Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

[Cronulla_Mania]

El Duque....it is rather obvious that someone has transposed that image onto the building..just an example of some idiot trying to spread mass hysteria over this event
40 billion to seek out terrorism. Does terrorism have a face? Where do we target? Terrorism is everywhere, terrorism by nature evolves from people committing sly and secretive acts. It is hard to prepare for, It is even harder to seek out.
I was quite interested in Lord Ted asking the question about possible other countries/groups that may have had an interest in such an attack. The guilt of Bin Laden is questionable if you ask me. Think about it, the CIA,SS,FBI etc would have been all over Bin Laden a long time before these attacks. They would have spies, tracking systems and cameras everywhere. They have thrawted many of his attempts in the past to commit terrorist attacks. Point is, no one knew a thing this time. No intelligence, nothing at all. Something went drastically wrong. I just can't fathom that the intelligence groups would make such a big mistake. Which leads me to believe that possibly, just possibly...someone else may have been involved. Bin Laden has admitted to all the attacks he has commited in the past. He did not this time....Strange?
Groups that spring to mind? Well, im not real keen on pointing the finger at specific groups or countries, but im sure that we could all sound out a few possible targets...Main thing here is, there was NO INTELLIGENCE. This is the scary aspect of it all
I anticipate trouble this weekend. Sorry, i can't put it another way. I know have reservations about going to the match....Canterbury v Cronulla. Given the situation ATM, not many worse matches could've been scheduled
MFC.

 

[Willow]

Legend: This argument could go in circles forever. The USA also refused entry to a boat load of Jewish refugees in 1939 or 1940. They couldn't find a port that would have them and despite the statue of liberty, they were told to piss off. At the time America was trying remain neutral but did so at the expense of their own humanitarian ideals.

Are you now saying that it is right to meddle in the affairs of other states?
How can you promote a closure of Australian borders on one hand and yet say it's OK to interfere with other countries on the other?

 

[imported____]

I know this was a while ago in the discussion, I just haven't had the opportunity to read this up until now. About Nostradamus, it is more likely than not that someone has fudged what he wrote. There is no original because it was burnt in a fire but the books that followed could well be different due to changes through translation or even due to changes because failure to understand what he actually wrote. He is either a great hypocrit or someone whose work has been fudged, I say this because in some instances it is said that these events that occurred in New York would signal the end of the worldwhile in other instances he is quoted as saying that the world would end around 10 000 AD. No one really knows for sure what he said or what messages were actually his, also many of his messages are so vague you could tie them down to mean so many things so no one can be sure exactly what to infer from each quatrain. The best thing I can infer from all this is to leave Nostradamus out of it and let a cool head and common sense prevail.

 

[Vertigo]

"I don't think Americans are any more patriotic than most, maybe they just shout about it more than the rest. That doesn't mean they have more spirit. That message is just one persons view of all this."

No Gav, I don't agree with you at all. Americans ARE the most patriotic in the world, IMO anyway. You have to live there and see first hand, how proud and honoured the people are to be Americans. They love everything about their country.Travelling to the States for a few weeks,doesn't give you a true perspective of the countries patriotism and passion. They shout about it more than others because they have every reason to. Some might translate it to arrogance, but there is a significant difference. Arrogance is a 'gift' you develope ... patriotism is something you're born with.In terms of patriotism, they stand head and shoulders above all else. Before anyone attacks me for my comments (views), I've travelled to 37 countries of the world, and lived in almost half of them including the US and England over periods of time, and am also a proud Australian now living back home. You don't have to like the Americans or the American way, or anything American for that matter... but nobody can ever question the countries patriotism.

Recent events will make them more patriotic than aver before .... if that is imaginable. Just look at recent flag sales in the country over the last three days since the terrorist attacks. Up 800 percent. That's a sign of patriotism if I've ever seen it.Do I think Australia or any other country in a similar position (heaven forbid) would do the same thing? Hell no!

Questioning the patriotism of Americans is like questioning the British and its link to royalty. It's obvious.

Excellent earlier comments legend, and thanks for posting the comments from the other Forum.


Vertigo.

 

[G@v]

They only gave you a hand in the Pacific once it became obvious to them that it was in their best interests. If the Japs had left Pearl Harbour alone, it is almost certain Australia would have fallen to the Japanese.

 

[G@v]

Vertigo, I do know enough about the US to form an opinion about the place. I only spent a relatively short time there, but it was the nature of the stay which gave me a different insight to what your normal tourist would see. I don't want to go into any details about my stay because it is still an emotive subject.

 

[Vertigo]

Fair enough Gav.
Like you, I was just posting my opinion and experience on the subject, as I have many fond memories of the place and its people.
Sorry if I came across with the wrong tone.
Vertigo

 

[G@v]

Vertigo, put it this way. I wasn't intending to come back to the UK.

 

[legend]

Willow, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. As long as the U.S is taking refugees from countries such as Afghanistan and other countries from the middle East, it simply can not switch off the meddling in other countries and the situation in the U.S is slightly different to that of Australia and as long as the U.S is being asked for help and that interest coincides with the interests of the Western World, then America must do whatever they can to keep the peace. If America were to shut up shop and put the shutters up counties like Australia would be taken over in the blink of an eye. I am happy with my way of life and anyone who doesnt think we have America to thank for that, they are deluding themselves. I am happy for all the political correct and bleeding heart types to plead their case until the cows come home because at the end of the day it will have achieved nothing. Australia has laid its cards on the table and we are standing by the U.S in this and that is the only way it could be. There will be military action and I am all for it for the perserverance of our way of life. There will be casualties and that is regrettable but the U.S have $40 billion to spend to look under every rock to make sure this never happens again. If the U.S renames Afghanistan as the 53rd state, then so be it. History has shown us there has always been a dominant world power throughout the ages, if not the U.S then who?

I'd like for everyone to try and imagine their lives under Chinese rule or Indonesian rule and then think of how we live now. I'm sure you will all see the bigger picture.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

I think that Patriotism is a product of arrogance. Im sorry, but i have always felt that way. Im not going into a rant on American bashing at this fragile stage, but i think that people should realise that the 2 are irreversably linked....
As for your points Vertigo, i dont think you are born with patriotism. It is something that is taught, and something that becomes a part of you as you move through the experiences of life. Having pride and a healthy respect for your country is definitely healthy, but as with all things in life, when you take things out of balance, you create problems...
MFC.

 

[G@v]

The US economy is reliant on an open government policy with the rest of the world. If the US was to pull up the drawbridge and forget the rest of the world it's free trade style economy would collapse and therefore it's way of life would change.

 

[imported_Hazy]

Legend - dont take this as a personal dig - but I would like to think that most Australians have as much - if not more - national pride than Americans.

The main difference is our expression of it is a nod and a wink, not 'loud' proclamations.

 

This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.

 

[G@v]

When you talk of national spirit, I think of the British during the first couple of years of WW2.

 

[Willow]

No problem Legend. I think it took 269 posts to see the words 'bleeding heart' come up so I guess that record of some sort in itself.
I'm also happy with my way of life and I'm very grateful for that.

The US Congress have given Bush a blank cheque to 'do what it takes to rid the world of evil.' So you see, the nought any of us can do in any case.

As I said earlier, this thing will get a whole lot more worse before it gets a little bit better.

I make no apologies for trying to promote peace ahead of revenge. I'veexpressed my view and I can't see any point in further repeating myself.

On the same issue, I'd like to share with you an interesting quote from another famous American, General Douglas MacCarthur.
I think it goes something like:
"If we do not devise a more equitable system in war, Armaggedon will be at our door"

Anyway, I'vealways held the view that what happens on the field, stays on the field.
Catch y'all later.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

In reality, i remember having a discussion with you, Willow about this...under a week ago. I commented on how racial tensions were on the rise in many areas, little did i know that this would transpire from it....The tension has been building for many years now, as sad as it may sound, it was only a matter of time before the proverbial lid was blown off the bottle....
Let me further clarify my point about arrogance/patriotism. From what i have seen, America are looking at this from a 'how dare you attack us' viewpoint. They had a survey on CNN today, where the most common response to the bombing was 'anger' (48%). Way above the feelings of sorrow and regret. America will go on the aggressive, i think that is the most likely response.
The attitude of 'how dare you attack us' has clearly come from people who are openly patriotic and passionate about their country. I think that sanity and perspective are 2 things that are commonly lost when passion and overly patriotic attitudes cloud the view. I fear for what will happen, i guess it is hard to explain exactly what i am trying to say, but having such a passionately patriotic man in power such as Bush may have negative consequences....
Point is, the tragic deaths of possibly 10-20,000 people has been somewhat overshadowed in the last day by feelings of revenge and a lets get them attitude. Lets keep it in perspective. The death toll is horrific as is, mass bombing of countries will only worsen the human tragedy of this week...
The Fan.

 

[Eelectric]

MFC,

I have been watching CNN all day and while it is true that 48% replied in such a way it is a revelation that ONLY 48% did so considering the facts. IMO the US is to be totally commended. Instead of unleashing missiles which they could have done with total impunity they have refrained.

They have sought world support, which I may add they have got, to systematically hunt down and dig out terrorist groups. They are not attacking innocents or countries or taking out their revenge indiscriminatly as the terrorists have but instead are enlisting world support to rid us of this scourge once and for all. They are not launching a war but a campaign against terrorism.

I find it incredible that anyone can attack these ideals and thus support the continuing existence of terrorists. They, as any free country, have every right to defend themselves from attack.

 

[G@v]

No-one in here TMK supports the continuing existence of terrorism. Anyone who believes that terrorism can be stamped out for good is naive.

I can't understand any feelings of revenge which come frompeople who were thousands of miles from the scene's of these tragedies. All I can deduce from this reaction is an hawkishness by lots of armchair generals.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Eelectric, with all due respect, the time hasn't come yet. America have not responded yet, my fears arise for when they do. I pray that their response is tactical and well thought out. The point I was making is that some American officials have come out with comments such as 'this is war', 'they will pay' etc etc. I just hope that these attacks only target the cowards that committed these acts, not the huge numbers of innocent people that live in countries such as Afghanistan, Sudan etc...
I wish them every luck in eliminating terrorism. It has no place in society. My point is, I just hope that the people who guide the US through this necessary process proceed with level-headed and rational minds..
"They are not launching a war but a campaign against terrorism"
In reality, many US officials have already come out and made comments to the effect of 'this is war'. I hope this is not so...
"I find it incredible that anyone can attack these ideals and thus support the continuing existence of terrorists. They, as any free country, have every right to defend themselves from attack."
Im not to sure if this comment was directed at me, but let me say, i have said nothing that attacks the ideal of 'serving justice'.....Achieving justice in this situation should be a no1 priority.
MFC.

 

[Eelectric]

MFC,
With all due respect not one OFFICIAL has made that comment. What they have said is "it is an act of war". I have been watching the thing non stop on CNN. Don't confuse what ex-officials or journos are saying with what current officials are saying. They have stated repeatedly since yesterday that it is not just a US issue but a WORLD issue and there will be NO big strike and that it will take a long time to gather evidence and systematically search out teorrists. The said it was a war against terrorism and couldn't be fought like normal wars. This is what every leader in the free world has been repeating verbatim.

No, the last comment was not directed at you or anyone else, it was more a generalstatement in regard to all the conversation which has drifted away from how to deal with terrorism to whats wrong with the US. The US has it faults but there are many worse regimes in this world.

Anyone who believes that terrorism can be stamped out for good is naive.
Gav, that is your opinion, I don't agree with it and I would like to at least see them try. Even making it harder for the bastards may save a few lives. You keep talking about solving the root problem but I believe that to be naive,that is a legacy the British left behindin the late 1940's.