NZ Expansion

[Perth Red]

There wont be, anywhere in the world where a player is signed for 8 years in a contact sport... that is true desperation right there. .

you mean except for Calvin Johnson?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82797e12/article/calvin-johnson-signs-new-eightyear-contract-with-lions

 

[shiznit]

you mean except for Calvin Johnson?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82797e12/article/calvin-johnson-signs-new-eightyear-contract-with-lions

I don't know if you understand how NFL contracts work but that megaton deal isn't 8 years guaranteed.

A portion upfront is guaranteed... Usually the first 2 or so seasons.... Then the next 5 or 6 seasons he can be cut.

I'm not taking sides here by the way.... Just wanted to point that out...

Edit: Incase anyone's curious.... Here's a breakdown of it...

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/detroit-lions/calvin-johnson/

 

[Te Kaha]

You think DCE is the only player earning $million in NRL?

Provide examples then, I have several... and links to back them up, as you demanded yourself.

What you seem to be saying the choice is:
if you're a top player, want to represent your country and earn a $million, play NRL

No that's what you think I'm saying... but then that's because you aren't very smart.

if youre old or middling player, forgo the chance to play for your country, move overseas and earn a $million play Union

Again, that's your not very well informed opinion.

Seems a reasonably attractive choice to play RL imo. Probably why so many Kiwis choose to. Having a second NZ team will only increase that attraction for top jnrs.

No doubt it will, however it wont be because of any salary cap increase or potential to earn more. That's going to be Rugby.


And I'm glad you have given up your stupid claim about NZ Rugby being in "financial strife">

you mean except for Calvin Johnson?

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82797e12/article/calvin-johnson-signs-new-eightyear-contract-with-lions"]http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82797e12/article/calvin-johnson-signs-new-eightyear-contract-with-lions[/URL]

Now you can add NFL to Rugby and League for which you don't know anything about...

 

[Perth Red]

1. Daly Cherry-Evans, Sea Eagles ($1.67 million)
2. Kieran Foran, Eels ($1.2 million)
3. Cameron Smith, Storm ($1 million)
4. Johnathan Thurston, Cowboys ($1 million)

http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl...into-perspective/story-e6frf3ru-1227382900648

add in rep payments of $90k origin and $40k every Kangaroos game and there's a few on around a million$.
NRls salary cap is increasing year on year. There is no doubt that millionaires list will be 10-15 strong within a couple of years.

out of interest what are the top NZRU players in NZ on? I'm guessing with a diminishing S15 salary cap that they are reliant on All Black tops to earn a decent crust?

I might be reading this wrong but it looks like max salary of $190k for S15 playing and $150k if you win RUWC with All-blacks? NZRU must be chucking on more that to keep players in NZ aren't they or is $340k really as much as you can earn in a good RUWC year?

Super Rugby teams can now contract up to 32 players (up from 28), with maximum payments remaining at $180,000 for 2013 and rising by $5000 in each of the following two years. There is also a major increase in World Cup winning bonus payments, with All Blacks collecting a potential $150,000 each if they defend their crown. This is up from the $100,000 maximum bonus from 2011.

http://www.superrugbytips.com/2013/08/do-new-zealands-rugby-players-get-paid.html

 

[shiznit]

out of interest what are the top NZRU players in NZ on?

The financial draw from being an All Black i think goes beyond just what you get while your playing in NZ. It's also a massive increase in your value on the overseas market when you leave NZ. Being a former All Black is like gold on the market... Or so the NZRU propaganda says... Whether it's totally true or not I'm not sure... I think a lot of but comes down to circumstance.

As far as the top earning guys go... For some strange reason the media here don't really publish the numbers... The NZ Herald did do a sporting Rich list about 6 months ago.

McCaw was 5th on 2.5M a year and Dan Carter was 6th on 2.2M I think.

Edit: here's the Article: http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11335078

 

[RoosTah]

FWIW, I don't believe NZ can support a second NRL team. While it would be nice to see, the population is just too small and the potential for corporate investment is minimal.
RL will never challenge RU in terms of market dominance in NZ, and it would be ridiculous to even make such an attempt. Nor will it challenge RU in terms of potential player salaries given the far greater global presence of RU and the opportunity to earn big $$ in Europe, the UK, and Japan (without also considering the lifestyle opportunities those places afford).
The challenge for RL in NZ is to consolidate the support it currently has, and carefully target a segmented market for playing numbers/financial growth.

Perth and Brisbane 2 for mine.

Fair points LeftRightOut. In terms of sheer player numbers NZ certainly could support another side - I've read that NZ now provides more players to the NRL than Queensland does. But perhaps you're right that another NZ team would be tough work from an economics standpoint. With only 1 city with 1 million plus people, NZ does have it's challenge's for sure, but I still like the idea of having more teams there.

Agree with you that Perth needs a team probably beforehand, but I'm not sold on Brisbane 2 to be honest. Brisbane just seems to work as a one team town so well and from what people up there tell me the city doesn't have the geographical divide Sydney does.

That said, before any other teams get added, I seriously think we need to work out a way to halve the number of teams in Sydney. No mean feat to be sure, but it would be a massive benefit to the competition to see it happen.

 

[Te Kaha]

1. Daly Cherry-Evans, Sea Eagles ($1.67 million)
2. Kieran Foran, Eels ($1.2 million)
3. Cameron Smith, Storm ($1 million)
4. Johnathan Thurston, Cowboys ($1 million)

http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl...into-perspective/story-e6frf3ru-1227382900648

add in rep payments of $90k origin and $40k every Kangaroos game and there's a few on around a million$.
NRls salary cap is increasing year on year. There is no doubt that millionaires list will be 10-15 strong within a couple of years.

So now DCE is a six year not 8? funny how there is a different story every five minutes.

out of interest what are the top NZRU players in NZ on? I'm guessing with a diminishing S15 salary cap that they are reliant on All Black tops to earn a decent crust?

Again you show your ignorance. There is no salary cap in the Super 15 for NZ teams.

I might be reading this wrong but it looks like max salary of $190k for S15 playing and $150k if you win RUWC with All-blacks? NZRU must be chucking on more that to keep players in NZ aren't they or is $340k really as much as you can earn in a good RUWC year?

http://www.superrugbytips.com/2013/08/do-new-zealands-rugby-players-get-paid.html

Yes you are reading it wrong. no surprise really

 

[Perth Red]

So come on bright spark how would you read it and what are Nzru players in NZ earning? With some evidence please.

Super Rugby teams can now contract up to 32 players (up from 28), with maximum payments remaining at $180,000 for 2013 and rising by $5000 in each of the following two years

 

[The Great Dane]

Because they aren't quantifiable, that's the point. Your entire argument (as above) is that lots of money will mean these young guys will sign on with an NRL team. That's just bullshit. There are plenty of intangibles that will decide that.

Again I've never said that intangibles don't make a difference or that all young players will sign on with the NRL.

I've simply said that more will sign on with the NRL then the NZRU because of the added incentives of large amounts of money, a free education that would put your average young kid of the same age into tens of thousands of dollars of debt, and the chance to setup the rest of their lives relatively easily.

And I reckon that my claims would be backed up by statistics (if such stats exist) considering that if you look at countries like Australia and the USA where there're multiple sports with similar financial assets trying to entice athletes to play their sport professionally, that the ones that can afford to offer the best deals and chances to start a young persons life to the most athletes are the ones that attract the most players of the highest quality.

Michel Jordan wanted be a baseball player when he was a kid, but when it became obvious that basketball was going to be his best chance to go professional and were going to offer him the most incentives to play their sport he picked basketball.

Quade Cooper, James O'Connor, Kurtley Beale and a host of other Australian RU players were all NRL juniors at one point or another before not making the cut and joining RU.

Israel Folau and SBW grew up wanting to play RU professionally, we all know how they ended up.

Wayne Rooney grew up wanting to be a RL player before choosing to continue with soccer instead.

Kieren Jack (Garry Jacks son), just because I thought we needed at least one AFL example.

Do you need more examples of players that decided to follow the money instead of their hearts?

I never said I didn't want one.

Then why the f##k are you arguing the point!

No you misread. I said there arte more reasons then money for them to stay in Rugby,

Yes and I never argued that point, I simply said that quality of life and potential salary are two of the biggest and most defining reasons that young kids and their families consider when choosing which sport their child will pursue when faced with multiple contracts, and that much more often then not these two factors are the things that sway their decision in one direction or another.

and that there is just as much, if not more money in staying in rugby. Any new NRL team will have to offer more than just money.

Not if they want to stay in the southern hemisphere, let alone in NZ. Staying close to ones family and friends is another big thing that most people consider when deciding which contract to sign and at which club.

And besides we were talking about juniors, where RL has the advantage of being able to offer more players larger contracts then another sport in the southern hemisphere besides the AFL, and unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) French and Japanese RU are only interested in signing establish professional first grade RU/RL players on big contracts not juniors and developmental players that haven't got anywhere near breaking first grade yet.

 

[Te Kaha]

So come on bright spark how would you read it and what are Nzru players in NZ earning? With some evidence please.

But.. but... but the salary cap.... You have included only the NZRU top up in those figures. You haven't included what the franchise pays them to play for it. Once again you are wrong. Give it up, what you know about NZ sport could fit on a pin head, with room for the king James bible.

Again I've never said that intangibles don't make a difference or that all young players will sign on with the NRL.

No what you said was "Besides as I said before with the club would come a large influx of cash for players coming from the NRL that local RU will not be able to match, so many players that historically would have chosen to play RU will choose to play RL for the cash." This is just not true. And as I have said if it was just money they were after they can earn more playing rugby.

I've simply said that more will sign on with the NRL then the NZRU because of the added incentives of large amounts of money, a free education that would put your average young kid of the same age into tens of thousands of dollars of debt, and the chance to setup the rest of their lives relatively easily.

No you said the NZRU wont be able to match the money and therefore "most" "juniors" who would have signed with Rugby would now sign with League. That is wrong.

And I reckon that my claims would be backed up by statistics (if such stats exist) considering that if you look at countries like Australia and the USA where there're multiple sports with similar financial assets trying to entice athletes to play their sport professionally, that the ones that can afford to offer the best deals and chances to start a young persons life to the most athletes are the ones that attract the most players of the highest quality.

Michel Jordan wanted be a baseball player when he was a kid, but when it became obvious that basketball was going to be his best chance to go professional and were going to offer him the most incentives to play their sport he picked basketball.

And I'm telling you that Playing Rugby will still be the way that most go In NZ if money was the deciding factor. Your claim that NZ2 would have more money is wrong. It will be other factors that dictate which sport they play. Shaun Johnston was never going to play rugby. He was a League kid all the way.

Quade Cooper, James O'Connor, Kurtley Beale and a host of other Australian RU players were all NRL juniors at one point or another before not making the cut and joining RU.

Israel Folau and SBW grew up wanting to play RU professionally, we all know how they ended up.

Wayne Rooney grew up wanting to be a RL player before choosing to continue with soccer instead.

Kieren Jack (Garry Jacks son), just because I thought we needed at least one AFL example.

Do you need more examples of players that decided to follow the money instead of their hearts?

Shock Australian LU poster claiming that because something happens in Aus it must happen in NZ.

Then why the f##k are you arguing the point!

Because THE point you made and all the stupid claims Perth Red has made are wrong. And last I checked the point of a message board was to debate. It has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting NZ2.
My opinion on that is that it would have to be done perfectly as there will not be a second chance. If it fails there will never be a new NZ team so they better get it right.

Yes and I never argued that point, I simply said that quality of life and potential salary are two of the biggest and most defining reasons that young kids and their families consider when choosing which sport their child will pursue when faced with multiple contracts, and that much more often then not these two factors are the things that sway their decision in one direction or another.

Really? kids choose a sport because of what kind of life it will give them???? you must have had a terrible childhood... No kids chose a sport that they love watching or their parents love watching or their mates play or that just looks fun. They don't think that "I should play this because in 10-20 years it will make me rich"

Not if they want to stay in the southern hemisphere, let alone in NZ. Staying close to ones family and friends is another big thing that most people consider when deciding which contract to sign and at which club.

For some people... However the amount of NZ players playing league and Rugby in Aus and Europe says you are wrong.

And besides we were talking about juniors, where RL has the advantage of being able to offer more players larger contracts then another sport in the southern hemisphere besides the AFL, and unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) French and Japanese RU are only interested in signing establish professional first grade RU/RL players on big contracts not juniors and developmental players that haven't got anywhere near breaking first grade yet.

NZ Rugby only needs to fill five Professional teams. They have more than enough money to sign the BEST juniors for that.

 

[flamin]

So now DCE is a six year not 8? funny how there is a different story every five minutes.

It's an 8 year contract including an option in DCE's favour to extend the last two years.

 

[Te Kaha]

It's an 8 year contract including an option in DCE's favour to extend the last two years.

So we have links saying 8 years, links saying 6 years now its 8 plus 2. Seems like nobody actually has a clue what his contract is for.

 

[flamin]

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...s-warriors-ceo-jim-doyle-20150607-ghij4k.html

The NRL could lose an advantage it has over rugby union if it scraps the Holden Cup. Warriors chief executive Jim Doyle believes it is crucial for the game, especially in New Zealand, that the NRL continue to run a high-profile under 20s competition.

NRL club chief executives will discuss the future of the Under 20s Holden Cup at a meeting on Thursday. Most are believed to favour a proposal to split it into NSW and Queensland competitions at the end of the 2016 season.

Doyle said he would not be concerned if that were to happen, provided the Warriors under 20s games continued to be televised by Sky TV in New Zealand.

"With the Under 20s being on TV and the fact that the Warriors have won three of the last five competitions it has been really good for the profile of rugby league and a really good recruitment tool," Doyle said.

"I know there has been talk about it not being a national competition but becoming state-based and I think as long as Sky keeps showing it on tv and as long as the Warriors still do well then it will still get a lot of profile and still be a real big positive for us."

Warriors centres Konrad Hurrell and Solomone Kata, 2016 recruit Roger Tuivasa-Sheck and Sydney Roosters-bound fullback Omar Slaimankhel were all schoolboy rugby union stars before switching codes to play in the NRL's under 20s competition.

If changes were made to the structure of the Under 20s, Doyle said the Warriors would seek to join the NSW competition as they already have a team in the NSW Cup.

He said they may also enter an Under 18s team in the SG Ball competition.

"A lot of kids who play rugby union switch over to play rugby league because of the profile of the Under 20s so we would want to maintain that," Doyle said. "As long as they keep it under 20s, as long as the pathways are still there, it would be OK.

"At the moment you have got Under 16s and Under 18s with the Harold Mathews and the SG Ball and then you have got the Under 20s and open aged NSW Cup.

"Maybe the next step for us is to have an Under 18s team that plays in the SG Ball as well as an Under 20s and a NSW Cup team."

Sydney Roosters recruitment manager Peter O'Sullivan has previously told Fairfax Media that the Under 20s competition gave the NRL a significant advantage in the battle with rugby union for talent such as Tuivasa-Sheck. "One of the reasons Roger came across was for the opportunity to train full-time and play in that under-20s system, which rugby union here and in New Zealand can't offer," O'Sullivan said.

Doyle's comments reinforce the point: there will be NZ teenagers who choose to play rugby league through the pathways provided by a second NZ team.

 

[flamin]

So we have links saying 8 years, links saying 6 years now its 8 plus 2. Seems like nobody actually has a clue what his contract is for.

No it's 8 years including the option to extend for 2. DCE is guaranteed 8 years if he wants it, but is committed to the club for 6.

 

[taipan]

No it's 8 years including the option to extend for 2. DCE is guaranteed 8 years if he wants it, but is committed to the club for 6.

Yep over $1m pa for DCE,all well reported,cannot understand people still don't understand.Too many collapsed union scrums methinks.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...s-warriors-ceo-jim-doyle-20150607-ghij4k.html



Doyle's comments reinforce the point: there will be NZ teenagers who choose to play rugby league through the pathways provided by a second NZ team.

Talent in NZ isn't the problem, never really has been. Money, ongoing corporate support and coaching/development infrastructure are.

 

[flamin]

Talent in NZ isn't the problem, never really has been. Money, ongoing corporate support and coaching/development infrastructure are.

Agreed.

 

[Te Kaha]

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...s-warriors-ceo-jim-doyle-20150607-ghij4k.html

Doyle's comments reinforce the point: there will be NZ teenagers who choose to play rugby league through the pathways provided by a second NZ team.

Of course they will, but it wont be because of the money which is being claimed here.

No it's 8 years including the option to extend for 2. DCE is guaranteed 8 years if he wants it, but is committed to the club for 6.

Or until he blows a knee and they agree to part ways.

Yep over $1m pa for DCE,all well reported,cannot understand people still don't understand.Too many collapsed union scrums methinks.

Not so well reported that there are three different links to three different amounts in this thread alone. But maybe you should learn to read before commenting.

Talent in NZ isn't the problem, never really has been. Money, ongoing corporate support and coaching/development infrastructure are.

That's in in one.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Won't the league make more money altogether if it is a more intense competition? A second NZ team has more chance of maintaining that if it can bring in more players than the other options.

 

[taipan]

Of course they will, but it wont be because of the money which is being claimed here.


Or until he blows a knee and they agree to part ways.


Not so well reported that there are three different links to three different amounts in this thread alone. But maybe you should learn to read before commenting.


That's in in one.

" Until he blow a knee" ,throw in a hypothetical ,funny that could happen to any union player(which you leap to the defence) on big bucks who plays in France or Japan,injuries are not rugby league exclusive at last reports.You are stating the bleeding obvious :roll:
The French have no qualms in discarding players past their use by date.



Maybe you do a little analysing before leaping at shadows,all references I found doing my own research re DCE's contract from News Ltd/SMH/Yahoo 7,all indicated a potential lifetime $10m figure .They all infer at least regardless of the time scale $1m plus a year, heaven forbid his knee blows in year 4.
Please show exactly where he would be earning less than the reputed $1m figure,more so as that was around the annual mark offered by the Tits.If you can find such I will bow to your better judgement.