NSW Clubs forced out of QLD Cup

[Pete Cash]

It just blows my mind that the NSWRL is potentially opening up the gigantic Raiders catchment area as Queensland territory. Is this not cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[greeneyed]

The Sydney clubs killed NSW Premier League so as to save costs. They wanted a model where they'd send surplus players to the Sydney metro league, and they'd only run two teams. Toyota Cup and NRL. The "system" then forced all NRL teams to have Toyota Cup teams as part of the deal.

OK, so the Raiders said, we'll put our over age players with Souths Logan. Saved Souths Logan... a team with a history back to the start of rugby league in Brisbane.

Sydney teams... linked up with Sydney metro cup teams.

Fast forward. Some Sydney teams realise that killing Premier League might not have been a good idea. The metro cup/NSW Cup is a disaster in terms of quality and isn't good for their fringe first graders. Q Cup has become the best second tier competition for over age players by a long way. More and more Sydney NRL teams think... we should link with Q Cup instead. The second tier NSW Cup is on its knees... and all due to the decisions of the Sydney clubs!

So the NSWRL "solution" is... ban all NRL teams in "NSW" from linking with Q Cup teams. Incredible that they think they have the moral authority to do it, given the history, but Sydneycentric types are like that.

Except that impacts unfairly on teams outside Sydney, doesn't it? There are quite a lot of local teams in Sydney, with fairly rich leagues clubs to link with. They can continue to share costs with local clubs. Canberra... no such opportunities, but there's a perfectly good relationship with Souths Logan in Brisbane that suits both teams. All opportunities explored, no team for the Raiders to link with. So the NSWRL says... "we don't care... you MUST put in a team in NSW Cup". Even though that means at least a $500k financial disadvantage for the Raiders vis a vis Sydney teams.

And then NEXT the NSWRL says: "Don't put a team in the NSW Cup, and we ban you from junior reps as well". So that means that Canberra, which is a huge contributor to junior development in Canberra and all of southern and country NSW... the NSWRL says... we don't want you to do that, we won't have you.

So those who think this is fair and reasonable from the NSWRL.. or even in the interests of NSW OR Australian rugby league... have peanuts for brains.

 

[greeneyed]

Ok so the number is $500K as quoted by Canberra

Are you telling me Canberra can't get $500K of sponsorship and grow their membership base as a one city team and throughout southern regional NSW ??

Travel costs to Sydney can't be the issue as they can fly players all over Qld

And setting up a team within the club is not the issue there is pretty good structure in place at the moment to run FG / U20 / U18 / U16

Choosing a 2nd Tier club is not a issue as Queanbeyan Blues is a ready made team and they have the venue in the old Canberra home ground of Seiffort Oval

Canberra ran a standalone RG team over around 25 years - so ability and people who want to help out will not be a issue


This has nothing to do with money - just a principal thing - club trying to tell the admin what to do. And not liking when the admin ie (ARL/QRL/NSWRL/NSW CRL) dictate terms

This one of the reasons why the QRL has been fighting News Ltd to stop happening - when setting up the ARLC

This is Sydney trying to tell Canberra what to do.

Why should Canberra have to bear a financial cost that Sydney clubs don't?

Fair and level playing field should be the principle.

Sydney clubs have opportunities to share the costs of NSW Cup teams with other organisations, Canberra does not. But do in Brisbane with Souths Logan, a team the Raiders have historic links with. Queanbeyan Blues are the same organisation as the Raiders. Putting the Blues or any Canberra team will inevitably come at direct extra cost to the Raiders. Taking the Blues or Warriors or Goulburn out of the Canberra competition weakens the local league in a major way as well.

Why do Sydney clubs expect Canberra to make financial outlays that they themselves are not prepared to do?

 

[greeneyed]

Uh, not the point I was making. Surely it would be more cost effective (transport costs alone, not to mention other local benefits) to have a Canberra-run open-age team that acts as the Raiders' feeder in the ACT...

Actually, that's the whole point. It isn't.

 

[greeneyed]

Good thing I can argue without the unnecessary personal attacks. Good stuff though, you make the odd valid point outside the abuse.

If it were possible I'd prefer a national reserve grade competition which would see the current NSW Cup and QLD Cups reduced to Metro-Cup sort of level. That scenario still, in my opinion, would need to prevent dual registration, so teams would need to remain within their own state. Sort of like conferencing the smaller clubs I guess. Whether you think its right or not, I (and many others, judging by this thread) believe that clubs should get their players from their local region and keep them there, not send them interstate once they're at a certain age. In many ways the current scenario is illogical.

As for SLM - sad times indeed if the Raiders are the only thing keeping them afloat. Is their management much chop? Maybe they need some sort of strategy to keep them alive, have they investigated a deal with the Titans perhaps? The guilt factor of SLM's possible crash cannot be a bargaining chip for Canberra - like in NSW, there must be other options that can ensure SLM's survival.

You clearly don't have much idea about Souths Logan's situation or what is happening in Q Cup.

A link with the Titans? Well they already link with the Gold Coast region teams and Ipswich. Brisbane Easts Tigers have just ditched a link with the Broncos, because they already link with so many other teams. The Broncos said the Tigers could have first call on a few Broncos players if not required - but the players were never "not required". The link was worthless to them.

Souths Logan have no leagues club to back them. They have a club, but it is not of the sort you'd imagine in NSW. It doesn't support the team in any way.

Souths Logan will die without the Raiders link, no doubt, at least for top line competition. They'll join Valleys, Brothers, Wests in history.

Geoff Carr is supposed to be the CEO of the ARL, but in pursing this narrow minded policy on behalf of the NSWRL, in his role as CEO of the NSWRL, he is demonstrating a dreadful conflict of interest. He is prepared to sacrifice a team in Brisbane, a team that goes back to the establishment of the sport in Queensland, to manufacture a team in Goulburn to participate in NSW Cup. Ridiculous.

 

[skeepe]

Actually, that's the whole point. It isn't.

Exactly. A number of Raiders fringe players are based up in Logan. They fly up at the start of the year and live there, training with the club. The Raiders would probably only fly up 4-5 players on a regular basis.

This is much cheaper than contracting 20-25 players for a second team, plus a coaching staff, and then transporting them up to Sydney and back every second week. I'll remind you that as it stands for most NSW Cup teams, an away match is a short drive across Sydney.

This is why the Raiders wanted to link with an existing club, even one in Sydney. But none could be found. Therefore, the only viable option for the Canberra Raiders as a club is to retain the link with Souths Logan. But the NSWRL have only even been interested in what's best for themselves. They are prepared to lose the entire Canberra catchment area over some misguided belief that they are standing up for their principles. Absolutely ridiculous that in 2010 this sort of Sydney-centric mindset still pervades the sport.

 

[Garts]

Harsh yes, but as others have pointed out, Canberra and Manly are obviously full of sh*t/doing something wrong if Cronulla can affford it and they can't.

Cronulla probably can't afford it and it might be contributing to their financial situation. If you are running a tight business you need to cut costs in certain places.

 

[greeneyed]

So Canberra and Manly feel its too expensive to play RG in NSW but its cheaper in QLD - go figure ??

This was discussed and agreed by ARL/QRL/NSWRL months ago

While I can see the issue for Souths Logan & Sunshine Coast, the issue is for the NSW aligned NRL clubs to play their RG in the NSW Cup team

Seems like this will go to the wire in a power play at NSWRL board level

Interesting to see what the spin on Auckland and Melbourne are on this one

Melbourne I guess still have a U18/U16 team in 2011 (or do they ??) even though they handed over their players with Cronulla at NSW Cup level

And Auckland who have a NSW Cup team but no U18/U16 team

Wonder what the opinion if the ARLC comes in on Nov 1

It was not "agreed" by the QRL, the QRL has been against it and is still against it. The NSWRL just used their stacked votes on the ARL to "decide" it. Then the "ARL" (read "NSWRL") pushed it on to the NRL.

 

[Ashman]

The Sydney clubs killed NSW Premier League so as to save costs. They wanted a model where they'd send surplus players to the Sydney metro league, and they'd only run two teams. Toyota Cup and NRL. The "system" then forced all NRL teams to have Toyota Cup teams as part of the deal.

OK, so the Raiders said, we'll put our over age players with Souths Logan. Saved Souths Logan... a team with a history back to the start of rugby league in Brisbane.

Sydney teams... linked up with Sydney metro cup teams.

Fast forward. Some Sydney teams realise that killing Premier League might not have been a good idea. The metro cup/NSW Cup is a disaster in terms of quality and isn't good for their fringe first graders. Q Cup has become the best second tier competition for over age players by a long way. More and more Sydney NRL teams think... we should link with Q Cup instead. The second tier NSW Cup is on its knees... and all due to the decisions of the Sydney clubs!

So the NSWRL "solution" is... ban all NRL teams in "NSW" from linking with Q Cup teams. Incredible that they think they have the moral authority to do it, given the history, but Sydneycentric types are like that.

Except that impacts unfairly on teams outside Sydney, doesn't it? There are quite a lot of local teams in Sydney, with fairly rich leagues clubs to link with. They can continue to share costs with local clubs. Canberra... no such opportunities, but there's a perfectly good relationship with Souths Logan in Brisbane that suits both teams. All opportunities explored, no team for the Raiders to link with. So the NSWRL says... "we don't care... you MUST put in a team in NSW Cup". Even though that means at least a $500k financial disadvantage for the Raiders vis a vis Sydney teams.

And then NEXT the NSWRL says: "Don't put a team in the NSW Cup, and we ban you from junior reps as well". So that means that Canberra, which is a huge contributor to junior development in Canberra and all of southern and country NSW... the NSWRL says... we don't want you to do that, we won't have you.

So those who think this is fair and reasonable from the NSWRL.. or even in the interests of NSW OR Australian rugby league... have peanuts for brains.

100% spot on analysis right here!

 

[greeneyed]

I could understand if say, the Tweed or Byron had an NRL team and there was conjecture over where to place the feeder club but we're talking teams 1000-odd km away.

Maroons representation becomes another issue again - players who might otherwise play their first senior football in NSW are now, because of the feeder placements of these two clubs, endin up QLDers - rightly or wrongly.

I wonder why the NSWRL allows Tweed Heads Seagulls to play in the Q Cup? What a dreadful threat to the NSWRL!!!!!! It must be stopped!!!!!

 

[greenfins]

Ahhh NSWRL what a joke, keep sending the players to Qld, cheaper option, better comp.

 

[siv]

This is Sydney trying to tell Canberra what to do.

Why should Canberra have to bear a financial cost that Sydney clubs don't?

Fair and level playing field should be the principle.

Sydney clubs have opportunities to share the costs of NSW Cup teams with other organisations, Canberra does not. But do in Brisbane with Souths Logan, a team the Raiders have historic links with. Queanbeyan Blues are the same organisation as the Raiders. Putting the Blues or any Canberra team will inevitably come at direct extra cost to the Raiders. Taking the Blues or Warriors or Goulburn out of the Canberra competition weakens the local league in a major way as well.

Why do Sydney clubs expect Canberra to make financial outlays that they themselves are not prepared to do?

You have this Sydney v the rest bias which is clouding your feedback here

Why cannot Canberra one city region fund the $500K ? That is the more important question here

If fact why cannot ALL NRL teams fund this? In a $14 mil dollar business this is not a significant amount, to invest in a club future arrangement

Especially when ALL NSW based teams used to do this

Yes you are right that historically there was a dumb move made a few years ago.

The reason why the Qld Cup model does not work in NSW is because the NRL clubs are the old NSW clubs, while in Qld clubs were "created"

I still think the only real way out of this whole mess is
- 1 - a National RG
- 2 - NSW Cup / Bundy Cup / NSW Country Championship to merge - just like QLd Cup did over 10 years ago

Then if a club cannot fund its existance in a FG/RG/U20 structure they can revert back to Tier 2 Qld Cup/NSW Cup level

As there are PLENTY of other regions/clubs that want to participate at the elite level

- CC Bears
- Western Brisbane
- Northern Brisbane
- Central Qld
- Wellington NZ
- Perth
- Adelaide
- Port Moresby

 

[Timbo]

It's probably been mentioned already in this thread (I can't be stuffed sifting through it), but Canberra DID originally try and establish it's feeder club in the NSW Cup (I'm fairly certain with the Magpies).

The issue here for Canberra is mainly one of transport and basing/establishment costs.

How much did it cost Easts to link with Newtown, or Souths with Norths? Very little. They were existing clubs with existing setups and they just shunted their backup players over there.

We would have to found a new club from scratch (people just saying we could use the Queanbeyan Blues - are you serious? It's like saying Souths could just use the Coogee Wombats) and all the ancillary staff surrounding it. How do I know this? Because originally we WERE going to found a NSW Cup team (based out of Goulburn, not Queanbeyan) but the costs were astronomical (especially startup costs) so we decided we'd stick with our current arrangement.

All Carr is doing here is ensuring the next generation of Josh Dugan's wear a maroon jersey one day.

Having said all that, if some kind of arrangement can't be made to place our junior in the FOGS Colts competitions and whatnot, I imagine we'll end up caving in - we're built on juniors and without a junior pathway I imagine our retention would go through the floor.

But I don't see why because the NSWRL runs and inferior 2nd Tier competition to the QRL we be dragged back to the field.

Lastly, Timmah - you're bang on. My preference would be a national reserve grade competition and forget about QLD Cup and NSW Cup. Change the Toyota Cup format so that rather it being an age competition, you're required to select x number of U20s in your starting side.

 

[Bro Bear]

After watching the QLD Cup grand final I would not say it is superior than the NSW Cup competiton,

If the NSWRL and CRL can sponsor the CC Centurion as Newcastle's RG team why can't they assist Canberra and Manly. Canberra with Goulburn and Manly with Belrose or a NSW Koori's team.

The NRL should never of have the Toyota club. It should of had the Reserve Grade with NRL clubs feeding into the QLD and NSW Cup teams. The NSW Cup and QLD Cup be combined as one competiton.

Some examples for the present


Souths - North Sydney/Central Coast Bears
Easts - Newtown/Ipswich Jets
Cronulla - WA/SA Sharks
Canberra - Monaro/Souths Logan
Melbourne - Riverina/Easts Tigers
Manly - Sunshine Coast/CQLD
Wests Tigers - Balmain/Wests Magpies
Brisbane - Redcliffe/Wynnum Manly

 

[El Diablo]

It was not "agreed" by the QRL,.

it was
http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=326879

 

[Paullyboy]

This is ridiculous. Anyone who thinks the NSWRL is even comparable to the Qld Cup is kidding themselves.

Geoff Carr is just an agenda-driven arsehole who fortunately we should never see again once the old boys club is driven out and the independant commission kicks in. The realist in me realises that the clown will somehow ensure he stays involved though.

 

[(KW)]

Simple solution here for the Raiders - enter the Harman Seadogs into the NSW Cup. They will get beat 300-0 every week, but atleast we are entering a team and allowing our SG Ball and H Matthews teams to compete. Keep sending the fringe first graders to Souths Logan, but not as official Raiders contracted players. Once we need them, sign them to a one game contract or similar as required.

KW

 

[Walt Flanigan]

Simple solution here for the Raiders - enter the Harman Seadogs into the NSW Cup. They will get beat 300-0 every week, but atleast we are entering a team and allowing our SG Ball and H Matthews teams to compete. Keep sending the fringe first graders to Souths Logan, but not as official Raiders contracted players. Once we need them, sign them to a one game contract or similar as required.

KW

I don't think the Seadogs want to play in an inferior competition either ;-)

 

[Timmah]

Wow, Raiders fans really are bitter...

 

[RHCP]

I bet the referees are behind all this.