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OT: Current Affairs and Politics

eels_fan

First Grade
Messages
7,583
The only difference here is that it will be enshrined in the constitution, so there can be no shenanigans by future governments.
what about the shenanigans by the current government?
Should we recognise Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the Constitution, with a Voice to Parliament?
Should be 2 separate questions. The bolded part of your statement would be accepting by i think 95% of the population. The second part is the dubious, wishy-washy, un-proven and therefore disagreeable part and why the referendum is just a massive cost-wasting measure at a time when cost of living is a far more serious problem in this country than division on cultural or racial lines.

Just like the last referendum on the republic debate, which was destined for failure from the beginning because the architects of the republic debate couldnt agree on or put forward a serious and logical process for electing a future head of state

It's just a money-wasting initiative for Albo so in his re-election campaign in a couple of years he can try to win over marginal voters with "i tried".
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,703
what about the shenanigans by the current government?

Should be 2 separate questions. The bolded part of your statement would be accepting by i think 95% of the population. The second part is the dubious, wishy-washy, un-proven and therefore disagreeable part and why the referendum is just a massive cost-wasting measure at a time when cost of living is a far more serious problem in this country than division on cultural or racial lines.

Just like the last referendum on the republic debate, which was destined for failure from the beginning because the architects of the republic debate couldnt agree on or put forward a serious and logical process for electing a future head of state

It's just a money-wasting initiative for Albo so in his re-election campaign in a couple of years he can try to win over marginal voters with "i tried".
No, it's a simple centralizing of advice. Indigenous people deserve to be heard about matters which pertain to their lives. They have no veto power. No power to start or finish anything. No legislative power. No power to raise or spend money. It just gives them an opportunity to be heard. Really heard this time.


As far as a waste of money is concerned, $300m is nothing compared to some of the big fish.

Why not switch your focus to fossil fuel subsidies to mining companies, many of whom pay no tax ? How much per year in diesel subsidies ? $7 billion.

Andrew Forrest (Fortescue) reckons they should. The mining lobby says nah.

 
Messages
11,811
Yep, it gives indigenous people a way to agree on a collectively representative body (rather than the current batch of separated and unevenly spread pseudo-representative groups) which can then be easily consulted by government to obtain one view/advice whenever needed or desired.

Simple. Let's get it done without over complicating it, or being divided by Dutton (and Sky News etc) and their fear tactics.
 

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
17,375
Why would the Voice body achieve any different outcomes than any previous body though?

No one needs to really answer this, it's rhetorical. I already know the answer. It won't.
 
Messages
11,811
Just a thought (that probably won't be in articles etc) on that - what it might do is end up enhancing inclusiveness among aboriginal and torres strait islander peoples? Who have previously been encouraged to set up the separate land councils etc, which sometimes have very competing views around things (such as mining on traditional land etc) when consulted in the different regions.

A Voice body, while respecting different viewpoints, may actually bring some unity to the views of indigenous people and their range representatives, when faced with the task of providing official advice to government on issues re law/policy, when requested.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,703
Why would the Voice body achieve any different outcomes than any previous body though?

No one needs to really answer this, it's rhetorical. I already know the answer. It won't.
Which body ? What outcome ? So every new issue we form a new body ? OK. Seems clunky. How do we know that these bodies were actually being heard ?

Hey, what if we created a centralized body who could advise on all matters and provide an avenue for them to provide advice to the Federal Parliament about laws and policies, through a consultative policy making process that delivers meaningful structural change.

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Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
17,375
Which body ? What outcome ? So every new issue we form a new body ? OK. Seems clunky. How do we know that these bodies were actually being heard ?

Hey, what if we created a centralized body who could advise on all matters and provide an avenue for them to provide advice to the Federal Parliament about laws and policies, through a consultative policy making process that delivers meaningful structural change.

View attachment 78958
All a Voice body would do is formalise the Indigenous lobbying industry. To suggest that there isn't already Indigenous lobbying that provides input (i.e. its Voice) to the Government of the day is ridiculous.

The actual Voice body will just be the same Indigenous lobbyists who already provide the same advice to the Government of the day. Why would their advice change outcomes for Indigenous people in remote Australia, if it is just the same people providing the advice?

Why would individual Indigenous lobbyists neccessarily suddenly all agree on the same thing if they don't now?
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
62,867
their quality across the board is excellent as I don't just deal with one company

No it isn't. They produce heaps of rubbish. You want to see some of the garbage tools available at bunnings or electrical products like Arlec.
I'd say majority of their stuff that isn't an overseas company y set up their is garbage including cars and dirt bikes.
Some of their products like an ANKO cup or ceramic bowl from K mart is ok quality. But how do you f**k that up?

What exactly are you ever purchasing? Straw hats?
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
62,867
I'm undecided what way I'll vote.The selfish part of me just doesn't even care a whole lot. Perhaps it means a lot more to others and I should be more considerate. But I just haven't been programmed that way. I like to TAKE.
I feel like if it's a NO then in 5yrs we will be doing the same thing again untill it is a YES.
 

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
17,375
I'm undecided what way I'll vote.The selfish part of me just doesn't even care a whole lot. Perhaps it means a lot more to others
I'm a bit the same way, although I'm unlikely to vote No or Yes, for both completely different reasons. It's also nothing that is really going to impact me the result either way.

In reality, where I live, my vote doesn't actually count anyway. Ironically, either does the vote of the people in the area with the highest proportion of people who the vote is meant to be for.
 
Messages
11,811
All a Voice body would do is formalise the Indigenous lobbying industry. To suggest that there isn't already Indigenous lobbying that provides input (i.e. its Voice) to the Government of the day is ridiculous.
But it's very fractuous and unrepresentative. A collective body is much better, for many reasons.
 
Messages
11,811
Why would individual Indigenous lobbyists neccessarily suddenly all agree on the same thing if they don't now?
They won't, but they will have to play ball in a collective representative body to respond with (majority rules) advice when requested - rather than the current situation which is dominated by those lobbyists that make the most noise, or curry the most favour etc.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,703
All a Voice body would do is formalise the Indigenous lobbying industry. To suggest that there isn't already Indigenous lobbying that provides input (i.e. its Voice) to the Government of the day is ridiculous.

The actual Voice body will just be the same Indigenous lobbyists who already provide the same advice to the Government of the day. Why would their advice change outcomes for Indigenous people in remote Australia, if it is just the same people providing the advice?

Why would individual Indigenous lobbyists neccessarily suddenly all agree on the same thing if they don't now?

Nobody suggested anything - so nothing is ridiculous.

Your questions seem to be common, along with the "there are no details".


6. Don’t Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people already have lots of ‘voices’ to government and parliament?​

No. There is currently no representative body to provide, in a nationally coordinated way, the government and parliament with the views and experience of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who will be affected by their decisions.

To the extent there are other Indigenous organisations working with government and parliament, the Voice will complement, not detract, from their work. For instance, peak service organisations working in areas such as health, education and law, offer important Indigenous specific services and advice to government in service delivery, they are not representative.

And while there may be more Aboriginal parliamentarians than ever – and this should be celebrated – these individuals do not primarily represent Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. They are party members bound by party policy, or individual MPs, who represent the whole of their constituencies. Further, Indigenous representation in the parliament is not guaranteed – it will rise and fall depending on party selection, and election results.

Finally, while individual traditional owners might be able to negotiate land claims and native title rights with government, they do not have a nationally representative voice to speak to parliament and government in a coordinated way about the laws and policies that will apply to these negotiations. There is no one to make sure the rules of the game are fair.

 

eels_fan

First Grade
Messages
7,583
There is larger indigenous representation in parliament and across government levels than many other minority groups. The assertion they haven’t, or don’t currently, have a voice is rubbish.
 

bazza

Immortal
Messages
30,963
Let’s start with identifying why 60%+ of the funds and grants given to organisations/community groups etc to help aboriginal communities with health care, mental health, sexual health, alcohol and drug programs etc NEVER make it to the people that need it. That will make a difference more than any constitutional change
Perhaps representatives from indigenous Australians could advise the government of the day on why current funding for community groups is being misused
 

bazza

Immortal
Messages
30,963
It's just a money-wasting initiative for Albo so in his re-election campaign in a couple of years he can try to win over marginal voters with "i tried".
Albo mentioned wanting to implement the Uluru statement from the Heart in full in his election acceptance speech

Also if you are really worried about wasting money - you should vote "yes" to ensure that the referendum isn't wasted
 

bazza

Immortal
Messages
30,963
In reality, where I live, my vote doesn't actually count anyway. Ironically, either does the vote of the people in the area with the highest proportion of people who the vote is meant to be for.
Do you live in the ACT or NT? Otherwise everyones vote counts a bit more than in a regular election
 

bazza

Immortal
Messages
30,963
All a Voice body would do is formalise the Indigenous lobbying industry. To suggest that there isn't already Indigenous lobbying that provides input (i.e. its Voice) to the Government of the day is ridiculous.
yes - the current indigenous lobbying seems to be people like Warren Mundine who are afraid of someone else getting a voice
 

King-Gutho94

Coach
Messages
15,525
I still cant believe the leech that Joyce is got a 24-million bonus payout.

The whole board need a cleanout for signing off on it.

I only deal with Qantas domestically now after the f..k around i had to go through with a few years back to claim back some flight credit.

When i go overseas there are always other airlines that are just as good as Qantas & cheaper that will get you there around the same time.

I went to NZ in February & i compared the Air NZ and Qantas prices who had one way flights to wellington on the same day about 15 mins apart from each other in the morning. Qantas was 8:15am & Air NZ was 8:30am.

When i booked in october last year Air NZ was $420 and Qantas was $801.

Like seriously what idiot would choose Qantas over Air NZ when comparing those prices.
 

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