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OT - In these weird times

SpaceMonkey

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Ardern has worked very hard during the crisis and deserves praise.
However it shows the lack of experience within her government that she has chosen to shoulder nearly all the media duties herself and has been let down by those who should have stepped up. Winston, the Deputy PM, has been invisible; pursuing his own vendetta in the courts. The rest of NZ First and the Greens are likewise invisible.
One could be forgiven for thinking Ardern and Bloomfield run the country.

given that Winston has a habit of saying inopportune things at times maybe he’s been muzzled for a reason? Given that I’ve often heard stories (based the age/experience gap no doubt) that Adern is a talking head and Winston runs the show, if its evidence that she’s grown into the role and is keeping him in his place, that’s a good thing.
If Adern and Bloomfield are doing a good job with the communication then I’m happy for them to continue as the face of the operation. Less mouths means less mixed messages, which means more certainly for people.
i also saw noted that in an international story on her that Adern has a communications degree, so I guess it might be an area she’s particularly strong and comfortable in and thus happy to personally shoulder the work.
 

SpaceMonkey

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I would add one caveat to the discussion about who is doing what in New Zealand's response to the pandemic.

In functional real time and day to day decisons the Science bodies from the Director General and the head of Civil defence down are running the country (It's an invisible concession of power from elected officials to experts in the public service where the unique conditions of a state of emergency have ended up seeing these advisors make recommendations that the government due to the circumstance and risk are compelled to follow).

All kinds of interesting things spring into action including special powers granted under the state of emergency which are designed to cut through normal parliamentary and court process's to enable the Govt to act swiftly on these recommendations, in other words if there isn't a law to support a given proposal the government can essentially write one on the spot.
We are leading the world in this regard by appointing a parliamentary committee headed by the leader of the opposition specifically acting as a watchdog for the pandemic response. We are unique in the west for having chosen a body populated largely by the opposition.

When Adern was asked after a state of emergency, who is running the country, she replied along the lines of, we both have roles in leading the country (she was referring to the head of civil defence).

But the lockdown and the nuts and bolts of it are at the recommendation of Doctor Bloomfield.

Of course as with other countries Political leaders have the choice to ignore the recommendations, but that's not what is happening in New Zealand, the parliament are using their power to follow the leadership through directives coming from the Scientific body.

To lock up most of the population you can assume the Science is exercising more power than any other body has in our history on home soil, more than our military.

Level three we are told by Jacinda Adern is being rolled out in a all embracing acceptance of a written report by Doctor Bloomfield.

Interesting times.

Quite honestly for all Aderns faults I think without her we would have been placed in harms way.

As for us being an island, dont forget the United Kingdom geographically similar. They have in the past during world wars shown with strong leadership they are well capable culturally of closing their countries down.

Singapore is the one to compare with, an initial excellent response, now in a worrying second wave of infections, if New Zealand beats Singapores response to this thing then yes we are world beaters.

Singapore was geared up for this thanks to previous pandemics, we were not.

If we make good decisions and stay with low cases then we are the leaders in this thing (along side Australia at this stage). The virus was everywhere in New Zealand and right on the cusp of getting completely out of control.

singapore has a notable weak spot in their migrant worker dormitories and that’s what got them. NZ should take note, backpackers and the seasonal worker accomodation in the horticultural sector could provide similar flash points.
 

sup42

Juniors
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singapore has a notable weak spot in their migrant worker dormitories and that’s what got them. NZ should take note, backpackers and the seasonal worker accomodation in the horticultural sector could provide similar flash points.
A point well made in a timely fashion as we see a case in Te Puke, Kiwi fruit country among a migrant working group.

The link of transmission in this case is a previous shared accommodation before that person went to Te Puke.

So far no transmission to other people sharing accommodation with this case, although the entire group from this one bubble of hundreds of workers is undergoing testing.

NZ has very long coastlines, there will come wealthy people from elsewhere if this thing drags on, who will try enter our country illegally.

Boat people are less of a risk because the journey is so perilous, but a risk none the less.

More likely some rich a holes will try sneak in.
 

SpaceMonkey

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^Te Puke was exactly where I was thinking of. Was visiting a mate there a few weeks ago who lives just out of town and we discussed the impacts the migrant community have in Te Puke, both good (great food, best place to buy Indian groceries in the whole BoP) and bad (some shocking traffic accidents involving van loads of inexperienced migrant drivers)
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
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9,476
Todays numbers are stunning.

Especially testing. I'm very surprised they managed six thousand.

I thought getting to five thousand was an ambitious target in four weeks, given that we stayed in the one K plus range for a while. We have needeld a three day extension to level four to allow for reaching five K, so an additional 1480 tests over that five K is astounding.

Going off the time it takes to approve new testing labs, it is about two weeks to train, audit, and approve two labs (that will be record speed). So in four weeks we have added four new labs to the national approved testing facilities).

This weeks start we were at four newly approved facilities, that's a fair amount of Hazmat training, new staff, new lab layouts etc.

Very impressed I gotta say.

Only three new cases which were already counted yesterday (arrivals from Uruguay).

So no community transmission detected.

In other words we are winning.

What's your take on how long the Level 3 status might run?
 

sup42

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What's your take on how long the Level 3 status might run?
It is hard to know with Doctor Bloomfield mentioning how the testing race works.
You have that five day window to catch the first patient then all of their contacts from the day they were first in contact the five day clock is running on them.
Presumably once you go past day five they become mega infectious.
Then the other race is to get the testing results turned around from test to result as fast as possible, and it looks as though they can do that with large numbers in about twenty four to thirty six hours at the moment.
It is hard to know what the gold standard is they refer to without them naming the time periods with testing they are aiming for, although today he said they were very very close, and I believe it with them hitting over six thousand in one day.

In theory though, if they continue to get negatives from sentinel testing (random mass testing to try to find Asymptomatic carriers in higher risk regions) for the two week period they should be in a position to go to level two with some confidence. Obviously you don't want positive tests from symptomatic patients in the community either.

This is because even if there is an Asymptomatic spreader out there, in two weeks they should be traceable by working backwards from the people they infect who pop up and present.

If they don't infect anyone, their viral load after fourteen days should be lowered enough so as to not present a transmission risk.

It does look as though Covid is well and truly dying out though because the R naught is less than one, so the maths is right where you want it.
 
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SpaceMonkey

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I had a test turned around in 19 hours in Sydney a couple of weeks ago- though the expectation they were giving was 48 hours so thats obviously what they're comfortable with being able to promise if they're at capacity. But I suspect the test analysis itself doesn't take long at all, its just the overhead of processing large numbers that takes time.

Re the level 3 timeframe- you'd hope if numbers keep trending as they are its 2 weeks as promised though I suspect it'll play out like level 4- they'll re-evaluate just before the initial period is up then lift the level after a week or so to give time to prepare.
 

sup42

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2,466
I had a test turned around in 19 hours in Sydney a couple of weeks ago- though the expectation they were giving was 48 hours so thats obviously what they're comfortable with being able to promise if they're at capacity. But I suspect the test analysis itself doesn't take long at all, its just the overhead of processing large numbers that takes time.

Re the level 3 timeframe- you'd hope if numbers keep trending as they are its 2 weeks as promised though I suspect it'll play out like level 4- they'll re-evaluate just before the initial period is up then lift the level after a week or so to give time to prepare.
How did you come to be tested bro?
Contact trace or you went and got one done?
Were you symptomatic? Or were u part of sentinel testing? Or was it work related?
 

SpaceMonkey

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How did you come to be tested bro?
Contact trace or you went and got one done?
Were you symptomatic? Or were u part of sentinel testing? Or was it work related?

in the days prior I'd been notified two workmates had tested positive. I hadn't been on the same shift but had potentially had indirect exposure due to surfaces/operating the same vehicles etc. Then I became symptomatic with a sore throat and fever, so with the combination of those two factors I figured a test was warranted. I phoned the testing centre and was basically told to come straight in as they had available slots.
 

Matua

First Grade
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5,248
A point well made in a timely fashion as we see a case in Te Puke, Kiwi fruit country among a migrant working group.

The link of transmission in this case is a previous shared accommodation before that person went to Te Puke.

So far no transmission to other people sharing accommodation with this case, although the entire group from this one bubble of hundreds of workers is undergoing testing.

NZ has very long coastlines, there will come wealthy people from elsewhere if this thing drags on, who will try enter our country illegally.

Boat people are less of a risk because the journey is so perilous, but a risk none the less.

More likely some rich a holes will try sneak in.
Yep, the migrants there would probably get it from Kiwifruit orchard owners who live in Papamoa and recently returned from overseas, who don't give a shit about social distancing because they're not in the at risk age group by two years and it's fine to have drinks on your beachfront property with your neighbours.

Yes, I may know some people who exactly fit this bill - aside from not knowing if they have or are spreading the virus.
 

Matua

First Grade
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5,248
Fortunately the states have shut down, probably in time to save them.

I feel sorry for the US and grateful I don't live there.
Bit late to this post, but some states had shut down long before Oz and NZ did. My mate in Seattle was sending me pics of their social distancing lines when I was still wondering whether it would hit here (Oz) and was bemused by all the panic buying. I guess it depends on what type of Governor each state has.
 

sup42

Juniors
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2,466
Yep, the migrants there would probably get it from Kiwifruit orchard owners who live in Papamoa and recently returned from overseas, who don't give a shit about social distancing because they're not in the at risk age group by two years and it's fine to have drinks on your beachfront property with your neighbours.

Yes, I may know some people who exactly fit this bill - aside from not knowing if they have or are spreading the virus.
Yeah I know the type.
I listened to the account by the woman who was Coromandels first case.
She did everything right from self isolating fresh off the plane, hubby dropped a car for her at the Airport, till she gets to the part of the story where she stops off at Whitianga Pakn save on the way to the batch. Starts having breathing problems, heads home to Aucks, gets in the Campervan her hubby has hired in the driveway and waits for the people in Hazmat suits to arrive.
She travelled before the lockdown to Coromandel. All through her tale she goes to extraordinary lengths to keep her family safe....but goes shopping in a supermarket.
The worst thing that could happen is if an isolated region gets hit hard. Health services will be overrun in five seconds flat, people will panick, Jafas in the case of Coromandel will clog the roads escaping, ambulances wont be able to evacuate patients, helicopter and
Deodar boat evacuated only.

People just don't think it through.
 

sup42

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2,466
Bit late to this post, but some states had shut down long before Oz and NZ did. My mate in Seattle was sending me pics of their social distancing lines when I was still wondering whether it would hit here (Oz) and was bemused by all the panic buying. I guess it depends on what type of Governor each state has.
I'm thankful my brother lives in semi rural California.
Main issue they have is empty supermarkets. But they're Mormons, so they had a store of food stashed for the big one.
 

sup42

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in the days prior I'd been notified two workmates had tested positive. I hadn't been on the same shift but had potentially had indirect exposure due to surfaces/operating the same vehicles etc. Then I became symptomatic with a sore throat and fever, so with the combination of those two factors I figured a test was warranted. I phoned the testing centre and was basically told to come straight in as they had available slots.
Thanks for sharing. Must have been unnerving with having symptoms and a risky link to actual cases.
It would be a worry if you weren't prioritised (given the symptoms). 19 hours turn around is pretty quick for a busy system.
 

sup42

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It's a good summary of the arguments against lock down, I don't think they have left out anything from what I read. For me there are some red flags in that letter which I'll get to in a bit.

The problem I have with the letter on the whole is that it assumes that the worlds medico scientific body woke up one day and decided collectively to commit a world wide conspiracy, in part lead by the World health organization.

Why would they do this? What is their motivation? What do they gain from panicking the world? making the world go bankrupt, and inflicting mass social harms? I haven't figured that one out.

How would you co-ordinate that? through media hysteria? ok lets assume a scenario where the vast majority of the worlds scientist have been heavily influenced by media in the fashion that climate change science is accused of the same media hyping phenomena.

Does that fit with what actually happened when Covid came along?

From what I've seen, in the beginning, exactly the opposite happened. The WHO down played the threat, and a great number of Scientists in the west initially tried to compare this thing to an influenza outbreak, (which is where the herd immunity argument comes into play as a non lock down strategy). Rather than overstate the threat, what actually happened was an assumption that herd immunity, as with the Flu, meant that a no lock down policy is probably ok, because we will manage Covid like a Flu.

I think the letter correctly identifies what happened in Italy as being a watershed moment in setting off the initial alarm bells. But it's not as simple as the death rate (the army trucks being full of bodies is real...you have to pause and wonder why that is happening now, and not every Flu season).
A key fact they overlook is that the reasons many countries went into lock-down was based off the realisation that COVID has a chink in its armor, which allows you to interrupt the chain of transmission. No such chink exists with Flu. New Zealand had the luxury of time to see this chink identified overseas.
Even with all the dead bodies in Italy, and the dire warnings, the majority in the west dragged their feet.

Bear in mind New Zealand had a herd immunity mentality in the beginning also. But the eventual Lock down was driven by changes in Scientific understanding. Our language changed from managing the outbreak to elimination. That's been verified by our top Scientists, that we changed because of the scientific discovery made in other countries.

One of the biggest red flags in the letters main arguments is seen in this comment:

"you could have some one tested positive for COVID-19 with zero symptoms and feeling absolutely fine, who is then run over by a bus. That person has to be listed as dying of COVID-19".

Ok lets forgive them for being emotive, and using a ridiculous point to make an argument and look at what they base this type of accusation on.

They use the example of Italy's death rates causing the panic, they argue that the deaths need to be separated because of peoples underlying conditions. They say Ninety Nine percent of people who had Covid died from something else.

Ok, here's how H.I.V, works. H.I.V never killed anyone. H.I.V. untreated as we know stuffs your immune system and you get Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome, thereafter you die from things like pneumonia.

It's still an Hi.I.V. - A.I.D.S death, because catching Pneumonia if you have A.I.D.S. kills you, developing A.I.Ds comes from having H.I.V....so it's an even less direct link, there are two phases to H.I.V. A.I.D.S. but we accept the end result as good science.

Another Flag for me in these debates is when people talk about Covid death rates, and Influenza death rates in isolation. Flu and Covid will not make way for one another, they will probably hit some poor souls in a lethal combo and there is no reason not to assume that this will prove lethal, no reason apart from a Lockdown and aggressive immunization in combination, may limit flu and covid numbers.

Another problem with comparing Flu to covid is this:

Flu in countries with decent Vaccination programs spreads with a slowed curve.

Covid as we have seen in the cases of say the big clusters, and in countries where it has got out of control, hits you with exponential force all at once.

Using the ridiculously high strike rate at the Bluff Wedding where nearly everyone got Covid, can we imagine a modern day example of a Flu doing the same at a similar social gathering?

Flu has pushed our health care system to max capacity in the past, You can only speculate what Flu + Covid will do, but some countries unfortunately will find this out.

Health Science works by looking at threats in combination when more than one threat exists, rather than isolating one threat from another when you're talking about a patients health. And the logic for doing this is undeniable.

For the sake of intellectual debates and statistical purity you can take this approach of isolating things to make these either or comparative arguments, but if the patient ends up dead, I don't think they would appreciate pure stats for stats sake in a post analytical way.

I don't want to create any hype or hysteria, however when you criticize the lock down, you need to take into account all the scenarios a Govt would be warned of by the experts.

One of those scenarios would be a worst case scenario. This letters Author to be fair did say some of their thinking is with the benefit of hindsight.

But if we are to fairly criticize the decision makers, then we cannot do so using hindsight.

One of the (Very unlikely) scenarios Govts would have been presented with is 'the worst case scenario'.

To get a hint of what one looks like you can look to the case of the meat plant in the US linked to eight hundred Covid cases. The plant is closed, and the CDC is investigating that plant in the fashion we imagine from the movies. They're on the ground, crawling all over it, in Hazmat suits.

This is an industry that would be factored into a worst case scenario, a supply chain.

To keep people from unnecessary panic, governments push messages like " We will not run out of food, there is no problems with the supply chain" they are telling the truth of course....but people have shown they panic none the less.

When these Governments were presented with worse case scenarios, Healthcare was a known weakness, supply chains would have been highlighted in the same discussion.

At the end of the day we will quite possibly get to see if this person is right.

Sweden of course has a voluntary social distancing policy (this is a whole other long discussion) and while not stating it is a herd immunity approach, in real terms this is what they are doing.

Sweden compares favorably to lockdown countries for transmission cases. Sweden however is seeing a higher death rate among elderly care home residents, the argument is that these deaths are somehow the result some bad luck with the virus getting in through the staff.

I think Sweden underestimated the threat from the carers who are not in bubbles in real terms, I think they assumed that P.P.E. and hygiene would keep Covid out. I think Sweden thought that isolating the vulnerable by stopping visitors, and staff using good hygiene would be fine. I don't know their P.P.E practices, but we have cases here in NZ of P.P.E. not working in this very setting.

When this letter quotes Sweden things were looking a lot better, and this is because in many ways Sweden is several weeks behind other countries in the curve.

I see the author referenced Fox News. Make of that what you will, but it is strongly associated with Donald Trump and Covid 19 denial.

Time will tell.

The long term is the hard to know part. There are still too many questions we need answers to. One of the main ones is whether immunity to Covid lasts.

But if it takes two years or more to get a Vaccine, even the lower estimates of death rates if Covid proves to be a year round virus rather than seasonal like the flu, will see some totals that are far worse than any Flu.

To be fair to this person, there is a compelling argument in the Swedish model. They assume that at some point when you come out of lock down you will get hit hard (possibly even harder). Whereas Sweden if this pseudo herd immunity works, will not face this problem, and will be able to function as normal.

That's a good argument in theory, if and only if, the gamble that immunity lasts is accurate.
 
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SpaceMonkey

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Sweden has a similar population to Australia. They have 3 times Australia’s infection rate and about 25 times their death rate. Anyone still using them as a positive example needs their head read. Yeah the lockdown has been rough economically, but it’s provided us with the best chance of being able to regenerate to some degree of normality sooner rather than later, so economically it may turn out to also be the smarter approach.
 

sup42

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Dunno if anyone here is old enough to remember the T.V. series Logans run...
There was a movie too. The basic premise of the plot was, once u hit thirty you're off to the knackers...for the betterment of society.

I've been reminded of the Logans run idea a lot lately.

Bizarre times.
 

Meth

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Hi @sup42 thanks for such a generous response. I know that I (and others) appreciate your educated perspective, especially in times when there is such a volume of contradictory and speculative information out there.
 

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