OT - In these weird times

[Rich102]

Also,importantly, about being alive.
Let's get rid of the virus and then get back to life as we knew it.

 

[Matua]

tithes are considered charitable donations as far as I’m aware. You’ve touched on part of the problem- the provision of religious ministry is in itself considered a charitable activity. So anything the cup hutch does to support that (building churches, pay8n pastors wages etc etc) falls under the charible tax exemption. The definition needs to be narrower.

Well that annoys me! The definition needs to be much much narrower.

Trouble, as I see it, is that the more businesses/shops are open the more people are out and about. Lockdown is about staying home.

Yeah, in Sydney in the last few days people are starting to take the mimi a bit and congregating in groups etc, so dropping down to L3 would require the powers that be to do a bit of enforcement.

 

[Meth]

Well that annoys me! The definition needs to be much much narrower.

hmm. I am not so sure. My attitude is that if there‘s enterprise (in the form of a quid pro quo), then tax it. I am all for stripping charitable status of organisations rorting the system, but I am not all for taxing charity.

If you don’t like churches, don’t give to them. My grandmother gives to her church with the expectation that 100% of it goes to them and I don’t see what business that is of ours or the government’s, providing the church is operating legally.

Also, I have to believe that the government is not afraid of getting offside with the church in NZ. Look at the legislation they are pushing through- it’s way more antagonistic to the religious than a tax. I would imagine that the government have assessed the figures and concluded that it makes fiscal sense to not inhibit the work they do in their communities.

 

[Meth]

I’m for going to Level 3. I think NZ has demonstrated restraint (generally) and should be trusted to maintain social distancing in a climate that is a little more relaxed. I am not in the camp that is critical of the government’s handling of this (and I am less enamoured with this government than most) Happily, the outcomes in NZ have been less catastrophic than many forecasted and I am happy that Jacinda et all get their share of the credit for that. But I generally feel like if level 4 is prolonged, when does it end? Sooner or later, things need to get going again and I think that it should be sooner, not later

 

[JJ]

I’m for going to Level 3. I think NZ has demonstrated restraint (generally) and should be trusted to maintain social distancing in a climate that is a little more relaxed. I am not in the camp that is critical of the government’s handling of this (and I am less enamoured with this government than most) Happily, the outcomes in NZ have been less catastrophic than many forecasted and I am happy that Jacinda et all get their share of the credit for that. But I generally feel like if level 4 is prolonged, when does it end? Sooner or later, things need to get going again and I think that it should be sooner, not later

Yep, but the NZ population deserve the credit, more so than the politicians who we should remember were desperate for the Christchurch memorial and Pasifika to go ahead... that would have gone well

The disastrous modelling is rightfully coming in for criticism now, the assumptions were vague and seem to be based on everyone being an idiot and health systems doing nothing...

We all (well aside from a handful of idiots) deserve credit here, and can be trusted to be sensible when things are loosened... Aussies too seem to be doing well

Geographic remoteness and a strong sense of community are imo the key things that have served us well so far imo .. the worry is that if the extend the hard lockdown people will understandably start to push back... and anecdotally that looks to be what’s already happening, more cars on the road where I am... driving places to walk dogs etc

 

[Matua]

hmm. I am not so sure. My attitude is that if there‘s enterprise (in the form of a quid pro quo), then tax it. I am all for stripping charitable status of organisations rorting the system, but I am not all for taxing charity.

If you don’t like churches, don’t give to them. My grandmother gives to her church with the expectation that 100% of it goes to them and I don’t see what business that is of ours or the government’s, providing the church is operating legally.

Also, I have to believe that the government is not afraid of getting offside with the church in NZ. Look at the legislation they are pushing through- it’s way more antagonistic to the religious than a tax. I would imagine that the government have assessed the figures and concluded that it makes fiscal sense to not inhibit the work they do in their communities.

I didn't say to tax charity at all, I'm unsure why you think I have? I don't consider proselytising to be charity, therefore a church shouldn't have tax exemption for that. If they run a homeless shelter than provides a roof and food to homeless people then I think that is fine, but door knocking to tell people about Jesus/Allah/Buddah/Yoda/Joseph Smith is not what I consider a charitable purpose.

I don't think a secular country should specify that the advancement of religion is a charitable purpose alongside education. Religion should be under "other matters beneficial to the country" so that there is a requirement above and beyond the rubber stamp religion to show why they're a charitable institution.

Regarding the politics, clearly the govt doesn't care (or is too scared) as in the Charities review carried out last year, religion didn't even warrant it's own discussion point despite it being the second largest sector fo charities after education.

 

[Meth]

I didn't say to tax charity at all, I'm unsure why you think I have? I don't consider proselytising to be charity, therefore a church shouldn't have tax exemption for that.

I didn't think that you did. You obviously don't consider the 'core business' of the church to be charitable. I do. So that's my definition.

Ultimately, neither your definition (of what constitutes a charity), nor mine really matters.

 

[sup42]

Nice thread.

I'm in early retirement for medical reasons.My working background has been across Health, Criminal Justice, and more specifically mental health. Risk management formed a large part of my former career. I trained as a registered comprehensive Nurse later in my working life, which was about twenty years ago.

I stopped working full time after coping one head injury too many at work (A natural consequence of slowing down and not being able to go with the young P heads in lockup, and choosing to do front line work when I could have stayed behind a desk). When this thing kicked in I was doing small amounts of work at home, but couldn't really cope with that ongoing.

Ironically I got a request from the Nursing Council to go back to work as a special category Nurse Under the Nurses act, which can actually order you to work in the same way the millitary calls back retirees (Dads Army stuff) and even though I was not in a position to do so, I still felt torn about wanting to respond to the call.
I did have a lot of experience in preparation for a global pandemic. This Covid 19 outbreak shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone in healthcare involved in risk assessments.

First hand the earliest foreshadowing in my career was MRSA. I was working in theater at Middlemore hospital, right from the outset it was called a SUPER bug, the idea that it was resistant to antibiotics was horrific at the time, extrapolate that idea further and you are possibly talking a lot of dead people. We now live in a post MRSA world and worse.

Next sign post was the HIV pandemic. That was pretty scary till we understood it better. Again we live in a post AIDS / HIV world.

I and many others have been waiting for an influenza strain that kills lots of people, and therefore places society under maximum pressure, for a long long time (you will see how this works if you study the so called Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918, it is always a question of when not if).
The only big surprise with Covid 19 imho is that it beat Influenza to the punch.

The other lesser surprise is how significantly inept politicians can place people in danger, I mean i've seen all the contagion type movies, and none of them even come close identify the biggest threat to the world i.e. inept and malevolent political leaders.

My sense is that Covid 19 poses a massive threat to New Zealand (sorry for being captain obvious) but that we have massively dodged a bullet by having people like Adern, Bloomfield and the long list of scientific advisors to the Government who are world class.
The threat is live though, so even if we achieve Nirvana it is still pretty hard to stay there.

The key thing in all of this comes down to our testing/contact tracing capacity. I'll stop ranting lol because that is a whole other post (which makes it very clear why we moved when we did and what's at stake with todays decision, and how close the the wind we sailed before lockdown).

 

[Rich102]

Good to hear from you Sup. Haven't seen you for a while.
Good luck for the future. Hopefully we may see some football this year.

 

[sup42]

I'll throw my hat in the ring.

I have been a pharmacist for coming up 18 years (to long), always an employee.
Loved Aussie ever since I visited at 15.
Married a beautiful Australian 13 years ago and have 3 beautiful children (all girls, working on the gun license).

This week has been extremely draining at work, it has been like 6 christmas eves in a row without the 2 day break with food, family and xmas bonus.
Phone calls are up 6 fold, scripts near doubled, in a smaller pharmacy so no extra staff to call on.
Luckly not to much violence when refusing to dispense more than 1 month supply. Had also been restricting Panadol and Ventolin supply before instructed by TGA (Sad most pharmacies saw $$$ first), so we have plenty in stock.

I've not worried about job security currently. But the robots are coming for a lot of jobs if predictions are to be correct.

A lot of patients I serve are in the high risk. But we have a mixed response from those really worried (around 20%) to those saying if my times up its up.
More middle age children are worried about giving it to their parents.

We legally have to complete 40 hours of continued education each year, most of mine I try to attend/learn GP level training. I've been consuming as much info possible to keep patients informed.

I am dealing with a lot of people thinking they have COVID-19 when they get a sore throat.

I try to explain we are looking for fever sore throat and a dry cough.
There are 3 types of patients
Patient A: infected traveler
Patient B: travelers family member
Patient C: unrelated to patient A&B

You need to watch for the patient C numbers in your area to become concerned.

In the area I live and work social distancing is a natural thing as we have space.

I have seen people wearing masks that won't filter viruses and N95 masks completely wrong, on correction still didn't get it right.

My side of the family is all in NZ, I am not concerned for my parents as they live on a farm and in good health. So are my brother and sister.

This is some of the scary modeling.
https://t.co/AwE2cHIbeJ?amp=1

Like some I wonder about the cost of inaction vs action.
Inaction (by above modeling) is a large death toll mainly over 65 with comorbidities and in 5 months it is all over.
I wonder about the debt the government will be in at the end of this.(18 months by the above modelling)
The burden placed on my childrens and childrens childrens generation. How the gap between the have and the have-nots will increase.
But government's are damned if you do, damned if you dont as their job is to protect their citizen.

I am also interested the protocols and protections that will come out of this all.

I know a public forum isn't always the best place to have a health discussion, but given your background I'm interested in your thoughts.

A lot of people have been asking me as a former Nurse if it is okay to take Ibuprofen, because there are rumors and also founded concerns about Covid 19 and NSAID use (I am aware of the literature re side effects and contraindications).

I tell them the obvious, don't take anything unless you have checked with your doctor or you Pharmacist.

I use Ibuprofen over the counter from time to time, but I decided to take paracetamol instead since this thing broke out.

I don't expect you to give specific health advice over the interweb, I'm probably more interested in whether you have had this question raised in your circles.

 

[sup42]

Good to hear from you Sup. Haven't seen you for a while.
Good luck for the future. Hopefully we may see some football this year.

You too Rich, yeah life stuff saw me drop off the League forum life.
Covid 19 has a general and specific interest for me, so I have been chatting in the threads with Warrior folk about it.

I think (even if you have some health training) that everyone's opinion is equally important in times like these, obviously it affects us all in ways anticipated and in ways not seen by health boffins. There is this tension between finance and health at the moment, it's not a new game, but the stakes are high.There is that thing where ones experience can work against them, and I try to be mindful of that as I view any aspect of this thing with my own very strong bias.

It's a rapidly evolving situation which I find myself following closely (probably too close) and like everyone else I can see ideas in this thread which I held at one point, but have had to adjust along with the rest of the world as we go.

Interesting and somewhat testing times for us all. I'm doing pretty good all and all and feel pretty lucky to live in semi rural NZ.

 

[sup42]

Very pleased with todays announcement, they've been saying contact tracing/testing is a week off full capacity.

Looks like we will eventually go to level III then level II in a proper time frame with tools ready.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Re the ibuprofen thing as far as I’m aware it’s only a potential issue if you actually have COVID-19, it doesn’t make you more susceptible to catching it. So basically if you test positive or start suffering possible symptoms, stop using it, otherwise don’t worry. And as always follow your GP and pharmacists advice.

I use it semi regularly more as an anti inflammatory than a painkiller so subbing for paracetamol doesn’t really work for me.

 

[sup42]

Re the ibuprofen thing as far as I’m aware it’s only a potential issue if you actually have COVID-19, it doesn’t make you more susceptible to catching it. So basically if you test positive or start suffering possible symptoms, stop using it, otherwise don’t worry. And as always follow your GP and pharmacists advice.

I use it semi regularly more as an anti inflammatory than a painkiller so subbing for paracetamol doesn’t really work for me.

ah yeah it sounds like i should have been much clearer.

There is no link between using NSAIDS and catching CVD 19.
The concern has indeed been around the potential side effects that can affect your airways, then adding Covid to that picture.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I think what’s currently happening in NW Tasmania is a soberng reminder for much of NZ, particularly the rural areas. NW Tas is pretty much analogous to somewhere like the west coast, pretty isolated and I’d guess people would have been pretty casual about social distancing thinking it was mainly a city problem. Doesn’t take muck for miners to explode if a cluster forms.

 

[sup42]

I think what’s currently happening in NW Tasmania is a soberng reminder for much of NZ, particularly the rural areas. NW Tas is pretty much analogous to somewhere like the west coast, pretty isolated and I’d guess people would have been pretty casual about social distancing thinking it was mainly a city problem. Doesn’t take muck for miners to explode if a cluster forms.

New Zealand's case distribution is all over hey. Even Bluff.
Well traveled citizens.
I'm sure there is a lot of we aren't going to catch it mentality here.

By the way, speaking of we aren't going to catch it, I see the US have had two meat plants hit by the Virus.

In other words if you ignore it, it will hit your supply chains.

Fortunately the states have shut down, probably in time to save them.

I feel sorry for the US and grateful I don't live there.

The suggestion that countries should experiment with herd immunity (the third world has no choice) isn't working out too well.

For starters all proponents of herd immunity have backed off and changed their tune after letting it run loose.

But the main reason that idea probably isn't very good, is that no one knows yet how long immunity lasts, so...you could get no gain and all loss from a herd immunity mass experiment.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Sorry, I feel like I'm interjecting into a real quality conversation here with some fluff. Sort of like a game of forceback at HT of a State of Origin, but nevertheless...

I am blown away by the ignorance of Simon Bridges, and what he posted a couple of days ago criticizing the response of Ardern and her government. Although to be fair, I did say to my mrs early in the piece that even though this pandemic is the last place where you want to start politicising, he couldn't help him. Just can't read a room, this bloke. He lost a lot of voters with that post.

I feel incredibly fortunate that we are not led by this silver spooned, charisma and compassion free character who might be book smart but has proven himself to be absolutely empty when it comes to human decency. I have no doubt we'd be in a worse position with him in charge. There are people who are alive today who would probably not be under a blue government. I get it that there's a balance between health and the economy. But it's laughable that Bridges cites mental health as a major issue if the economy falls over further, when he and his party wiped mental health right off the agenda in terms of the budget and made it crystal clear they had no interest in the mental wellbeing of NZers. And he couldn't even get the quote about 'the cure is sometimes worse than the disease quote right...which sounded very Trump-ist anyway. Such a piss poor leader.

 

[Rich102]

National won't win an election with him in charge.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

National won't win an election with him in charge.

Zero chance. But they won't win one with Crusher either. Nor Paula Bennett. They'll have to fight fire with someone with leadership qualities and the human touch, but with the necessary policy chops to placate the blue way of doing things.

The country is now used to having an empathetic, charismatic leader. A lot of the blue brigade will keep voting National because they're specifically concerned with the economy (and fair enough) but there'll be a percentage of them who will turn red based on the human factor of Ardern, her handling of the mosque attacks and this, and Bridges being a completely unlikeable person.

I wouldn't be surprised at the next election if Labour is able to form its own government, without Winnie and the Greens.

 

[Fufu Andronez]

The suggestion that countries should experiment with herd immunity (the third world has no choice) isn't working out too well.

For starters all proponents of herd immunity have backed off and changed their tune after letting it run loose.

But the main reason that idea probably isn't very good, is that no one knows yet how long immunity lasts, so...you could get no gain and all loss from a herd immunity mass experiment.

Sweden tried something like this right? Attempted to continue on BAU and now have like a stupidly high death rate or something. Sorry for being so vague but im just recalling the info from an article i read a couple of days ago