Organised crime and drugs in sport investigation part II

[taipan]

So no fair-minded person would ever call an opinion piece interesting?

Again you respond with 2 made up arguments



Wrong. I'm a Titan's supporter.



Wrong. Never said anything bout NBN. I'm in IT, I actually like Labor's plan better than the Liberals (75% cost for 25% quality = Bad plan), we are a unique country with remote capital cities we need strong infrastructure to compete in a digital economy (Conroy is an absolute tool I'll never forgive for trying to bring in the internet filter).

Dude, I'm struggling to understand your point/s.

Stop being so defensive and open your mind to understand different points of view, then you might understand.



I don't think anyone would have issue with that, assuming this fiasco of an investigation eventually arrives there. But will it be worth the damage they have done, not only to the sporting clubs but also to the Labor brand?

Garbler he is confusing you with me:crazy:.I brought up the issues and my club is the one under investigation.
I am apparently biased,yet he is not.A unique human being.

 

[eozsmiles]

I think one of the reasons people are upset about this is because the NRL has appeared to have been so lax in it's drug testing over the years. Many fans. particularly older ones, have this idea in their head that players don't take drugs and the authorities are doing everything in their power to catch those that are.

Evidence suggests that is a long way from the truth. I think that is part of the reason that some footy fans aren't taking this very well - either they are genuinely shocked to think that players take drugs or are shocked that the authorities (not the NRL or ARLC) have decided to do something.

 

[taipan]

I think one of the reasons people are upset about this is because the NRL has appeared to have been so lax in it's drug testing over the years. Many fans. particularly older ones, have this idea in their head that players don't take drugs and the authorities are doing everything in their power to catch those that are.

Evidence suggests that is a long way from the truth. I think that is part of the reason that some footy fans aren't taking this very well - either they are genuinely shocked to think that players take drugs or are shocked that the authorities (not the NRL or ARLC) have decided to do something.

Give the average person(including oldies) some credit and knowledge about drugs.It is in the news just about every day with drug busts,kids high at parties and gigs,family members.

Especially after the Armstrong revelations,the US sprinters,the East German athletes,the Chines swimmers.There has been a couple of NRL players busted ,that is public knowledge.

What NRL fans are unhappy about is the way it was done, from go to whoa.The resignation of an ASADA lawyer John Marshall SC who according to Masters left, because of supposed "deals" involving Essendon.

The public announcement when players appeared to be shoved under the one blanket.The whole thing has been handled badly and that includes a few club officials.Is it any wonder Cowboys,Penrith and Raiders officials were ropeable.

The NRL agree is not faultless,as they should have had an integrity unit in place well before this year and indeed before 2011.

I will say this if players are indeed guilty then throw the book,but if the whole exercise turns up very little ,then the powers that be should get a kick up the Kyber.

 

[ek999]

Hang on El Diablo, the government gave Collingwood $10m to help build a community centre which will house a toy library, headspace, Evolve (another kids charity) and an AFL charity that connects people with businesses offering traineeships along with Collingwood HQ and it is a rort of the highest order.

http://www.cfcfoundation.com.au/cfc-community-centre/tenants/

Yet the $5m the Bulldogs got to redevelop Belmore into their training facilities and trial venue is yet to be mentioned by you. Absolutely no benefit to the community there apart from the occasional soccer match. All it did was give one of the NRL's richest clubs brand spanking new training facilities and all it cost them was a lazy $500k

http://www.canterbury.nsw.gov.au/resources/documents/Redev-Belm-Sports-Bus.pdf

 

[Pete Cash]

Its just quite hard to catch drug cheats. The nrl does its best I'd say. There are sports like tennis and weightlifting where the governing bodies don't give too much of a shit and sports like cycling where they do but they struggle to catch athletes because its a difficult thing to do.

From what I've read its pretty clear that dank used a WADA banned substance with the afl club. Which means he probably did use it at Cronulla. the afl and dank are claiming that asada told them it was all good to go. Now if this is the case to me its an asada f**k up and I'm not sure how I feel about players being punished because of that.

 

[unforgiven]

I'm sure everyone here brings bias to this arguement, like an debate, be that political, life experiences, cultural or sporting. I am very happy to admit my bias in this arguement are others happy to do the same.

My bias stems from me being a fan of cycling, I saw that sport almost destroyed throught the widespread use of drugs, I'm not speaking of the the recent Armstrong disqualifications. During the mid 2000's cyclist were being banned on a very regular occurance during the major events in that sport, winners had their titles stripped and this has continued to the recent stripping of titles from Armstrong and Contador.

This has led to me having a strongly anti-doping stance and i'm extremely disappointed that we have let sport in Australia be influenced by drugs. I believe we need to rid our sports of any possible drug use. Does this affect my opinion in this debate? most certainly. Does that mean I agree completely with how this investigation has been handled? No.

But I do believe there are a few too many people putting their heads in the sand and trying to blame everyone else for what is happening instead of blaming the people who have caused this problem. I know we don't know who those people are yet, well we need to wait until that is determined.

 

[magpie4ever]

Garbler he is confusing you with me:crazy:.I brought up the issues and my club is the one under investigation.
I am apparently biased,yet he is not.A unique human being.

Yeah, mixed up you and Garbler.

My point still stands; that the article is an opinion piece, not fact; and the main body of it is about how the differing sporting bodies use ASADA (WADA) in their drug violation policy - not the other way around (which the author of the article overlooks).

Anyway, I'm willing to wait until the whole process is completed before making a judgment - on the process, ASADA etc.

 

[magpie4ever]

Hang on El Diablo, the government gave Collingwood $10m to help build a community centre which will house a toy library, headspace, Evolve (another kids charity) and an AFL charity that connects people with businesses offering traineeships along with Collingwood HQ and it is a rort of the highest order.

http://www.cfcfoundation.com.au/cfc-community-centre/tenants/

Yet the $5m the Bulldogs got to redevelop Belmore into their training facilities and trial venue is yet to be mentioned by you. Absolutely no benefit to the community there apart from the occasional soccer match. All it did was give one of the NRL's richest clubs brand spanking new training facilities and all it cost them was a lazy $500k

http://www.canterbury.nsw.gov.au/resources/documents/Redev-Belm-Sports-Bus.pdf

Some excellent points raised - looking forward to his response.

 

[magpie4ever]

I'm sure everyone here brings bias to this arguement, like an debate, be that political, life experiences, cultural or sporting. I am very happy to admit my bias in this arguement are others happy to do the same.

My bias stems from me being a fan of cycling, I saw that sport almost destroyed throught the widespread use of drugs, I'm not speaking of the the recent Armstrong disqualifications. During the mid 2000's cyclist were being banned on a very regular occurance during the major events in that sport, winners had their titles stripped and this has continued to the recent stripping of titles from Armstrong and Contador.

This has led to me having a strongly anti-doping stance and i'm extremely disappointed that we have let sport in Australia be influenced by drugs. I believe we need to rid our sports of any possible drug use. Does this affect my opinion in this debate? most certainly. Does that mean I agree completely with how this investigation has been handled? No.

But I do believe there are a few too many people putting their heads in the sand and trying to blame everyone else for what is happening instead of blaming the people who have caused this problem. I know we don't know who those people are yet, well we need to wait until that is determined.[/QUOTE]

Well put, blame everyone bar the real culprits (if any).

 

[Dogs Of War]

Yet the $5m the Bulldogs got to redevelop Belmore into their training facilities and trial venue is yet to be mentioned by you. Absolutely no benefit to the community there apart from the occasional soccer match. All it did was give one of the NRL's richest clubs brand spanking new training facilities and all it cost them was a lazy $500k

http://www.canterbury.nsw.gov.au/resources/documents/Redev-Belm-Sports-Bus.pdf

Bulldogs NSW Cup and age rep teams play out of there and Sydney Olympic play out of there. It is not like there are heaps of grounds that hold 10K that are available for different events in the area.

Not to mention that's money going into the local community in that area, as otherwise we would still be training at homebush. As well their is a Community Function Room which can be used. As well I think that is only stage 1, stage 2 was to get a pool made, that could also be used by the community.

As well, the other option was to knock it down, cause no real money had been put into the joint for years. That still would have cost a pretty penny, and the community would have lost one of the few things like this they have.

 

[ek999]

Most of the money that went into the redevelopment was for facilities that were for the Bulldogs use only. NSW Cup and rep teams and Sydney Olympic could continue to play out of there with the upgrades to the change rooms and grandstands only. The upgrades to the function rooms was a paint job and new carpets. The majority of the $5 mil from the government went to the training and admin facilities. The council's $500k would have been about the amount needed to fix the grandstand and change rooms.

I've got no problem with the Belmore redevelopment and I think having the Bulldogs based in Belmore is a real boost for the community. I was just pointing out that El Diablo is complaining about the government providing $10 mil towards a new facility in Melbourne which will house 4 seperate charities that all provide valuable services to the community but fails to mention that an NRL club gets $5 mil for a new training base

 

[El Diablo]

they give a lot more than bloody $10million

 

[Garbler]

Looking at the big picture, Labor have done pretty well over the last few years.

I agree. Labor have done pretty well to manage an expected $10-20 billion deficit from a world-leading economy. Great job! Guess saving for a rainy day never entered the minds of the European or US governments either. (By the way total government debt has been estimated at $415 Billion. Mostly foreign owned.)

Europe is broke and has something like 12% unemployment. The USA is going s**t.

How do u think they got to where they are. Why are countries crippled by debt? This might just be too simple to grasp but could it be that countries were living beyond their means, spending money they didn't have to fund a dual welfare/warfare state? At some point the creditors come knocking. And their not just after the money you borrowed. They want a f___ load of interest too.

It's probably a sign of how much time and money Australians have right now compared to the rest of the world that people are suggesting that this issue will have a political effect

No, it is a (another) sign of current government's incompetence. Did the U.S. cancel the Super Bowl cause their citizens didn't have enough money or the time since they were too busy trying to solve the fiscal cliff crisis? No they left to the politicians to maintain their spending habit and raise the debt ceiling for them. We love our nanny states. No one wants responsibility. Yuck! Easier to give angry when you can't buy the latest xbox because the baby bonus was taken away.

I think one of the reasons people are upset about this is because the NRL has appeared to have been so lax in it's drug testing over the years… I think that is part of the reason that some footy fans aren't taking this very well - either they are genuinely shocked to think that players take drugs or are shocked that the authorities (not the NRL or ARLC) have decided to do something.

Yeah i think your way off the mark there. Pretty sure no is shocked that professional athletes - representatives of big business, with big money on the line, as well as their careers and the jobs of countless others - would be pushing the boundaries as far as getting the optimum performance out of their bodies, and from time to time lines would be crossed. If you actually payed attention to the critics of the investigation, you would probably see other reoccurring themes:

1. Number 1 we are footy fans and we don't want to watch our national competition compromised by unnecessary government interference (which is what we have when the Sharks complain their performance has be effected).
2. ASADA started the media circus with their press conference - and their methods and timing have left many questioning their competence to conduct such a high stakes investigation
3. There are serious allegations made against ASADA moving the goal posts as to what is and isn't allowed.
4. Government clearly likes funding AFL initiatives, and there is definitely some smoke surrounding this investigation and the AFL.
5. To a lesser degree this: Given the gloomy global economic outlook you so accurately described earlier - big spending & big debts by big government makes people nervous. And ASADA wants more funding, despite not proving they could handle what they already had.

 

[magpie4ever]

I agree. Labor have done pretty well to manage an expected $10-20 billion deficit from a world-leading economy. Great job! Guess saving for a rainy day never entered the minds of the European or US governments either. (By the way total government debt has been estimated at $415 Billion. Mostly foreign owned.)



How do u think they got to where they are. Why are countries crippled by debt? This might just be too simple to grasp but could it be that countries were living beyond their means, spending money they didn't have to fund a dual welfare/warfare state? At some point the creditors come knocking. And their not just after the money you borrowed. They want a f___ load of interest too.



No, it is a (another) sign of current government's incompetence. Did the U.S. cancel the Super Bowl cause their citizens didn't have enough money or the time since they were too busy trying to solve the fiscal cliff crisis? No they left to the politicians to maintain their spending habit and raise the debt ceiling for them. We love our nanny states. No one wants responsibility. Yuck! Easier to give angry when you can't buy the latest xbox because the baby bonus was taken away.



Yeah i think your way off the mark there. Pretty sure no is shocked that professional athletes - representatives of big business, with big money on the line, as well as their careers and the jobs of countless others - would be pushing the boundaries as far as getting the optimum performance out of their bodies, and from time to time lines would be crossed. If you actually payed attention to the critics of the investigation, you would probably see other reoccurring themes:

1. Number 1 we are footy fans and we don't want to watch our national competition compromised by unnecessary government interference (which is what we have when the Sharks complain their performance has be effected).
2. ASADA started the media circus with their press conference - and their methods and timing have left many questioning their competence to conduct such a high stakes investigation
3. There are serious allegations made against ASADA moving the goal posts as to what is and isn't allowed.
4. Government clearly likes funding AFL initiatives, and there is definitely some smoke surrounding this investigation and the AFL.
5. To a lesser degree this: Given the gloomy global economic outlook you so accurately described earlier - big spending & big debts by big government makes people nervous. And ASADA wants more funding, despite not proving they could handle what they already had.

Of the estimated $415 billion debt in the article - the States (and other semi-govt: councils) hold just under 50%.

Question: How should have the Feds have handled the GFC crisis; if not by a fiscal stimulus? Allow the country to fall into recession but preserve a budget surplus or balanced budget!

Highlighted: all personal opinion, not facts.

How do you handle a "drugs" inquiry without possibly compromising the comp - ignore it and allow the drug cheats to continue or investigate without fear or favour.

 

[magpie4ever]

they give a lot more than bloody $10million

Not really an answer to how you question the grant to the PIES but not mention the $5m to the Doggies.

 

[El Diablo]

i never brought up that

i have mentioned how Labor has given much larger amounts

 

[drago brelli]

1. Number 1 we are footy fans and we don't want to watch our national competition compromised by unnecessary government interference (which is what we have when the Sharks complain their performance has be effected).
2. ASADA started the media circus with their press conference - and their methods and timing have left many questioning their competence to conduct such a high stakes investigation
3. There are serious allegations made against ASADA moving the goal posts as to what is and isn't allowed.
4. Government clearly likes funding AFL initiatives, and there is definitely some smoke surrounding this investigation and the AFL.
Point 1. I don't think Cronulla are all the important to the Government. The Government have their hands full with Gonski and assylum seekers....etc.....etc
Point 2 is wrong. The Australian Crime Commission (John Lawler) called the press conference and told Lundy, Clare and the heads of the leading codes to be present.
Point 3...not sure what you are on about there.
Point 4 Pure speculation and a bit conspiratorial. That what happens when no facts are released.

 

[Garbler]

Question: How should have the Feds have handled the GFC crisis; if not by a fiscal stimulus? Allow the country to fall into recession but preserve a budget surplus or balanced budget!

Its a bit of a false dilemma your presented there - but who cares how I think they should have handled it. Even my wife can't stand my rants. Lets not stray too far off topic...

How do you handle a "drugs" inquiry without possibly compromising the comp - ignore it and allow the drug cheats to continue or investigate without fear or favour.

How about for starters conducting an investigation not through the media? You know with evidence finding and actual interviews...

 

[magpie4ever]

Its a bit of a false dilemma your presented there - but who cares how I think they should have handled it. Even my wife can't stand my rants. Lets not stray too far off topic...



How about for starters conducting an investigation not through the media? You know with evidence finding and actual interviews...

That is how ASADA has handled it - they have rarely released any official statement or comment. They have gone about the investigation, in their own time, with no comment.

The actual media jurnos have run their personal opinion pieces by innuendo and accepting second hand comments as facts - they are the real disgrace.

 

[Garbler]

Point 1. I don't think Cronulla are all the important to the Government. The Government have their hands full with Gonski and assylum seekers....etc.....etc
Point 2 is wrong. The Australian Crime Commission (John Lawler) called the press conference and told Lundy, Clare and the heads of the leading codes to be present.
Point 3...not sure what you are on about there.
Point 4 Pure speculation and a bit conspiratorial. That what happens when no facts are released.

Point 1.
I use government as an umbrella term to also refer to government statutory authorities not just the Federal government :sarcasm:

Point 2.
Sorry I have confused my statutory authorities; replace ASADA with ACC.

Point 3.
Allegations by Dank & that Gazelle guy that they consulted with ASADA on their usage.

Point 4.
ASADA counsel, John Marshall SC resigned after giving different advice to the AFL than the one he gave NRL regarding sanctions.