Round 9 v Tigers

[mxlegend99]

Hope this doesn't backfire on us. Cant afford him to re injure and be out for an extended time.

100%.

Imagine if he goes down 5 minutes in. Misses a chunk of the season and doesnt even play this game.

Not worth risking him. He's a huge loss... but considering other injuries and suspension ontop of our horrific form we really are such long odds to win that he's less worth the risk anyway

 

[Fangs]

Just a reminder, its 5 losses on the trot if we lose this one.

Titans L
Sharks L
Souths L
Raiders L
Tigers...

 

[Panther_Daz]

Nrl.com just compared the halves... and in a shockingly bad team he's statistically comparable to the other halves.

View attachment 29625

He also has 6 forced drop outs which is an area that has improved since last year. Although Hook was the one who really didn't like risking 7 tackle sets .

Now that's not to say his form is as good as Moses or Reynolds. It's not. But Nathan is one of our few players who has maintained or improved on his 2018 form.

He's not performing aswell as we need him to. Or as well as a half on that salary should be. But he has also been let down by his teammates a bunch of times. If others catch or hold the ball his assist stats improve a lot. So despite our form he personally has been pretty decent. Solid 7/10 IMO for the year so far.

No other team has had much ball in the opposition 20 than us. Yet we have the least amount of tries.

 

[BxTom]

No other team has had much ball in the opposition 20 than us. Yet we have the least amount of tries.

You keep whinging about Cleary and I'll tell Dave about you!!

 

[herbert henry1908]

Nrl.com just compared the halves... and in a shockingly bad team he's statistically comparable to the other halves.

View attachment 29625

He also has 6 forced drop outs which is an area that has improved since last year. Although Hook was the one who really didn't like risking 7 tackle sets .

Now that's not to say his form is as good as Moses or Reynolds. It's not. But Nathan is one of our few players who has maintained or improved on his 2018 form.

He's not performing aswell as we need him to. Or as well as a half on that salary should be. But he has also been let down by his teammates a bunch of times. If others catch or hold the ball his assist stats improve a lot. So despite our form he personally has been pretty decent. Solid 7/10 IMO for the year so far.

That comparison isn’t of all the halves, just of the blues no.7 options.

As you touch on at the end there, he’s not performing to his pay level. All those other guys pictured are being paid far less.

As Daz has mentioned we’ve had more ball in the final 20 than anyone, it’s his job to get people over the line in those circumstances.

He’s a 5/10 for value for money

Maybe 6/10 for performance.

Discussion remember was about who’s overrated, he’s definitely overrated.

 

[Panther_Daz]

As for the rest of MX's post there is things that can't be measured in stats.

Like vision, football awareness etc.

For example, someone like Moses may have not thrown the final pass to get a try assist, however he could've shifted quickly to an edge where he saw something was on.

 

[mxlegend99]

No other team has had much ball in the opposition 20 than us. Yet we have the least amount of tries.

Yet we also average the least metres gained and have the most tackles against us in the opposition 20. Those stats all oddly seem to contradict each other.... but are TEAM stats and not his personal stats or a reflection of his personal form.

We have a fullback and hookers who offer next to nothing in attack and have bombed multiple tries with guys losing the ball on or over the line. Nathan sets Martin up for a try. He drops it. He put Blake over a couple of times eho lost it over the line. His actions could have had 3 more try assists at minimum if his teammates held the ball. Its not like it was a bad pass or kick that resulted in those errors.

I know you dont rate him that highly. Which is fair enough. But i think he has improved personally over his 2018 form. His short kicking game especially. He's mixing it up alot more this year. Trying things with varied success. Some have failed spectacularly. Others have worked though. Others could've worked had teammates not been in poor personal form.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Cleary is a 600-700k per year player getting paid $1 million.

He’d have better players around him if he was being paid commensurate with his abilities.

 

[Abacus]

I have to agree. Nathan is lower down on my list of underperforming players ATM. I think its hard for any half when 3-4 of our plays inside the 20 is a 1-out hitup off the dummy half.

And then when we go to the halves, no decoys or inside lines - typically all players (except Kikau) just head for the cornerposts.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I know you dont rate him that highly. Which is fair enough. But i think he has improved personally over his 2018 form. His short kicking game especially. He's mixing it up alot more this year. Trying things with varied success. Some have failed spectacularly. Others have worked though. Others could've worked had teammates not been in poor personal form.

His short kicking game is one of the worst in the comp for a no.7, sometimes he kicks it right into opposition players, can’t even get it behind the line. I dare say the only reason he has more forced drop outs is because Hook is no longer around. In terms of it being an attacking weapon it’s deadset rubbish.

Maybe he is trying more things, but the issue is he’s mechanical with little vision. You can try more things but if you don’t have the basics to create tries after 70 first grade games, I don’t think you’re ever going to have it.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I have to agree. Nathan is lower down on my list of underperforming players ATM. I think its hard for any half when 3-4 of our plays inside the 20 is a 1-out hitup off the dummy half.

And then when we go to the halves, no decoys or inside lines - typically all players (except Kikau) just head for the cornerposts.

No one was saying he’s the worst performer in the team, he gives his all every match. It’s just that his all isn’t that great.

 

[Abacus]

No one was saying he’s the worst performer in the team, he gives his all every match. It’s just that his all isn’t that great.

I just think Dad could do him a favour or 2 if he coached a bit of structure to the attack. At the moment we're relying on ad lib footy or hitups 1 off the ruck inside the 20. Not many halves are effective in these scenarios.

 

[mxlegend99]

That comparison isn’t of all the halves, just of the blues no.7 options.

As you touch on at the end there, he’s not performing to his pay level. All those other guys pictured are being paid far less.

As Daz has mentioned we’ve had more ball in the final 20 than anyone, it’s his job to get people over the line in those circumstances.

He’s a 5/10 for value for money

Maybe 6/10 for performance.

Discussion remember was about who’s overrated, he’s definitely overrated.

It's their job not to drop it over the line. Once he puts in the pass or kick... whether it's a try assist or not is dependent on his teammates not f**king up. How many try assists have Maloney and Cleary lost because guys couldn't hold a ball? Or couldn't chase a kick that could've easily been a try?

Luke said Cleary was going pretty good. You said on what measure. I posted a comparison of the blues halves options where he stacks up against them despite playing in the worst team of the halves options.

He's not the best half. But he is easily going 'pretty good'. Compared to other halves and himself last year.

As for being overrated... basically no one is rating him or hyping him up at all. They havent done since Origin last year. He's going on a year now where everyone thinks he's shit.

 

[franklin2323]

As for the rest of MX's post there is things that can't be measured in stats.

Like vision, football awareness etc.

For example, someone like Moses may have not thrown the final pass to get a try assist, however he could've shifted quickly to an edge where he saw something was on.

Fox Sports stats under attack has total try involvement. That covers the pass before a try assist, try assist and try. Both our halves are way down

 

[herbert henry1908]

I just think Dad could do him a favour or 2 if he coached a bit of structure to the attack. At the moment we're relying on ad lib footy or hitups 1 off the ruck inside the 20. Not many halves are effective in these scenarios.

I don’t think he has that in his coaching, look at his time at the Tigers too. They struggled to score points.

 

[herbert henry1908]

It's their job not to drop it over the line. Once he puts in the pass or kick... whether it's a try assist or not is dependent on his teammates not f**king up. How many try assists have Maloney and Cleary lost because guys couldn't hold a ball? Or couldn't chase a kick that could've easily been a try?

Luke said Cleary was going pretty good. You said on what measure. I posted a comparison of the blues halves options where he stacks up against them despite playing in the worst team of the halves options.

He's not the best half. But he is easily going 'pretty good'. Compared to other halves and himself last year.

As for being overrated... basically no one is rating him or hyping him up at all. They havent done since Origin last year. He's going on a year now where everyone thinks he's shit.

None of those halves are going pretty good, they’re all pretty average. On track for 12 try assists for the whole year, good halves get in the mid to high teens.

There’d be less talk about Cleary if he was being paid $650k, but you have to produce when you’re being paid a million.

You’re right on the last point, though, more and more people are seeing that he’s just not that good. So he’s probably not overrated by the fans, but he is by his contract.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Cleary comes in equal 23rd for try assists this year.

For the life of me I can’t see how that’s good. It’s average at best.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-premiership/stats/players?sortBy=tryAssists

 

[franklin2323]

I have to agree. Nathan is lower down on my list of underperforming players ATM. I think its hard for any half when 3-4 of our plays inside the 20 is a 1-out hitup off the dummy half.

And then when we go to the halves, no decoys or inside lines - typically all players (except Kikau) just head for the cornerposts.

While our tactics are poor. One out stuff no decoys etc. I counted twice on Sat he went to Yeo with an unmarked guy outside him. Cut out pass or grubber to the corner are things in his control that he doesn't do

 

[tripster]

Either the behaviour of missing or being late to training is new behaviour, or it is behaviour that happened under Hook but went unpunished.

Sele, Hetherington and Blake have all either been dropped or missed games under Ivan due to being late or, or missing, training.

Missing training is one thing, but what about the attitude at training once players actually do turn up? What’s the measure of that? The on field performances suggest it is equally poor.

I would be very surprised if this happened at all under Hook (there was the Moylan and Co. incident in Melbourne, but that was about breaking curfew rather than missing training).

Given how fit the squad was and Griffin’s reputation for being “old skool” I expect that Griffin commanded respect from the players merely from his presence and how he handled himself and simply didn’t have these types of issues. In the same way that some class room teachers barely need to raise an eyebrow in order to control a classroom whereas others, no matter how many kids they put on detention, can never control a class.

If that is right and it is new behaviour, it probably means the players are mucking up either because:

- they are immature and ill disciplined youngsters who feel like they can get away with it;

- they don’t actually like to turn up to training because they are aren’t enjoying it under Ivan;

- they don’t respect the coach; or

- some combination of the above.

If some of the players aren’t happy under Ivan then I don’t think dropping them for missing training will fix anything. Unfortunately I suspect what will happen is that we will start to see some players leave.

 

[mxlegend99]

Cleary comes in equal 23rd for try assists this year.

For the life of me I can’t see how that’s good. It’s average at best.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-premiership/stats/players?sortBy=tryAssists

He's equal 10th for linebreak assists and Jimmy is equal 7th.
Jimmy is first for forced drop outs and Nathan is 5th.

The players are busting the line and not scoring. Good kicks are being put in and not being scored from.