Peter Beatte NRL 360 - expansion

[Perth Red]

And btw Great Dane. Your previous rant ignores the reality that the AFL has 9 or 10 clubs in Melbourne and rugby league has 8.5 clubs . Sydney has a bigger population than Melbourne. And yes I've seen the dribble about what the AFL would like to do. But it's not happening. They know that existing established clubs are gold in market terms. Not just in Melbourne but Australia wide. They, like the smiling assassin's they are, will have you think what they want you to think and gladly watch the mess happen (reduction of top flights RL clubs in SYDNEY )Then picking up the scraps after rugby league has well and truelly lost the farm.

And some of those clubs in Melbourne are clearly not sustainable and have to be significantly propped up by the other clubs. The only reason they still exist is afl has achieved the capital city footprint it wants for the foreseeable future and has nowhere better to go to. It’s sold a nine game deal and needs 18 teams. If tv hadn comee to the party in 2013 I can guarantee that there would be 2 less Melbourne clubs by now to create space for suns and gws. They did it in their first expansion strategy and no reason to think they wouldn’t have done it again.

Sydney is over rated value wise imo. When you compare the tv audience for nrl in Sydney to Brisbane or regional nsw it fails badly on a per person ratio. We have massively under capatilised audiences in Adelaide, perth and on fta in nz that we simply must start to build for the future.

 

[Perth Red]

You just know this is stallion by the appalling lack of grammar!

The point being some have made more of there opportunities than others.

 

[tri_colours]

You just know this is stallion by the appalling lack of grammar!

Aah, a spelling bee Champ. I guess some are just better at some things than others.

 

[flippikat]

If there are lay offs in a business (a Good businesses) the most valuable employees and those with seniority are the Last to go!

Right, so Sharks and Panthers to be demoted to NSW Cup, or relocated then?

 

[Stallion]

And some of those clubs in Melbourne are clearly not sustainable and have to be significantly propped up by the other clubs. The only reason they still exist is afl has achieved the capital city footprint it wants for the foreseeable future and has nowhere better to go to. It’s sold a nine game deal and needs 18 teams. If tv hadn comee to the party in 2013 I can guarantee that there would be 2 less Melbourne clubs by now to create space for suns and gws. They did it in their first expansion strategy and no reason to think they wouldn’t have done it again.

Sydney is over rated value wise imo. When you compare the tv audience for nrl in Sydney to Brisbane or regional nsw it fails badly on a per person ratio. We have massively under capatilised audiences in Adelaide, perth and on fta in nz that we simply must start to build for the future.

Your Sydney tv ratings comment is interesting. As I also believe that the rugby league audience is not what it should be. A big reason for this is the carve up of clubs and the culling of clubs like North Sydney. Absolutely certain this has pissed many people off the code! But people like yourself can't see that things like that happen when you take away a clubs identity (Wests Magpies/Balmain Tigers etc)or the club itself(Norths Sydney Bears) from the Big League

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Meanwhile in Sydney three quarters of the clubs are in some sort of financial trouble, and the other quarter are being stifled by having to compete for the over stretched resources....

This is what i dont get...

It is totally within the ARLCs power to move/relegate a club, the only thing stopping them is the power of the clubs as a united block.

If the ARLC needs to do is split the clubs and set them against each other. And it is totally within the interest of the big Sydney clubs to do this; kill the competition, bigger market share for me. But either the clubs are sticking solid (against their own best interest) or the ARLC just isnt trying.

Im hoping Beattie will be able to get this done. The whole nature of party politics is building factions and stripping the others apart. A decade as leader, surely he knows how to get it done.

 

[Stallion]

This is what i dont get...

It is totally within the ARLCs power to move/relegate a club, the only thing stopping them is the power of the clubs as a united block.

If the ARLC needs to do is split the clubs and set them against each other. And it is totally within the interest of the big Sydney clubs to do this; kill the competition, bigger market share for me. But either the clubs are sticking solid (against their own best interest) or the ARLC just isnt trying.

Im hoping Beattie will be able to get this done. The whole nature of party politics is building factions and stripping the others apart. A decade as leader, surely he knows how to get it done.

Yes. You will certainly "kill the competition "!! The whole competition! !

 

[flippikat]

This is what i dont get...

It is totally within the ARLCs power to move/relegate a club, the only thing stopping them is the power of the clubs as a united block.

If the ARLC needs to do is split the clubs and set them against each other. And it is totally within the interest of the big Sydney clubs to do this; kill the competition, bigger market share for me. But either the clubs are sticking solid (against their own best interest) or the ARLC just isnt trying.

Looking at it from a different angle - as it currently stands, we have 6 non NSW clubs, 2 regional NSW Clubs & 8 Sydney clubs (being generous here, and counting St George Illawarra as a regional club along with Newcastle).

If decisions went to a straight vote (I know that's being simplistic, and often not how it happens), the NSW clubs have a clear majority.. and Sydney clubs have a very big voice if they stick together and sing off the same songbook.

Could fear of losing their majority be the key reason why expansion is always given lip service, but just hasn't happened?

2 more non-NSW teams, and that block has as much voice as Sydney.. 4 more, and it's a tie between 10 NSW clubs and 10 from other states/NZ. That profoundly changes the power balance.

 

[The Great Dane]

The point being some have made more of there opportunities than others.

What do you mean that they have made more of their opportunities than others?

This whole tangent is completely without context in the discussion at hand, and in of it's self means nothing...

I was replying to someone else. are you in the habit of quoting someone when you have no idea of what they are talking about?

That is how a forum works Stallion, people cut in and out of the discussion as they please, if you don't like that then a forum isn't the place for you..

As for Cronulla , West Tigers and Many. them, there connections , and there geography is better than most. As is there seniority.

Their bank accounts and their individual value to the competition disagree with you assessment...

I mean how are you even defining 'seniority' in this context? The age of the club, their amount of political power, something else, in this context seniority is a very vague statement.

Also their geography is terrible, apart from NS every major sub-market in Sydney has multiple NRL teams, they're basically all on top of each other. It'd be a bit like if there was a street with two different McDonald's franchises right next to each other... That isn't good for either cause their main competition becomes the other McDonald's.

 

[The Great Dane]

This is what i dont get...

It is totally within the ARLCs power to move/relegate a club, the only thing stopping them is the power of the clubs as a united block.

If the ARLC needs to do is split the clubs and set them against each other. And it is totally within the interest of the big Sydney clubs to do this; kill the competition, bigger market share for me. But either the clubs are sticking solid (against their own best interest) or the ARLC just isnt trying.

Im hoping Beattie will be able to get this done. The whole nature of party politics is building factions and stripping the others apart. A decade as leader, surely he knows how to get it done.

The ARLC are scared of the backlash (not only from the other clubs, but from the public, and particularly the media) and are waiting until a club has backed themselves into a corner and effectively has no choice so they (the ARLC) can say 'it wasn't us, we didn't want this to happen, but we had no choice'.

The Sydney clubs are acting as a block because the stronger ones figure that if they let any of the little ones take the fall that there's a chance that they are next in line... Realistically they aren't next in line, but fear makes people do stupid things.

 

[Stallion]

The ARLC are scared of the backlash (not only from the other clubs, but from the public, and particularly the media) and are waiting until a club has backed themselves into a corner and effectively has no choice so they (the ARLC) can say 'it wasn't us, we didn't want this to happen, but we had no choice'.

The Sydney clubs are acting as a block because the stronger ones figure that if they let any of the little ones take the fall that there's a chance that they are next in line... Realistically they aren't next in line, but fear makes people do stupid things.

What a load of negative crap discourse. You should be ashamed of yourselves. The disrespect is astonishing. But you are not ashamed! ? You continue on..... You are clearly dumb!

 

[Stallion]

What do you mean that they have made more of their opportunities than others?

This whole tangent is completely without context in the discussion at hand, and in of it's self means nothing...



That is how a forum works Stallion, people cut in and out of the discussion as they please, if you don't like that then a forum isn't the place for you..



Their bank accounts and their individual value to the competition disagree with you assessment...

I mean how are you even defining 'seniority' in this context? The age of the club, their amount of political power, something else, in this context seniority is a very vague statement.

Also their geography is terrible, apart from NS every major sub-market in Sydney has multiple NRL teams, they're basically all on top of each other. It'd be a bit like if there was a street with two different McDonald's franchises right next to each other... That isn't good for either cause their main competition becomes the other McDonald's.

Until you realise you are dismissive of the most popular rugby competition in the world bar none, the penny will not drop. You're commenting as if these great clubs and this great competition is in need of destructive restructure? You disrespectful sods! How totally ignorant!

 

[Stallion]

This is what i dont get...

It is totally within the ARLCs power to move/relegate a club, the only thing stopping them is the power of the clubs as a united block.

If the ARLC needs to do is split the clubs and set them against each other. And it is totally within the interest of the big Sydney clubs to do this; kill the competition, bigger market share for me. But either the clubs are sticking solid (against their own best interest) or the ARLC just isnt trying.

Im hoping Beattie will be able to get this done. The whole nature of party politics is building factions and stripping the others apart. A decade as leader, surely he knows how to get it done.

Doctor . You make good sense in other threads. Why are you proving to be the complete opposite in this thread? In other threads your comments are responsible and proactive. This thread it's disgraceful. You know better than to destroy the farm ! Surely?

 

[tri_colours]

What do you mean that they have made more of their opportunities than others?

This whole tangent is completely without context in the discussion at hand, and in of it's self means nothing...



That is how a forum works Stallion, people cut in and out of the discussion as they please, if you don't like that then a forum isn't the place for you..



Their bank accounts and their individual value to the competition disagree with you assessment...

I mean how are you even defining 'seniority' in this context? The age of the club, their amount of political power, something else, in this context seniority is a very vague statement.

Also their geography is terrible, apart from NS every major sub-market in Sydney has multiple NRL teams, they're basically all on top of each other. It'd be a bit like if there was a street with two different McDonald's franchises right next to each other... That isn't good for either cause their main competition becomes the other McDonald's.

I don’t spend a great deal of time on forums. But I would have thought that in order to quote another conversation you should at least be aware of what there talking about.

Sydney clubs are not deadwood – far from it.

Trying to make out that its good business sense to get rid of Sydney clubs and/or water them down (dilute there power ) is far from good business sense . It is, in fact, the reverse of good business sense.

It would appear you want to ignore the reality of the situation and focus on the areas that best suit you - negatives , stuff about pigs flying with butterfly wings and other fairy tales

Any expansion into non- heartland areas is going to take a good many years and large amounts of money before any results are shown . What do we do in the meantime????? We’ve got contracts with the networks to provide 8 matches each week – With expansion maybe more.

The situation at some of these clubs you mention is not nearly as grave as you make out. They have the support of established league clubs other investments and they’ve also have the backing of some very powerful people, with deep pockets.

Look, clubs have gone by the wayside in Rugby league previously as I am sure they will in the future. But anyone who wants to reduce or water down Sydney clubs is off with the fairies and /or does not have the game, or the fans best interest at heart!


So when you cut all this dead wood loose and water down the codes stronghold in Sydney You will no longer be bringing in nearly as much. As we have seen with the AFL it takes a lot of money to expand into non-heartland areas. Meaning any chance of expanding the game outside NSW, Qld and possibly NZ would be about zero.

 

[Stallion]

I don’t spend a great deal of time on forums. But I would have thought that in order to quote another conversation you should at least be aware of what there talking about.

Sydney clubs are not deadwood – far from it.

Trying to make out that its good business sense to get rid of Sydney clubs and/or water them down (dilute there power ) is far from good business sense . It is, in fact, the reverse of good business sense.

It would appear you want to ignore the reality of the situation and focus on the areas that best suit you - negatives , stuff about pigs flying with butterfly wings and other fairy tales

Any expansion into non- heartland areas is going to take a good many years and large amounts of money before any results are shown . What do we do in the meantime????? We’ve got a contracts with the networks to provide 8 matches each week – With expansion maybe more.

The situation at some of these clubs you mention is not nearly as grave as you make out. They have the support of established league clubs other investments and they’ve also have the backing of some very powerful backers with deep pockets.

Look, clubs have gone by the wayside in Rugby league previously as I am sure they will in the future. But anyone who wants to reduce or water down Sydney clubs is off with fairies and /or does not have the game, or the fans best interest at heart!


So when you cut all this dead wood loose and water down the codes stronghold in Sydney You will no longer be bringing in nearly as much. As we have seen with the AFL it takes a lot of money to expand into non-heartland areas. Meaning any chance of expanding the game outside NSW, Qld and possibly NZ would be about zero.

Agree with much of what you have stated.However I do feel the actual game of rugby league is much more easier to follow for a new market than the "scramble eggs" look of an AFL game. Would suggest that rugby league would be an easier fit for a new expansion area than AFL. I think it's time that rugby league could easily add a further two clubs without too much risk. These clubs ( Brisbane2 & Central Coast Bears)consolidating the code after it being weakened since the 1997 agreement which was regressive (except for Melbourne Storms creation. which has been positive)

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Looking at it from a different angle - as it currently stands, we have 6 non NSW clubs, 2 regional NSW Clubs & 8 Sydney clubs (being generous here, and counting St George Illawarra as a regional club along with Newcastle).

If decisions went to a straight vote (I know that's being simplistic, and often not how it happens), the NSW clubs have a clear majority.. and Sydney clubs have a very big voice if they stick together and sing off the same songbook.

Could fear of losing their majority be the key reason why expansion is always given lip service, but just hasn't happened?

2 more non-NSW teams, and that block has as much voice as Sydney.. 4 more, and it's a tie between 10 NSW clubs and 10 from other states/NZ. That profoundly changes the power balance.

Fair point, but i cant imagine too many times that this Sydney VS Rest dynamic would actually come into play.

Really the only time i can see that power-block being useful is (ironically) talking about expansion or relocation

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

The ARLC are scared of the backlash (not only from the other clubs, but from the public, and particularly the media) and are waiting until a club has backed themselves into a corner and effectively has no choice so they (the ARLC) can say 'it wasn't us, we didn't want this to happen, but we had no choice'.

The Sydney clubs are acting as a block because the stronger ones figure that if they let any of the little ones take the fall that there's a chance that they are next in line... Realistically they aren't next in line, but fear makes people do stupid things.

Yeh, i just saw Greenburg talking about the Sharks financial problems. It looks like he is setting it up so, if any team goes bust, they will be taken over by the NRL and moved...

I reckon they already have the speech written. "The club has gone bankrupt. Obviously the team cannot survive if they stay here. But we will heroically do whatever we can to save the team. That means moving to Perth/NZ/CC"

Only problem with this approach is that it doesnt allow much time for setting a foundation. The opportunity will come out of nowhere and need to be done quickly

 

[Stallion]

Yeh, i just saw Greenburg talking about the Sharks financial problems. It looks like he is setting it up so, if any team goes bust, they will be taken over by the NRL and moved...

I reckon they already have the speech written. "The club has gone bankrupt. Obviously the team cannot survive if they stay here. But we will heroically do whatever we can to save the team. That means moving to Perth/NZ/CC"

Only problem with this approach is that it doesnt allow much time for setting a foundation. The opportunity will come out of nowhere and need to be done quickly

Fanciful negativity doesn't impress or afford yourself any favours Doctor. I have never seen a more ignorant and totally reckless discourse pertaining to a very successfull sporting competition. The regressive nature of the discourse has not been divulged nor exposed. It's a recipe of destruction for a great competition that should be consolidating it's areas that are clearly underrepresented. Genuine expansion should come from a position of strength. This situation does not occur with your preference to look at "supposedly" weaker clubs. You just invite unrest and fan heartbreak from within the code. Along with losing neutrals that happen to be watching the 'disaster ' .

 

[tri_colours]

Yeh, i just saw Greenburg talking about the Sharks financial problems. It looks like he is setting it up so, if any team goes bust, they will be taken over by the NRL and moved...

I reckon they already have the speech written. "The club has gone bankrupt. Obviously the team cannot survive if they stay here. But we will heroically do whatever we can to save the team. That means moving to Perth/NZ/CC"

Only problem with this approach is that it doesnt allow much time for setting a foundation. The opportunity will come out of nowhere and need to be done quickly

Must be terrible disappointing.

 

[flippikat]

Fair point, but i cant imagine too many times that this Sydney VS Rest dynamic would actually come into play.

Really the only time i can see that power-block being useful is (ironically) talking about expansion or relocation

There's probably a concern that IF more power is ceded to interstate teams (even just a little), that power that interstate teams have *could* be used to push for further expension and/or rationalizing Sydney. Basically a snowball effect.