists per game is regular.



Also what has he done this season to inspire extra confidence for you? That one has me scratching my head.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
I’m not just looking for seasons where there’s a gap :joy:

It’s logical to compare their first seasons.

It’s also logical to compare seasons where there’s a similar team performance.


I notice you avoided the Mitchell Pearce comparison, though. Ridiculous that you think 0.44 try assists per game is regular.



Also what has he done this season to inspire extra confidence for you? That one has me scratching my head.

His improvement after origin 1 should give anyone confidence. Need a bigger sample size to make sure of it though.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
I’m not just looking for seasons where there’s a gap :joy:

It’s logical to compare their first seasons.

It’s also logical to compare seasons where there’s a similar team performance.


I notice you avoided the Mitchell Pearce comparison, though. Ridiculous that you think 0.44 try assists per game is regular.



Also what has he done this season to inspire extra confidence for you? That one has me scratching my head.

I think 0.44 over his career is regular enough given the piss poor attacking teams and coaches hes had.
 
Messages
21,880
I think 0.44 over his career is regular enough given the piss poor attacking teams and coaches hes had.

I directly compared him to a half that had bad coaching and attack. And he was well behind him. Roosters went through 3 coaches in Pearce’s first 4 seasons.


Also, I’m still intrigued by what Cleary has done to give you more confidence this year?
 

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