Sack Adam O'Brien

[Nuke]

To be fair, the poster on the other forum has been pretty much on the money for everything in recent years, but as was mentioned a few posts ago, Knights were identifying their leaks and were tightening up, so any info from him has been few and far between this year.

 

[macavity]

You're right, Hosking would have made all the difference this year. We don't have any 98kg backrowers to lead our pack. We're just stuck with the undersized 106kg ones

Funny that his name never came up when we were winning in 2023, you know the year we apparently rejected him coming back for minimum wage

I really don’t know what your point is other than to be contrarian.

 

[HarVeeGee]

It's poor roster management - not silly teenage ego.

Get the salary cap only 10% off for each player in the roster is over 1.1 million blown. The Knights are known for signing too many mid tier journeymen offering no bang for the buck - there's ya players like Hosking let go.

Add to that - a lack of 3rd party deals = juniors can't be kept.

But he was happy to come back for minimum wage. So as long as there was a spot free there’s no world in which we couldn’t fit him in. Even if the roster had been poorly managed, he still could have been fit in.

And guys who can actually play first grade but cost minimum wage are exactly how you balance the cap. Invaluable to that end. So yeah in that sense, horrible roster management. It’s not that they couldn’t squeeze him in, it’s that adding him makes it easier to squeeze others in - and they punted on it. There’s no plausible explanation for this beyond not wanting to admit a mistake.

 

[aqua_duck]

We're really getting bent out of shape over Hosking?

Hosking is just another example of AOB being unable to identify/get the best out of players. This is a list of players AOB has let walk out the door for whatever reason and where they are now;

Hosking-was a perennially solid NSW cup player who was not wanted and made his first grade debut for the premiers after leaving us
Josh King-Was a guy who tried hard but has turned into a mainstay at the storm
Mitch Barnett-was a good solid forward for us who left and is now an origin and Aust rep
Connor Watson-Was decent for us but felt he needed to leave to develop and is now an origin rep
Jacob Kiraz-was brought in by Zammit, was not rated by AOB, released and now a rep level winger
Starford Toa-was played out of position his entire stint by AOB, left and now a solid first grade centre
Kurt Mann-was solid for us, left and now 18th man for qld
Simi Sasagi-highly rated junior who never really got an extended opportunity under AOB, now a mainstay on the raiders interchange bench

For a club like us that doesn’t have the luxury of being able to attract many star players without paying overs I think it’s vital we can both hold on to decent players and also be able to get the most out of them.

 

[Yosh]

Hosking is just another example of AOB being unable to identify/get the best out of players. This is a list of players AOB has let walk out the door for whatever reason and where they are now;

Hosking-was a perennially solid NSW cup player who was not wanted and made his first grade debut for the premiers after leaving us
Josh King-Was a guy who tried hard but has turned into a mainstay at the storm
Mitch Barnett-was a good solid forward for us who left and is now an origin and Aust rep
Connor Watson-Was decent for us but felt he needed to leave to develop and is now an origin rep
Jacob Kiraz-was brought in by Zammit, was not rated by AOB, released and now a rep level winger
Starford Toa-was played out of position his entire stint by AOB, left and now a solid first grade centre
Kurt Mann-was solid for us, left and now 18th man for qld
Simi Sasagi-highly rated junior who never really got an extended opportunity under AOB, now a mainstay on the raiders interchange bench

For a club like us that doesn’t have the luxury of being able to attract many star players without paying overs I think it’s vital we can both hold on to decent players and also be able to get the most out of them.

Add to that list:
Dom
DSaf has been good for the Phins
Leo is going...

Probably more as well.

 

[NoSchitSherlock]

AOB won't go while Gardner is still there.
Might be different next year.
I reckon AOB should realise he can't do anything with the team.
I reckon we need structural changes.
Personally, I'd sack AOB now and give Bedsy the job for the rest of the season
A shake-up will stir the pot a little for a while but only for a while. It'd put everyone on notice from the top to the bottom.

 

[TooheysNew]

Add to that list:
Dom
DSaf has been good for the Phins
Leo is going...

Probably more as well.

Dom is definitely not one to add to that list.

 

[perverse]

Hosking is just another example of AOB being unable to identify/get the best out of players. This is a list of players AOB has let walk out the door for whatever reason and where they are now;

Hosking-was a perennially solid NSW cup player who was not wanted and made his first grade debut for the premiers after leaving us
Josh King-Was a guy who tried hard but has turned into a mainstay at the storm
Mitch Barnett-was a good solid forward for us who left and is now an origin and Aust rep
Connor Watson-Was decent for us but felt he needed to leave to develop and is now an origin rep
Jacob Kiraz-was brought in by Zammit, was not rated by AOB, released and now a rep level winger
Starford Toa-was played out of position his entire stint by AOB, left and now a solid first grade centre
Kurt Mann-was solid for us, left and now 18th man for qld
Simi Sasagi-highly rated junior who never really got an extended opportunity under AOB, now a mainstay on the raiders interchange bench

For a club like us that doesn’t have the luxury of being able to attract many star players without paying overs I think it’s vital we can both hold on to decent players and also be able to get the most out of them.

Hudson Young and Beau Fermor (both playing origin). Nick Meaney...

*edit* actually looks like Young was a pre-AOB f**kup, looking at the timeline. Would be a handy bloke to have at the club though.

 

[The Axe of Druss]

I really don’t know what your point is other than to be contrarian.

Really? Either you're a bit dim or you're being deliberately obtuse

 

[The Axe of Druss]

Hosking is just another example of AOB being unable to identify/get the best out of players. This is a list of players AOB has let walk out the door for whatever reason and where they are now;

Hosking-was a perennially solid NSW cup player who was not wanted and made his first grade debut for the premiers after leaving us
Josh King-Was a guy who tried hard but has turned into a mainstay at the storm
Mitch Barnett-was a good solid forward for us who left and is now an origin and Aust rep
Connor Watson-Was decent for us but felt he needed to leave to develop and is now an origin rep
Jacob Kiraz-was brought in by Zammit, was not rated by AOB, released and now a rep level winger
Starford Toa-was played out of position his entire stint by AOB, left and now a solid first grade centre
Kurt Mann-was solid for us, left and now 18th man for qld
Simi Sasagi-highly rated junior who never really got an extended opportunity under AOB, now a mainstay on the raiders interchange bench

For a club like us that doesn’t have the luxury of being able to attract many star players without paying overs I think it’s vital we can both hold on to decent players and also be able to get the most out of them.

At the risk of being seen as "contrarian" Im going to play devils advocate here

1st off I want to make a couple of points clear -

1. I'm not a fan of AOB and i think he needs to go. In fact I think it needed to happen last year
2. Our club has sucked at bringing our juniors through. We have absolutely done a disservice to the young fellas of our catchment area.

Now every club has a list of players they had to let go, or chose to, that have thrived elsewhere. Thats RL and we seem to have more than most but we also have a much bigger catchment than most. Its frustrating and its hard to swallow but it is what it is, the reality of playing in a salary cap sport that's highly competitive in the junior space.

That being said, every player we lost would have come with a consequence if they didn't leave. If we had kept Kiraz, Meaney and To'a then we were unlikely to have gotten Marzhew or Young, both guys who were super important to our 2023 run. There's even a fair argument that we don't get Gagai back either or even lose Best to a better deal. Hell, theres a fair chance Sharpe doesnt get a run too. We keep Hosking and Sisagi then we risk losing Lucas and Frizell. Even KPP, who I acknowledge hasn't probably met his potential yet but is arguably one of the most physically gifted backrowers going around now. Barnett and King probably see us never sign Thompson and likely lose one of the Saifiti boys earlier.

Point is its easy right now, when we have 1000 injuries and look like shit to peak over the fence at players we've lost and be frustrated at them doing well in other systems. Some in packs that have world class players. Some in systems that take fringe first grader and make them look great by simplifying their role. I don't need to go back and look because I'm 100% certain that there were no posts here from people saying they wish we had those players in the squad back in the latter half of 2023 when we were humming. Inversely, I could find many posts about every player listed in this thread from members who bagged them and wanted them gone or were apathetic at best about them leaving.

20/20 hindsight is natural but it needs to be balanced with context. I too want our club to be better but its folly cherry picking the past to justify the present.

 

[Knight Tales]

Are we strong enough to move Kalyn on and bank on Fletcher and Dylan IF they both go to another level over the next1-2 years. If By chance Brown does prove to be a quality 7 then Kalyn’s value decreases significantly here. Fletcher is a fullback first all day.

 

[HarVeeGee]

At the risk of being seen as "contrarian" Im going to play devils advocate here

1st off I want to make a couple of points clear -

1. I'm not a fan of AOB and i think he needs to go. In fact I think it needed to happen last year
2. Our club has sucked at bringing our juniors through. We have absolutely done a disservice to the young fellas of our catchment area.

Now every club has a list of players they had to let go, or chose to, that have thrived elsewhere. Thats RL and we seem to have more than most but we also have a much bigger catchment than most. Its frustrating and its hard to swallow but it is what it is, the reality of playing in a salary cap sport that's highly competitive in the junior space.

That being said, every player we lost would have come with a consequence if they didn't leave. If we had kept Kiraz, Meaney and To'a then we were unlikely to have gotten Marzhew or Young, both guys who were super important to our 2023 run. There's even a fair argument that we don't get Gagai back either or even lose Best to a better deal. Hell, theres a fair chance Sharpe doesnt get a run too. We keep Hosking and Sisagi then we risk losing Lucas and Frizell. Even KPP, who I acknowledge hasn't probably met his potential yet but is arguably one of the most physically gifted backrowers going around now. Barnett and King probably see us never sign Thompson and likely lose one of the Saifiti boys earlier.

Point is its easy right now, when we have 1000 injuries and look like shit to peak over the fence at players we've lost and be frustrated at them doing well in other systems. Some in packs that have world class players. Some in systems that take fringe first grader and make them look great by simplifying their role. I don't need to go back and look because I'm 100% certain that there were no posts here from people saying they wish we had those players in the squad back in the latter half of 2023 when we were humming. Inversely, I could find many posts about every player listed in this thread from members who bagged them and wanted them gone or were apathetic at best about them leaving.

20/20 hindsight is natural but it needs to be balanced with context. I too want our club to be better but its folly cherry picking the past to justify the present.

Again: Hosking would have accepted the minimum, and happily accepted being a guy who captains NSW Cup and plays NRL when needed. Would not in any way have impacted Lucas' career, or anyone else's. He was desperate to come back and we basically turned our nose up at him. Now we're shitting ourselves the moment we get 2-3 injuries in the pack rather than saying "Zac won't let us down".

Sasagi, also, is not making big coin at the Raiders. To'a isn't making a lot at the Tigers. Meaney isn't on big money at the Storm. The kind of tough decisions you're talking about aren't "tough" when it's "do we keep this talented/reliable guy for basically nothing, or not?"

I'm very happy POS has not just kept Croker and Jones, but given them more than one year, this is literally the first recruitment guy who's actually shown some sense here. They can do a job for you in first grade and they're cheap. Keep them. They balance the cap. Previous admins would have been distracted by shiny toys and deprived one or the other of their top 30 spot to do it.

Croker's interview on re-signing was very telling, he talked about how much it meant to him & how much of a weight off it was to get multiple years, rather than reach the end of the season feeling uncertain about whether he had a job playing footy next year. When you think about it, it doesn't make sense what we used to do, basically neg these depth players & make them feel totally un-valued, handing out 1 year extensions at the 11th hour if we absolutely couldn't find anything more exciting. Yeah I guess we'll give you a year if we feel like it. Enjoy a bunch of anxiety and sleepless nights as you wait to find out!

Contrast with the Raiders, their abundant depth forwards. A lot of them you probably don't want as your week to week starters, but they can come in and perform well for a few weeks when needed - and they are needed, often, injuries are so common now in the NRL. Note that most of them get two or three year contracts. Security. A feeling of the club valuing them. And this is repaid with loyalty from player to club. People wonder why Trey Mooney is still there, well, this is probably why. They make him feel valued.

It's not that we didn't keep all of the guys we've lost, it's that too many have left, and we consistently have depth issues which have bitten us on the arse multiple times. Hosking stands out as an own goal not because he'd turn us into contenders, but how valuable he is relative to the cost of keeping him, which in this case is literally nothing, no cost, no trade off. It's a symbolic own goal.

 

[slotmachine]

The mix in our forwards is just way off, we need a lot more in that second tier (or preferably first).

Assuming you need 8 forwards in the 17 it's an untenable situation that sees two injuries forcing you to play blokes that shouldn't be there.

NRL players
Adam Elliott
Dylan Lucas
Jacob Saifiti
Kai Pearce-Paul
Leo Thompson
Tyson Frizell
Jack Hetherington (bump him into the next tier if you like)

Depth
Brodie Jones
Mathew Croker

Shouldn't be playing NRL (yet)
Wil Sullivan
Elijah Salesa-Leaumoana
Tyrone Thompson
Thomas Cant
Mason Teague
Paul Bryan
Jermaine McEwen
Francis Manuleleua

 

[The Axe of Druss]

Again: Hosking would have accepted the minimum, and happily accepted being a guy who captains NSW Cup and plays NRL when needed. Would not in any way have impacted Lucas' career, or anyone else's. He was desperate to come back and we basically turned our nose up at him. Now we're shitting ourselves the moment we get 2-3 injuries in the pack rather than saying "Zac won't let us down".

Sasagi, also, is not making big coin at the Raiders. To'a isn't making a lot at the Tigers. Meaney isn't on big money at the Storm. The kind of tough decisions you're talking about aren't "tough" when it's "do we keep this talented/reliable guy for basically nothing, or not?"

I'm very happy POS has not just kept Croker and Jones, but given them more than one year, this is literally the first recruitment guy who's actually shown some sense here. They can do a job for you in first grade and they're cheap. Keep them. They balance the cap. Previous admins would have been distracted by shiny toys and deprived one or the other of their top 30 spot to do it.

Croker's interview on re-signing was very telling, he talked about how much it meant to him & how much of a weight off it was to get multiple years, rather than reach the end of the season feeling uncertain about whether he had a job playing footy next year. When you think about it, it doesn't make sense what we used to do, basically neg these depth players & make them feel totally un-valued, handing out 1 year extensions at the 11th hour if we absolutely couldn't find anything more exciting. Yeah I guess we'll give you a year if we feel like it. Enjoy a bunch of anxiety and sleepless nights as you wait to find out!

Contrast with the Raiders, their abundant depth forwards. A lot of them you probably don't want as your week to week starters, but they can come in and perform well for a few weeks when needed - and they are needed, often, injuries are so common now in the NRL. Note that most of them get two or three year contracts. Security. A feeling of the club valuing them. And this is repaid with loyalty from player to club. People wonder why Trey Mooney is still there, well, this is probably why. They make him feel valued.

It's not that we didn't keep all of the guys we've lost, it's that too many have left, and we consistently have depth issues which have bitten us on the arse multiple times. Hosking stands out as an own goal not because he'd turn us into contenders, but how valuable he is relative to the cost of keeping him, which in this case is literally nothing, no cost, no trade off. It's a symbolic own goal.

I'm sorry but i have 3 issues with this:

1. I very much doubt Hosking wanted to just be a Cup player and would have been content to be so. That flies in the face of everything a young pro sportsman is. Can anyone actually produce the proof that this is what Hosking would have agreed to? Cause his current career does not reflect that path, at all. He would have been in our top 30 so to say to have him would have "cost literally nothing" is absurd.

2. I reject the fact this "would not have impacted Lucas' career". By the very nature both of them play in the same position, being on the same squad puts them in each others paths. Comon mate

3. Saying anyone thought "do we keep this talented/reliable guy for basically nothing, or not?" about Meany, King or To'a is being disingenuous. None of them had proven to be either talented or reliable while they were here and the comments on this very forum reflected that.


Again, where were the calls for these guys when we were setting the world alight at the back end of 2023? Why do these discussions about "who we should have kept" etc only come up when we are shit? Pointless stupid false 20/20 hindsight with zero receipts to back them up


You are right about 1 thing though, POS electing to keep guys like Croker and Jones is smart management. I see potential in both and am happy they are here, particularly Croker who I see as a real leader in the playing squad. However there are plenty, only just recently, who think those 2 are expendable and not worth having at the club. I wonder if they too would be added to the list of "what if we kept them" should they go elsewhere and level up their careers? I hope we don't have to find out

 

[HarVeeGee]

Yeah I do know someone who has been told by Hosking himself, directly, that he wanted to come back to Newy and would have accepted the minimum salary. So I do know that one for certain.

It wouldn't have impacted Lucas because it wouldn't have impacted the need for genuine week to week starting calibre forwards.

The mix in our forwards is just way off, we need a lot more in that second tier (or preferably first).

Assuming you need 8 forwards in the 17 it's an untenable situation that sees two injuries forcing you to play blokes that shouldn't be there.

NRL players
Adam Elliott
Dylan Lucas
Jacob Saifiti
Kai Pearce-Paul
Leo Thompson
Tyson Frizell
Jack Hetherington (bump him into the next tier if you like)

Depth
Brodie Jones
Mathew Croker

Shouldn't be playing NRL (yet)
Wil Sullivan
Elijah Salesa-Leaumoana
Tyrone Thompson
Thomas Cant
Mason Teague
Paul Bryan
Jermaine McEwen
Francis Manuleleua

Yep that's exactly it. And that lineup of NRL calibre players, it's not awful, but it's not as good as you'd want if you're balancing it with guys who are huge liabilities (right now) in the top grade.

Hopefully it pays off in the long run & maybe the fact AOB hasn't copped the sack indicates that internally the club are willing to accept a transition season. But I can't imagine they expected the team to be this bad even when the best 17 was mostly available.

 

[aqua_duck]

Hudson Young and Beau Fermor (both playing origin). Nick Meaney...

*edit* actually looks like Young was a pre-AOB f**kup, looking at the timeline. Would be a handy bloke to have at the club though.

I’ve left out Young as he left at as a 17 year old after copping a 2 year doping ban for an over the counter supplement, Fermor was granted a compassionate release to head back to qld

 

[aqua_duck]

At the risk of being seen as "contrarian" Im going to play devils advocate here

1st off I want to make a couple of points clear -

1. I'm not a fan of AOB and i think he needs to go. In fact I think it needed to happen last year
2. Our club has sucked at bringing our juniors through. We have absolutely done a disservice to the young fellas of our catchment area.

Now every club has a list of players they had to let go, or chose to, that have thrived elsewhere. Thats RL and we seem to have more than most but we also have a much bigger catchment than most. Its frustrating and its hard to swallow but it is what it is, the reality of playing in a salary cap sport that's highly competitive in the junior space.

That being said, every player we lost would have come with a consequence if they didn't leave. If we had kept Kiraz, Meaney and To'a then we were unlikely to have gotten Marzhew or Young, both guys who were super important to our 2023 run. There's even a fair argument that we don't get Gagai back either or even lose Best to a better deal. Hell, theres a fair chance Sharpe doesnt get a run too. We keep Hosking and Sisagi then we risk losing Lucas and Frizell. Even KPP, who I acknowledge hasn't probably met his potential yet but is arguably one of the most physically gifted backrowers going around now. Barnett and King probably see us never sign Thompson and likely lose one of the Saifiti boys earlier.

Point is its easy right now, when we have 1000 injuries and look like shit to peak over the fence at players we've lost and be frustrated at them doing well in other systems. Some in packs that have world class players. Some in systems that take fringe first grader and make them look great by simplifying their role. I don't need to go back and look because I'm 100% certain that there were no posts here from people saying they wish we had those players in the squad back in the latter half of 2023 when we were humming. Inversely, I could find many posts about every player listed in this thread from members who bagged them and wanted them gone or were apathetic at best about them leaving.

20/20 hindsight is natural but it needs to be balanced with context. I too want our club to be better but it’s folly cherry picking the past to justify the present.

The time lines don’t line up, Kiraz was here whilst we had Toa, Young, Gagai, and Best and I would argue on current form Kiraz is ahead of Young and Marzhew, I haven’t included Meaney because I think he left prior. Likewise Barnett was here when we signed Leo so don’t see how that makes sense, if we keep Barnett we don’t sign Adam Elliott.
With guys like Toa, Hosking, Sisagi it’s not a case of them being superstars but rather that they were never given a proper crack by AOB or played out of position.
This isn’t an exercise of what our team would look like now but rather examples of players not developing under AOB’s coaching and AOB not being able identify talent from right under his nose

 

[The Axe of Druss]

The time lines don’t line up, Kiraz was here whilst we had Toa, Young, Gagai, and Best and I would argue on current form Kiraz is ahead of Young and Marzhew, I haven’t included Meaney because I think he left prior. Likewise Barnett was here when we signed Leo so don’t see how that makes sense, if we keep Barnett we don’t sign Adam Elliott.
With guys like Toa, Hosking, Sisagi it’s not a case of them being superstars but rather that they were never given a proper crack by AOB or played out of position.
This isn’t an exercise of what our team would look like now but rather examples of players not developing under AOB’s coaching and AOB not being able identify talent from right under his nose

I've never argued against the point of AOB failing to develop some of those players, in fact i made that very point myself.

Whether they were here or not at the same time is irrelevant really so nit picking on the details doesnt mean much. Would we have been able to keep the likes of Best, Lucas, Sharpe etc if they were kept on is the crux of it. You keep your best prospects as you see it at the time and others will get moved on. Id have the 3 I mentioned in my side over the ones not here if it came down to it.

Whether those 3 were given a proper chance is up for interpretation. Starford was given 20 games here and was average at best. I remember him having some outright shocking games in there and not many railed against us showing him the door. I dont think the other 2 even had a 1st grade game here from memory.

If we keep looking back we'll never look forward in the end.

 

[Yosh]

I've never argued against the point of AOB failing to develop some of those players, in fact i made that very point myself.

Whether they were here or not at the same time is irrelevant really so nit picking on the details doesnt mean much. Would we have been able to keep the likes of Best, Lucas, Sharpe etc if they were kept on is the crux of it. You keep your best prospects as you see it at the time and others will get moved on. Id have the 3 I mentioned in my side over the ones not here if it came down to it.

Whether those 3 were given a proper chance is up for interpretation. Starford was given 20 games here and was average at best. I remember him having some outright shocking games in there and not many railed against us showing him the door. I dont think the other 2 even had a 1st grade game here from memory.

If we keep looking back we'll never look forward in the end.

I was quite a fan of Starford while he was here. I remember he was a star rep centre/fullback but never played on the wing. AOB only played him on the wing. Always wanted to see him get crack at centre here. He is very injury prone it seems so many not a huge loss.

 

[HarVeeGee]

If we keep looking back we'll never look forward in the end.

A lot of us just venting I think.

But yeah leaving aside the recriminations: I just want to see genuine long-term planning from the club. I want to be able to look back 5-6 years from now, look at the moves that were made, the players developed, and think, wow, things really came together didn't they?

Kalyn and Pearce arriving in 2018 felt like the start of that, but you look back on the years since and it all just looks so foolish. Every decision short term, reactive, or when there was some element of future planning, getting massively over-excited and jumping the gun (eg signing Dylan Brown to that deal based on how awesome they thought Kalyn and Fletch looked together... on the training paddock). Always chasing the quick fix, the shortcut.

I want a Knights Halfback Academy. I want investment in that on a level to rival Penrith's investment. However much money that takes, whatever cherry of inducement the club has to come up with to bring the right kids in. I want the best young talent we can identify on that front put in a competitive situation & given the best education on the principles of halves play money can buy. For me that's the #1 most pressing issue the club needs to address - not who's playing halfback next year, but what it will take for us to have the best halfback in the NRL 5-10 years from now.

No matter what the perception of the Knights is as a club, Penrith are the proof of concept: If you build it, if you invest in it, if you really really want to do whatever it takes to get it... you can find it. Nathan Cleary is not a talent on the order of Johns or even Thurston. What he is is a combination of physical attributes, insatiable work ethic, and literally the best junior coaching any half in NRL history has ever received (along with the education guys like Luai and Katoa got).

Perhaps the most storied jersey in NRL history, the Knights #7, has not had a truly worthy occupant since 2007. We won't fill it sitting around & waiting for another Cessnock miracle baby, or overpaying for a very good five-eighth. We'll only get there if we build the infrastructure to create it.