Rank the Brisbane bids

[T-Boon]

lets just make a note of which clubs "failed" during super league and yes, if you merged you failed

Perth
Adelaide
Brisbane 2
Gold Coast
Souths
Norths
Manly
Balmain
Western Suburbs
St George
Illawarra

You could add the Hunter Mariners. They are probably a good case study for what to do/not to do in Brisbane. Trying to walk in on a one team town the way they did (Brisbane is different because plenty hate the Broncos whereas everybody in Newcastle supports or at least likes the Knights). But if you throw something soulless together it can flop like the Mariners.

 

[Perth Red]

But it didn't represent all of greater Perth, just Fremantle. Its purpose was to unite fans from East Fremantle and South Fremantle. It's been pretty darn successful off the field for a club that's never won a premiership, wouldn't you agree?

Storm have been the most successful club in Australian sport in Australia's so called sporting capital, but they don't draw as many good crowds as the Dockers.

You and TGD keep on saying the next team in Brisbane must represent all of greater Brisbane to succeed. Dockers and Port Adelaide prove you both wrong.

They were smart in that they actually designed Dockers to represent two major groups; people south of the river (Perth has a real North/South divide, South of river population is over 1million) and the working man (as opposed to Eagles which has always had a white collar feeling to them). They were never going to just appeal to the people of fremantle which has a very small population.
Doesnt hurt of course that you couldnt, and still cant, buy a ticketed membership for the Eagles without an 8 year wait so if you wanted to watch AFL and follow a club live Dockers was your only choice! Even with all that Dockers have lurched from oine financial crisis to another until recent years.
I can see a bid that is not affiliated to anyone but has a focus on a large region of Brisbane. playing out of Suncorp with strong business backers and that will appeal to the people who dont follow Broncos being successful. I don't really see any bid like that at the moment?

 

[Perth Red]

Yeah but that bloke runs game...

No, the comment was from the sports media person, not V'landys!

 

[Perth Red]

PNG is successfully running a team in the Queensland Cup and draws massive crowds to its games. West Coast Pirates cannot even get one up and running at anything above SG Ball level.

They've had financial strife since day one and are only viable as the NRL is pumping money into them. Reality is a NRL clubs needs a self generated revenue of $15million ish a year, good luck getting that in a developing country!
Its good that they have a development pathway for their massive playing base, its a good investment by the NRL, but lets not kid ourselves that PNG can host a $25-30mill a year NRL club anytime soon.

"The NRL is mindful of expansion at the second-tier level so they have assisted us with whole of game funding to allow PNG to continue to participate in our competition, not through QRL funding," Maiden said.
https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/02/07/png-hunters-future-secure-as-qrl-targets-toowoomba-expansion/

There is no point in Pirates being in NSW cup imo, its a lot of money diverted from RL in WA and all the best kids from our SG ball are going to cup clubs that have direct pathways to NRL clubs. We couldn't hold them for a NSW cup side without them having a direct pathway here. Much better we keep building and strengthening the NRLWA comp.

 

[jim_57]

No, you're speaking shit and deluding yourself into thinking it's fact. Brisbane is a far bigger city, larger population, longer RL history. The population base of each BRL club would be magnitudes greater than any club from Canberra. If you want to know what it would look like, go look back at the old BRL finals. Always sold out or close to it. Donkeys got bugger all fans to their first game against Manly.

Canberra Vikings is irrelevant. Canberra doesn't have a favourite sport. It follows whatever is in fashion, whether that's the Brumbies or Raiders. Brisbane is rugby league heartland and no other sport comes close. Brisbane isn't Canberra.

I support Wynnum Manly. I would be willing to support a Brisbane Diehards team. Another poster on here from Logan said he would follow Redcliffe if they gained admission. That's two examples that go against your theory.

How many people under the age of 30 would be able to name you a BRL club from the glory days?

I lived in Queensland until my late 20's including Brisbane, do you know how many times I've heard people talk about BRL outside of this forum? 0.

Whilst I'm not against reviving brands if it fits and isn't too divisive, I would wager if you walked through Brisbane CBD asking people what they think of the 'Diehards' most would think you're talking about the Bruce Willis movies.

 

[The Great Dane]

What you are talking about is deliberately avoiding comparison;
Firebirds being new brand being owned easts.
Dockers has nothing to either south or east.
Port Adelaide is not new brand.
Raiders not owned by local club - may included some ppl connected to certain clubs but not extension of club.
Just saying you are right doesn't make you right... makes you something else tho

You didn't read the link I gave you about the Raiders history... If you don't like that link you could buy yourself a copy of Absolutely Bleeding Green by David Headon, either way is a good way to learn about the Raider's early history and the bid.
Whatever you do you can't demand evidence, refuse that evidence, then say there's no evidence. The Raiders history of being an extension of the Blues is well known, you trying to make out that it isn't the case just makes you look stupid.

I never meant that the Dockers are literally owned by Easts and South Fremantle.
However the Fremantle bid did start out as a merger between South and East Fremantle that was backed by the WAFC before that fell apart over, you guessed it, disagreements about the branding. The Bulldogs refused to support a team that would carry the Sharks brand, and the Sharks weren't interested in a neutral brand.
After that the bid was picked up by the WAFC exclusively who intentionally created a neutral brand to avoid the problems that the bid had initially had with disenfranchising potential customers.

Do I really need to explain that the Port Adelaide Power brand is a neutral brand created by the Port Adelaide club for their bid for an AFL license, and why they did that?

All of these are perfectly good examples of what people are arguing should happen in Brisbane so you don't get a Fremantle merger or Canberra Vikings style situation where a large part of the potential fan-base rejects the club because they have a disdain for the history, and baggage, that the brand carries.

The Blues/Raiders situation juxtaposed with the Tuggranong/Canberra Vikings situation is probably the best example available (that I know of) of what should happen and why, and any team that refuses to build an identity that can represent a larger part of their target audience should be refused a license on that basis alone.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

They were smart in that they actually designed Dockers to represent two major groups; people south of the river (Perth has a real North/South divide, South of river population is over 1million) and the working man (as opposed to Eagles which has always had a white collar feeling to them). They were never going to just appeal to the people of fremantle which has a very small population.
Doesnt hurt of course that you couldnt, and still cant, buy a ticketed membership for the Eagles without an 8 year wait so if you wanted to watch AFL and follow a club live Dockers was your only choice! Even with all that Dockers have lurched from oine financial crisis to another until recent years.
I can see a bid that is not affiliated to anyone but has a focus on a large region of Brisbane. playing out of Suncorp with strong business backers and that will appeal to the people who dont follow Broncos being successful. I don't really see any bid like that at the moment?

Every city is different, as you have carefully outlined through the history of the Dockers and make up of greater Perth.

For what it's worth I am not against expansion to Perth. I am pointing out that every bid will have its pros and cons. There is no fairy tale bid that will deliver everything from the get go. I don't care if a team in Perth averages 14,000 or 7,000, I'd rather have a team there so kids can grow up in WA with the aspiration to play RL.

Where you and I disagree is your belief that Brisbane can be serviced with just two teams. I don't think it can. I reckon 3 or 4 teams are needed to keep everyone in Brisbane happy. I don't care if they're getting 25,000 or 12,000. All that matters is rugby league is at saturation point and our competitors are locked out of the city. AwFuL, onionball and soccer would hate to have to compete with just four teams in Brisbane. Just having the Donkeys creates enough of a vacuum for these niche sports to exist. Two will make it harder but not impossible. Any more and they will not get any media or sponsorship opportunities.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

How many people under the age of 30 would be able to name you a BRL club from the glory days?

I lived in Queensland until my late 20's including Brisbane, do you know how many times I've heard people talk about BRL outside of this forum? 0.

Whilst I'm not against reviving brands if it fits and isn't too divisive, I would wager if you walked through Brisbane CBD asking people what they think of the 'Diehards' most would think you're talking about the Bruce Willis movies.

Probably more than can name Charles Kingsford-Smith, who is the head of the Bombers logo.

People who grew up playing the game would know of them. Their parents would talk about them at home when they talk about life before the Donkeys. They're not going to bring them up in convo at school or work for the same reason they don't talk about the Sheffield Shield or anything else that is out of sight. It doesn't mean they don't know if its existence.

The Diehards still exist in the BRL. A documentary was made about them. Do you think all that effort would have been made if no one knew who they were or cared?

There's a monument to them at the old Neumann Oval, now Allan Border Field. But just because a stranger didn't come up to you on the bus and say, "hey, you remember the Diehards?" doesn't mean you can say all 2.5 million people in Brisbane have never heard of them. They still have a strong and loyal group of supporters and bringing them back to the top flight would be a feel good story.

Easts, Souths, Wynnum, Redcliffe and Norths are still around. People can name them because they play for their subdistrict clubs, attend their games and watch the QRL game of the week on Ch9. I've seen plenty of people at the Q Cup games that were under 30. Kids running onto the field to kick a ball around at half time while wearing Wynnum Manly merchandise at Kougari Oval. These kids care. And for those who don't remember, once the team is brought into the NRL and its history is told, people will care. Name the long list of former players from these clubs who went on to play for QLD and Aus and it will add pride to the supporter.

Donkeys crowds were shit in 1988. They were shit after Super League. There's no such thing as a guaranteed winner. Any club that starts up, whether it is the Bombers or a revived and merged BRL entity, will spend a few years finding their feet,like the Donkeys did. That's how things go.

 

[jim_57]

Probably more than can name Charles Kingsford-Smith, who is the head of the Bombers logo.

People who grew up playing the game would know of them. Their parents would talk about them at home when they talk about life before the Donkeys. They're not going to bring them up in convo at school or work for the same reason they don't talk about the Sheffield Shield or anything else that is out of sight. It doesn't mean they don't know if its existence.

The Diehards still exist in the BRL. A documentary was made about them. Do you think all that effort would have been made if no one knew who they were or cared?

There's a monument to them at the old Neumann Oval, now Allan Border Field. But just because a stranger didn't come up to you on the bus and say, "hey, you remember the Diehards?" doesn't mean you can say all 2.5 million people in Brisbane have never heard of them. They still have a strong and loyal group of supporters and bringing them back to the top flight would be a feel good story.

Easts, Souths, Wynnum, Redcliffe and Norths are still around. People can name them because they play for their subdistrict clubs, attend their games and watch the QRL game of the week on Ch9. I've seen plenty of people at the Q Cup games that were under 30. Kids running onto the field to kick a ball around at half time while wearing Wynnum Manly merchandise at Kougari Oval. These kids care. And for those who don't remember, once the team is brought into the NRL and its history is told, people will care. Name the long list of former players from these clubs who went on to play for QLD and Aus and it will add pride to the supporter.

Donkeys crowds were shit in 1988. They were shit after Super League. There's no such thing as a guaranteed winner. Any club that starts up, whether it is the Bombers or a revived and merged BRL entity, will spend a few years finding their feet,like the Donkeys did. That's how things go.

I'm sure plenty of people would know the Diehards in Brisbane, plenty of people would know of Kingsford-Smith as well. My main 2 points are that the majority of the city wouldn't be that familiar with them and of those that are most would be over the age of 30.

Of the ones that do know them how many don't like them because they support other teams? How many have moved on to support other NRL teams?

I don't think bringing back the Diehards name for an NRL team is magically going to bring together all the "dormant" BRL fans and current QRL fans. Nor do I think a brand targetting nostalgia and people over 30 is a good idea for a brand new team.

Random people on the bus aren't the only people I've ever spoken to believe it or not

 

[Pippen94]

You didn't read the link I gave you about the Raiders history... If you don't like that link you could buy yourself a copy of Absolutely Bleeding Green by David Headon, either way is a good way to learn about the Raider's early history and the bid.
Whatever you do you can't demand evidence, refuse that evidence, then say there's no evidence. The Raiders history of being an extension of the Blues is well known, you trying to make out that it isn't the case just makes you look stupid.

I never meant that the Dockers are literally owned by Easts and South Fremantle.
However the Fremantle bid did start out as a merger between South and East Fremantle that was backed by the WAFC before that fell apart over, you guessed it, disagreements about the branding. The Bulldogs refused to support a team that would carry the Sharks brand, and the Sharks weren't interested in a neutral brand.
After that the bid was picked up by the WAFC exclusively who intentionally created a neutral brand to avoid the problems that the bid had initially had with disenfranchising potential customers.

Do I really need to explain that the Port Adelaide Power brand is a neutral brand created by the Port Adelaide club for their bid for an AFL license, and why they did that?

All of these are perfectly good examples of what people are arguing should happen in Brisbane so you don't get a Fremantle merger or Canberra Vikings style situation where a large part of the potential fan-base rejects the club because they have a disdain for the history, and baggage, that the brand carries.

The Blues/Raiders situation juxtaposed with the Tuggranong/Canberra Vikings situation is probably the best example available (that I know of) of what should happen and why, and any team that refuses to build an identity that can represent a larger part of their target audience should be refused a license on that basis alone.

None of them are examples but you seem like one of those people who are going to bleep on regardless. Irony is Port Adelaide you site would actually be like redcliffe who may need slight name & jersey change. However Port Adelaide rep a much smaller geographic area.
Got any more I can shoot down?

 

[Pippen94]

I'm sure plenty of people would know the Diehards in Brisbane, plenty of people would know of Kingsford-Smith as well. My main 2 points are that the majority of the city wouldn't be that familiar with them and of those that are most would be over the age of 30.

Of the ones that do know them how many don't like them because they support other teams? How many have moved on to support other NRL teams?

I don't think bringing back the Diehards name for an NRL team is magically going to bring together all the "dormant" BRL fans and current QRL fans. Nor do I think a brand targetting nostalgia and people over 30 is a good idea for a brand new team.

Random people on the bus aren't the only people I've ever spoken to believe it or not

Wanderers was name of first football team in local area before becoming a league name.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I'm sure plenty of people would know the Diehards in Brisbane, plenty of people would know of Kingsford-Smith as well. My main 2 points are that the majority of the city wouldn't be that familiar with them and of those that are most would be over the age of 30.

Of the ones that do know them how many don't like them because they support other teams? How many have moved on to support other NRL teams?

I don't think bringing back the Diehards name for an NRL team is magically going to bring together all the "dormant" BRL fans and current QRL fans. Nor do I think a brand targetting nostalgia and people over 30 is a good idea for a brand new team.

Random people on the bus aren't the only people I've ever spoken to believe it or not

I cannot speak on behalf of other people, so I will just give my thoughts on the subject so you can see my perspective. I am 35, born in Brisbane and live in Logan. I know all about the history of the BRL. I grew up watching it and the QCUP from the mid 90s onwards. My team is Wynnum, but I grew up in Easts Territory. I never supported the Fortitude Valley Diehards, but if they were the second team and represented all of Brisbane I would make them my NRL team and continue supporting Wynnum Manly at QCup level.

People under 30 who do not love rugby league like I do may not know too much about Valleys, but I fail to see how that works against them. Once they're made aware of the history of the club, that they are Brisbane's version of Rabbitohs in terms of success and grandeur, they will see them as a far more likable option than the Bombers. Throw in all the legends who played for this great club, such as Wally Lewis, and the fact their loyal fan base fought tirelessly to bring the club back from the dead, and they can build a narrative that strikes at the heartstrings in a way that a plastic franchise like the Bombers and Donkeys just cannot.

 

[Pippen94]

Every city is different, as you have carefully outlined through the history of the Dockers and make up of greater Perth.

For what it's worth I am not against expansion to Perth. I am pointing out that every bid will have its pros and cons. There is no fairy tale bid that will deliver everything from the get go. I don't care if a team in Perth averages 14,000 or 7,000, I'd rather have a team there so kids can grow up in WA with the aspiration to play RL.

Where you and I disagree is your belief that Brisbane can be serviced with just two teams. I don't think it can. I reckon 3 or 4 teams are needed to keep everyone in Brisbane happy. I don't care if they're getting 25,000 or 12,000. All that matters is rugby league is at saturation point and our competitors are locked out of the city. AwFuL, onionball and soccer would hate to have to compete with just four teams in Brisbane. Just having the Donkeys creates enough of a vacuum for these niche sports to exist. Two will make it harder but not impossible. Any more and they will not get any media or sponsorship opportunities.

This! If you look at top flight teams NRL & Afl are on same footing. Brisbane is strongest rugby league town in world yet only one main game a week. Creating space for competitors to breath

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

This! If you look at top flight teams NRL & Afl are on same footing. Brisbane is strongest rugby league town in world yet only one main game a week. Creating space for competitors to breath

What I don't get with all these people who are against Brisbane 3 and Brisbane 4 is they think a Donkeys clone is going to draw in fans who hate the Donkeys. If I have the choice Donkeys 1 and Donkeys 2 I will choose neither. I am the sort of fan Brisbane 2 is trying to attract, as I hate Broncos and have lived in the greater Brisbane area my whole life. TGD and Perth Red aren't going to support Brisbane 2, so their opinion ain't worth shit to the NRL. Do they honestly think the NRL cares what people from Canberra and Perth think about a team from Brisbane?

 

[The Great Dane]

None of them are examples but you seem like one of those people who are going to bleep on regardless.

What are they not examples of?

Seriously, you're so disingenuous and full of shit that I'm not even sure what it is that you think they aren't examples of.

Irony is Port Adelaide you site would actually be like redcliffe who may need slight name & jersey change. However Port Adelaide rep a much smaller geographic area.

The f**k are you talking about. They created a whole new brand you moron.

Got any more I can shoot down?

You haven't shot down any of them.

All of them are exactly what I said they are, they are groups or clubs that created neutral brands either because they couldn't keep the old one or because it was a bad idea to keep the old one.
In other words they are example of brand changes to appeal to a larger audience.

 

[Perth Red]

PNG is successfully running a team in the Queensland Cup and draws massive crowds to its games. West Coast Pirates cannot even get one up and running at anything above SG Ball level.

There is no point, all the best kids from our SG ball are going to cup clubs that have direct pathways to NRL clubs. We couldnt hold them for a NSW cup side without them having a direct pathway her

Every city is different, as you have carefully outlined through the history of the Dockers and make up of greater Perth.

For what it's worth I am not against expansion to Perth. I am pointing out that every bid will have its pros and cons. There is no fairy tale bid that will deliver everything from the get go. I don't care if a team in Perth averages 14,000 or 7,000, I'd rather have a team there so kids can grow up in WA with the aspiration to play RL.

Where you and I disagree is your belief that Brisbane can be serviced with just two teams. I don't think it can. I reckon 3 or 4 teams are needed to keep everyone in Brisbane happy. I don't care if they're getting 25,000 or 12,000. All that matters is rugby league is at saturation point and our competitors are locked out of the city. AwFuL, onionball and soccer would hate to have to compete with just four teams in Brisbane. Just having the Donkeys creates enough of a vacuum for these niche sports to exist. Two will make it harder but not impossible. Any more and they will not get any media or sponsorship opportunities.

Sydneys got nrl saturation yet it hasn’t locked anyone out, in fact the swans are arguably one of the biggest sports club in the city.
I think you’re being a bit overly simplistic in believing that 4 clubs in Brisbane would see the end of union and afl there. Not to mention the comp can only manage so many clubs, so for every club we put in Brisbane another city with no NRL presence at all misses out.

 

[Perth Red]

What I don't get with all these people who are against Brisbane 3 and Brisbane 4 is they think a Donkeys clone is going to draw in fans who hate the Donkeys. If I have the choice Donkeys 1 and Donkeys 2 I will choose neither. I am the sort of fan Brisbane 2 is trying to attract, as I hate Broncos and have lived in the greater Brisbane area my whole life. TGD and Perth Red aren't going to support Brisbane 2, so their opinion ain't worth shit to the NRL. Do they honestly think the NRL cares what people from Canberra and Perth think about a team from Brisbane?

somehow I think we know that giving a personal opinion on a message board, be it from Perth or Brisbane isn’t going to influence the nrl’s decision one iota lol
Ideally I think we’d all agree that a new club that can represent at least half of Brisbane metro region with a unique brand and a point of difference to Broncos, but that isn’t reliant on LC funding and doesn’t polarise the non broncos fans the club needs to attract, is the way to go. Thing is at the moment there isnt a bid that ticks those boxes! The local clubs bids are LC reliant and polarise fans who don’t like that club and the bombers are very corporate and non regional area specific, and have a sht brand. Maybe it’s just not the right time to expand to Brisbane lol

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

There is no point, all the best kids from our SG ball are going to cup clubs that have direct pathways to NRL clubs. We couldnt hold them for a NSW cup side without them having a direct pathway her


Sydneys got nrl saturation yet it hasn’t locked anyone out, in fact the swans are arguably the biggest sports club in the city.
I think you’re being a bit overly simplistic in believing that 4 clubs in Brisbane would see the end of union and afl there. Not to mention the comp can only manage so many clubs, so for every club we put in Brisbane another city with no NRL presence at all misses out.

Adelaide is never getting a team. Nor does it deserve one. Putting one there ahead of Brisbane 3 or 4 would be an insult to Queenslanders who love the game.

Perth probably isn't going to get a team either. So all you're doing is keeping Brisbane under-represented while your fairy tale of putting teams into Perth and Adelaide, that will need to be filled by players from Queensland, remains nothing more but a pipe dream you whinge about on here ad nauseum because the NRL has enough sense to not rubber stamp it.

You do realise how insulting it is to tell an under-represented city that produces many players and loves the game that it should miss out so some backwater fumbleball cities that don't care about the game can be propped up by Queenslanders who don't have enough teams in their home state to play for, and despite all of this, never be anything but a niche sport at best that most people in these areas know nothing about?

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

somehow I think we know that giving a personal opinion on a message board, be it from Perth or Brisbane isn’t going to influence the nrl’s decision one iota lol
Ideally I think we’d all agree that a new club that can represent at least half of Brisbane metro region with a unique brand and a point of difference to Broncos, but that isn’t reliant on LC funding and doesn’t polarise the non broncos fans the club needs to attract, is the way to go. Thing is at the moment there isnt a bid that ticks those boxes! The local clubs bids are LC reliant and polarise fans who don’t like that club and the bombers are very corporate and non regional area specific, and have a sht brand. Maybe it’s just not the right time to expand to Brisbane lol

Every Brisbane bid is a billion times more valuable than anything coming out of Perth.

You're very hypocritical in how you judge Brisbane and Sydney so harshly, to a degree that is impossible to live up to, but set the pass bar for Perth and Melbourne so low that you'll praise them no matter how few fans and local juniors they add to the game.

What you want from Brisbane 2 isn't necessary for it to survive. You're just going with that bullshit criteria because you know no one will meet it, thus you can continue to whinge. I wontdn't be surprised if you were worried that Brisbane 2, 3 and 4 would put an end to your Storm's success, as they will havo to find another well to draw water from. No more Cronks or Smiths for privileged Melbourne.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

No one has explained how the Diehards would fail. It is everything people want from a 2nd team. It has history and prestige that can be used to the club's advantage. It is the most successful club in Australian rugby league history and was forced out of existence by the Donkeys and NSWRL using Sir John's anti-poker machibe laws to their advantage in the mid 1990s. Its passionate supporters fought tirelessly to get the club running again 15-20 years later. It now competes in the relaunched BRL competition. A documentary was made about it. That's heart wrench stuff right there. They symbolise the working class, anti-establishment spirit that has been sucked out of the game by the likes of the Donkeys and Super League. It's even more inspirational than the Sydney Souffs readmission ttat was milked beautifully by the NRL.

By having so much history and overcoming so much adversity, unlike the privileged Donkeys, they will appeal to all of those working class kids who are for social justice and hate the system.

Game day at a Diehards home match could offer so much more than an outting to see the Donkeys. It could use the club's history in the BRL to educate kids in the audience about past feats of Valleys in the BRL. Club legends and relatives of former players who've passed away could come in to talk about how "on this day in 1973 against_______, such and such scored______ tries to lead Valleys to a__ -___ victory over_______. Donkeys cannot do that as they have no history pre-1988. A promotional video could be aired on the scoreboard showing footage where available, match day photos and photos of players from that era. Kids would love it as they would see a football game and learn about something prestigious that they didn't previously know. When they see pictures of people on the streets in 1983 dressed up in BRL colours it will make them realise just how big it was and how much it meant to Brisbane.

The next day at school, when Ms Teacher asks little Tommy what he did on the weekend, he will enthusiastically tell her and his classmates what he learnt at the football, spreading the RL gospel in a way the lousy Donkeys or Perth team can never do.