Rumoured Targets 3

[slotmachine]

I think we should implement a five year plan like the Panthers. Or focus on youth like the Tigers.

 

[Glendale]

Mooney won the lottery once by fleecing other clubs for basically half their GF winning team (Lewis, Fifita, Maloney, Barba, Ennis, Heighington).

What are the chances it happens again with a historically bad side that isn't on the beach in Sydney?

Mooney didn't win the lottery he put in a plan in place over several years which eventually developed a grand final winning side. The same thing he is doing here.

"Historically bad side"- so the Sharks were a real succesfull team too hey.

"on the beach in Sydney"- well there it is folks. You can't win the comp unless you're on the beach in Sydney. Dammit.

What do you propose we should have done this week slots? Spent 700k on Mataulino? Spent 1mill on Reynolds?

Yeah we're hanging out for a signing at the moment but what we can't do is go and panic. You guys seem to think the plan was always to sit back and wait for the signings to pop up. When 3 months ago we were agressively approaching players like Scott, Finucane, and then Bird. Unluckily we missed out on them so the plan has been re-evaluated. The key thing is we've put ourselves in a great position to get somebody because we have the cap room. The trick is getting that first one, then the dominos will start to fall in our favour. Mooney is keeping calm and will get someone eventually.

 

[perverse]

I think we should implement a five year plan like the Panthers. Or focus on youth like the Tigers.

Honestly I think Brown is trying to skip a moneyballing period that we desperately need. The Knights circa 2009 would have had much more success on the open market. Keep some money in the bank so you've still got some amount of mobility in the market and keep contracts short, but yeah young and out of favour players with an upside is where we need to be. SKD is the only bloke we've been linked to that fits that description, and he plays the wrong positions.

I like Penriths model of having a coaching director with some pull, too.

 

[Glendale]

So was Jack Bird.

You mean Jerk Turd?

 

[perverse]

Mooney didn't win the lottery he put in a plan in place over several years which eventually developed a grand final winning side. The same thing he is doing here.

"Historically bad side"- so the Sharks were a real succesfull team too hey.

"on the beach in Sydney"- well there it is folks. You can't win the comp unless you're on the beach in Sydney. Dammit.

What do you propose we should have done this week slots? Spent 700k on Mataulino? Spent 1mill on Reynolds?

Yeah we're hanging out for a signing at the moment but what we can't do is go and panic. You guys seem to think the plan was always to sit back and wait for the signings to pop up. When 3 months ago we were agressively approaching players like Scott, Finucane, and then Bird. Unluckily we missed out on them so the plan has been re-evaluated. The key thing is we've put ourselves in a great position to get somebody because we have the cap room. The trick is getting that first one, then the dominos will start to fall in our favour. Mooney is keeping calm and will get someone eventually.

I'm not sure about any specific numbers, but the market is what it is whether we like it or not. If those are the players values in 2018 for a club that needs them... then that's their value unfortunately. We don't have any authority in the market to dictate to anyone what they are worth to our team right now. It sounds like a smart plan, but as we're seeing it's only smart if anyone actually signs up.

Brown and Mooney still have time in my book, and if this strategy of waiting for the right guys to be pushed out works then it will be a huge coup, but I don't see much evidence that there's a backup plan. It'll be 4 spoons in a row next year if nothing changes, and we're already starting to set records dating back half a century or more for number of losses in a 50 game period.

How much failure do you give Brown before you pull the plug? That's the big question that has to be asked at some stage.

 

[slotmachine]

That's the big question that has to be asked at some stage.

You're not allowed to ask that question because everything is fine.

 

[Johns Magic]

You're not allowed to ask that question because everything is fine.

You won't have anything to do when we start winning so I wouldn't complain.

 

[Miller was a legend]

I'm not sure about any specific numbers, but the market is what it is whether we like it or not. If those are the players values in 2018 for a club that needs them... then that's their value unfortunately. We don't have any authority in the market to dictate to anyone what they are worth to our team right now. It sounds like a smart plan, but as we're seeing it's only smart if anyone actually signs up.

Brown and Mooney still have time in my book, and if this strategy of waiting for the right guys to be pushed out works then it will be a huge coup, but I don't see much evidence that there's a backup plan. It'll be 4 spoons in a row next year if nothing changes, and we're already starting to set records dating back half a century or more for number of losses in a 50 game period.

How much failure do you give Brown before you pull the plug? That's the big question that has to be asked at some stage.

I really don't see the issue of attracting players being about Brown. Perhaps it's around the clubs future being settled asap.

 

[perverse]

I really don't see the issue of attracting players being about Brown. Perhaps it's around the clubs future being settled asap.

I'm a big fan of what Brown has done as far as gutting the club, it had to be done, but I'm a little skeptical about his methods for building it back up at this stage. I don't think Brown is actively harming our chances per se, but there's no doubt that having a marketable coach can help attract players. Hell, doesn't even need to be marketable as much as have some strong links to a club or 2 that we can harvest some talent from. Brennan at the Panthers would fit that bill perfectly.

I'm not calling for Browns head, to my mind he gets this season and next at a minimum... but at some stage KPIs need to be spoken about, because at the moment we're just wheel spinning without much hope that anything will change. Most people seem to be happy enough to just leave him to do whatever he likes without any performance indicators at all... and that reminds me a lot of how we used to manage our playing roster to no success whatsoever.

I don't think that it's far fetched or overly demanding to expect that we don't get a 4th spoon in a row next year, and if we end up in that position then I believe that's the moment where questions need to be asked and a change in direction should be considered. By this time next year I feel like the pressure will be on unless something changes in the meantime.

 

[slotmachine]

I guess the hope is now we pick up scraps like Tolman, SKD, Vete, *someone* to play in the halves and aim for 14th in 2018 with another huge war chest for 2019. TBH that probably gets Brown an extension.

 

[perverse]

I really would like us to take a Brian Smith approach to recruitment for a year or 2... focus on hidden gems and youth looking for chances. It seems like we're barely in the market for this type of player at all, but to me it's the stepping stone that we need to get to a point where players will want to come here. We wouldn't need to spend the entire cap to do this.

It's no secret that I'm a big Smithy fan. He has his faults, but his ability to spot a player he can make work within his systems is second to none. To me, that is a hallmark of a truly great football brain. It worries me that Browns attitude seems to be more in the Bennett mould - that without the best stock you can't go anywhere. The truth is somewhere in the middle, you're not likely to ever win a comp playing moneyball, but it will get you competing - and I feel like we need to take that step before trying to bullshit rep talent into coming here.

At the moment, all a good player sees at our club is a shit tonne of hard work with no guaranteed return on that investment.

 

[Pedge1971]

Barry Toohey questioned the numbers being offered to Gagai on Twitter today and reckons he will stay.

 

[perverse]

I guess the hope is now we pick up scraps like Tolman, SKD, Vete, *someone* to play in the halves and aim for 14th in 2018 with another huge war chest for 2019. TBH that probably gets Brown an extension.

Tolman would be an excellent "scrap" to pick up. Vete too. I think there's a chance that we end up with Phythian in the 6 next year, even if we sign another half... I just like what I've seen from him and think he's worth a punt there over anyone left on the market at the moment to be honest.

 

[perverse]

Barry Toohey questioned the numbers being offered to Gagai on Twitter today and reckons he will stay.

I think he'll stay too, he's too tight with Browny to move on at this point - he's drinking the kool aid. It won't stop his manager trying to get every last cent, though. I daresay he'll pass on the contract extension but renegotiate himself a nice little payrise. There's already been plenty of time for him to sign elsewhere if he had a major intention of leaving.

 

[Johns Magic]

@perverse in terms of Brown's marketability to recruits I don't see a better comparison than Shane Flanagan when he first hit the scene. He wasn't a marketable name and was at a struggling club. I think Brown seems like a likeable guy and I doubt it's him personally that is preventing players from signing with us.

We are in a harder spot than Cronulla because we are not a Sydney club. But Brown has done a good job of making noise about what a great place Newcastle the town is to live and selling that is a big positive in my eyes.

I don't think we could get a big name coach even if we wanted to...what could we offer them? And when we did we got Bennett who gave up on us.

I like what Brown is trying to do and I still have full faith. If in 12 months we are still last, haven't improved our roster and made no good recruits then I will start worrying.

I could very well be wrong, but I am done with the types of coaches we had the last few years and the quick-fixes. While the team is putting in, wqe are blooding juniors and cutting overpaid hacks, and we are actively trying to recruit quality players in the market I feel we are going the right way about it.

Who would have dreamed we could sign Kalyn Ponga a year ago? People seem to be forgetting what this guy could do for us. He may be the player of his generation and Brown snared him.

We are a couple of good signings away from it all clicking IMHO.

 

[perverse]

@perverse in terms of Brown's marketability to recruits I don't see a better comparison than Shane Flanagan when he first hit the scene. He wasn't a marketable name and was at a struggling club. I think Brown seems like a likeable guy and I doubt it's him personally that is preventing players from signing with us.

We are in a harder spot than Cronulla because we are not a Sydney club. But Brown has done a good job of making noise about what a great place Newcastle the town is to live and selling that is a big positive in my eyes.

I don't think we could get a big name coach even if we wanted to...what could we offer them? And when we did we got Bennett who gave up on us.

I like what Brown is trying to do and I still have full faith. If in 12 months we are still last, haven't improved our roster and made no good recruits then I will start worrying.

I could very well be wrong, but I am done with the types of coaches we had the last few years and the quick-fixes. While the team is putting in, wqe are blooding juniors and cutting overpaid hacks, and we are actively trying to recruit quality players in the market I feel we are going the right way about it.

Who would have dreamed we could sign Kalyn Ponga a year ago? People seem to be forgetting what this guy could do for us. He may be the player of his generation and Brown snared him.

We are a couple of good signings away from it all clicking IMHO.

I don't think we're in overly different places of thinking, I'm a bit less patient than you more than anything I guess. You're right that we would struggle to even sign a coach that could improve that situation anyway. I do like the idea of Brennan if Brown doesn't work out, though. The Panthers lower grades are worth harvesting.

Ponga is kinda the exactly type of player I actually think we do have a decent chance at snaring. We've given him overs, and he's coming for lifestyle reasons but primarily I'm sure to make the Knights fullback position his own - something he doesn't have the opportunity to do at the Cowboys in the near or even mid-term future. We could do worse than targeting more that fit this description. Mac has mentioned Connor Watson as a bloke of this mould, and I tend to agree that he's the sort of target that is realistic and could take us forward.

I don't know how far a few good signings could take us exactly, but all that matters to me at this point really is that we're moving forward. I feel like we've been caught with our pants down a bit with recruitment this year... we've been knocked back by a lot of people - and those are only the ones that made the news. I just think it would be prudent to stop shooting for the moon and to be a bit smarter about our targets at this point. I don't think this theory of waiting for the good clubs to have good players forced out is overly realistic at all... more wishful thinking.

What I'm getting at really is that we don't have any real barometer for what success over the next 12 or 18 months looks like... and I feel like we need to start talking about performance at some stage, because it won't matter who is coaching us if our current trend continues unabated. If we don't have any expectations as a club around performance... then we haven't really fixed anything, we've just moved a general lack of expectation on the players up a level to the coach.

There is a point at which the failure becomes too great and change needs to be made. I guess I'm just wondering where that point is? I think that's an interesting and important discussion to have whilst we're not really going anywhere much.

 

[Still Nutty]

I understand and agree with the KPI argument and nobody gets a free pass while we are staring down at 2018 and thinking we have not progressed as a club under Brown and Mooney on a performance basis, if that's what we are finding in 2018...but I think there is another aspect that we need to judge on in looking at where we are now and it is all related to depth.

If we have a relatively better run with injuries (and other stupidities) through the first 8 rounds (i.e. Phythian, Pauli, Mullen, Kostjasyn, Mataora, Paea and now Buhrer, Barnett, etc.) I think we would have realistically been at least 3 and 5 and possibly 4 and 4 for 2017 and this is a very different discussion and possibly a different recruitment experience for us if that season start had occurred.

It's not that other teams don't have injury woes as well but our real lack of depth for this season has meant we needed a blessed start for us to be progressing further and that lack of depth is one of Brown and Mooney's biggest challenges to get that impetus for us to establish sustainable progress in rebuilding this club.

I am and continue to believe that Brown and Mooney genuinely present our best strategically managed plan for the long term sustainability and security of this football team and that is not a free pass because it has to be delivered upon but I also look and think, if not them then who would it be....I know we tried the 'best coach in the world' who found it all too hard and left a legacy that meant we are where we are now. Truth is, if Brown doesn't last beyond next year, I know the club has been left in a much better state than he inherited from the 'super coach'.

 

[perverse]

I understand and agree with the KPI argument and nobody gets a free pass while we are staring down at 2018 and thinking we have not progressed as a club under Brown and Mooney on a performance basis, if that's what we are finding in 2018...but I think there is another aspect that we need to judge on in looking at where we are now and it is all related to depth.

If we have a relatively better run with injuries (and other stupidities) through the first 8 rounds (i.e. Phythian, Pauli, Mullen, Kostjasyn, Mataora, Paea and now Buhrer, Barnett, etc.) I think we would have realistically been at least 3 and 5 and possibly 4 and 4 for 2017 and this is a very different discussion and possibly a different recruitment experience for us if that season start had occurred.

It's not that other teams don't have injury woes as well but our real lack of depth for this season has meant we needed a blessed start for us to be progressing further and that lack of depth is one of Brown and Mooney's biggest challenges to get that impetus for us to establish sustainable progress in rebuilding this club.

I am and continue to believe that Brown and Mooney genuinely present our best strategically managed plan for the long term sustainability and security of this football team and that is not a free pass because it has to be delivered upon but I also look and think, if not them then who would it be....I know we tried the 'best coach in the world' who found it all too hard and left a legacy that meant we are where we are now. Truth is, if Brown doesn't last beyond next year, I know the club has been left in a much better state than he inherited from the 'super coach'.

Sure, I don't have a problem with much of that - but it doesn't really go very far to answering the question: what are those KPIs? I'm willing to say that if we're in the same position this time next year and still wondering what the answer is, then I'd start shopping.

 

[slotmachine]

How many wins is the target next season? Is there even a target?

 

[perverse]

How many wins is the target next season? Is there even a target?

Exactly, there needs to be.