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Sack Griffin

Dragon David

First Grade
Messages
9,229
I'm interested to know who you would cut from our squad and who you would recruit to make things better.
The Dragons players off contract at the end of 2022 are:-
Billy Burns, Faamausili, Ford, Gosiewski and Moga. McGuire is off to the Super League and Sims will go to the Storm.

The players off contract at the end of 2023 are:-
George Burgess, Tyrell Fuimaono, Ben Hunt, Josh Kerr, Blake Lawrie, Moses Mbye, Andrew McCullough, Aaron Woods

The players who are contracted beyond 2023 and off contract at the end of 2024 are:-
Talatau Amone, Jack de Belin, Mathew Feagai, Max Feagai, Jaiyden Hunt, Francis Molo, Michael Molo, Cody Ramsey, Mikaele Ravalawa, Tyrell Sloan, Jaydn Su'a, Moses Suli

Players who are contracted to the end of 2025 are:-
Jack Bird, Jayden Sullivan

We have a couple of development guys in Reuben and O'Ofou.

Now out of all of the current players we have and are off contract after this year I'd get rid of Faamausili (Jordan McLean), Ford (Angus Chrichton), Gosiewski (Chris Lewis) and Moga (Corey Oates) and replace them with those in brackets.

Those under contract for 2023 but should be paid out and contract cut short are Burgess (Hass?), McCullough (Liddle) and Woods (Matt Lodge - but Roosters probably keep him).

Really not that much around of real quality. Who would you get rid of and sign up possm?
 
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Dragon David

First Grade
Messages
9,229
In my opinion, Sloan is Dufty mark II. The question is, do we make the same mistakes with Sloan or do we handle it better?

Sloan NEEDS to improve his skills in defense and in taking the high ball. He also needs to bulk up so that his body can take the punishment first-grade delivers. So I say, get on with it or leave.
As far as I know, he is getting on with it. Will probably not play first grade further this year and will work hard during the off/pre-season to become much better for 2023.
 

Dragon David

First Grade
Messages
9,229
Yeah Denis there must be more to the Flanno story & ban than what us fans know or read. It seems no club has even seriously considered him for a head coaching role as yet.

Maybe he’s lurking in the Dragons corridors just waiting patiently for Hook to be pushed.
Maybe!! Flanagan is a mystery as far as I can see. Something seems odd that a man like him having been a successful head coach at Cronulla is not snapped up elsewhere or mentioned as a possibility from anybody to be our head coach.

Who knows, maybe if Hook is told he isn't wanted in 2023 that they will actually sign up Flanagan. There must be something that we are not aware of and won't be made aware of.
 

Dragon David

First Grade
Messages
9,229
Thank you getsmarty. It looks to me that the club is wanting to say goodbye to Griffin. The problem as I see it, is that other than Flanagan, there doesn't appear to be any other coach good enough and experienced enough to take on the job (there might be but they are mostly rookies and one other experienced in Maguire who I don't think would suit the Dragons). Flanagan is at the Dragons and knows the systems there and the strengths and weaknesses of most players and maybe he has grown to like being part of the Dragons management.

I don't think that the job of coaching the squad is as hard as some people might think
Just improve and excel on those 3 things that Hook has failed to deliver.

We do have the nucleus of a good team. We need a couple of stronger, hard running forwards and we need structure and good discipline in our execution of our plays in attack and defence. A coach like Flanagan I am sure can do this and get us climbing the ladder.

The past couple of years including this year, we have been close but not close enough to play finals footy. I feel that with us keeping most of the same players for next year and bringing in the likes of Sullivan and Sloan on a regular basis and some other young guns from time to time, the team will be able to "synch" much better and play good and exciting footy.
 

getsmarty

Immortal
Messages
34,120
Thank you getsmarty. It looks to me that the club is wanting to say goodbye to Griffin. The problem as I see it, is that other than Flanagan, there doesn't appear to be any other coach good enough and experienced enough to take on the job (there might be but they are mostly rookies and one other experienced in Maguire who I don't think would suit the Dragons). Flanagan is at the Dragons and knows the systems there and the strengths and weaknesses of most players and maybe he has grown to like being part of the Dragons management.

I don't think that the job of coaching the squad is as hard as some people might think
Just improve and excel on those 3 things that Hook has failed to deliver.

We do have the nucleus of a good team. We need a couple of stronger, hard running forwards and we need structure and good discipline in our execution of our plays in attack and defence. A coach like Flanagan I am sure can do this and get us climbing the ladder.

The past couple of years including this year, we have been close but not close enough to play finals footy. I feel that with us keeping most of the same players for next year and bringing in the likes of Sullivan and Sloan on a regular basis and some other young guns from time to time, the team will be able to "synch" much better and play good and exciting footy.

Good summation @Dragon David .
 

justadragon

Bench
Messages
4,061
This says it all, what we need atm is a very strong BOD, with everything that is going on at the club now the BOD needs to be united, ruthless in their decision making and have a clear plan of where we are at and where we are going. There was a clear set of KPI's that were not met by the coach, a decision needs to be made. The team did not achieve what the set goals were for the year, why not ? We just cant keep on tweaking KPI's to suit the current environment eg " oh we will take this decision from the HC and make it ourselves etc" no !!! that wasnt the deal at the start and shouldnt be something that is comprimised because someone has failed to succeed in their role. For christ sake its a results driven sport, its ruthless, the BOD needs to stand strong , put the club first and NOT individuals, set a clear and uncompromising goals for the next 1, 3, 5, 10 years, and if people dont prove themselves worthy or are unable to achieve, then they must go , have we got a BOD like that, thats the million dollar question !!!!
 
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Dragon David

First Grade
Messages
9,229
This says it all, what we need atm is a very strong BOD, with everything that is going on at the club now the BOD needs to be united, ruthless in their decision making and have a clear plan of where we are at and where we are going. There was a clear set of KPI's that were not met by the coach, a decision needs to be made. The team did not achieve what the set goals were for the year, why not ? We just cant keep on tweaking KPI's to suit the current environment eg " oh we will take this decision from the HC and make it ourselves etc" no !!! that wasnt the deal at the start and shouldnt be something that is comprimised because someone has failed to succeed in their role. For christ sake its a results driven sport, its ruthless, the BOD needs to stand strong , put the club first and NOT individuals, set a clear and uncompromising goals for the next 1, 3, 5, 10 years, and if people dont prove themselves worthy or are unable to achieve, then they must go , have we got a BOD like that, thats the million dollar question !!!!
Success begins at the top. A strong and decisive Administration with clear short and long term planning objectives that are workable and practical is what our head office people have to implement. Whatever they have been doing hasn't worked so turf the old out and start with the new.
 

justadragon

Bench
Messages
4,061
Success begins at the top. A strong and decisive Administration with clear short and long term planning objectives that are workable and practical is what our head office people have to implement. Whatever they have been doing hasn't worked so turf the old out and start with the new.
Well put DD, our only issue is our admin are also our owners. We shall see.
 

Slippery Morris

First Grade
Messages
7,868
What is interesting about that article is it states that once Griffin leaves the teams then have successful years such as the Bronco's and Panthers making GF within a year or 2 later. I feel Saints can do the same with this squad because he is clearly not getting the best out of them. They are not playing to their level and the juniors especially are being blocked by old has-beens who are clearly not cutting it. I don't think they will make a GF in 2 years but will make top 8. Griffin even fought for Norman to stay so Amone is only on because Griffin did not get his way which is scary in itself. He has failed all 3 key criteria's set so that to me is a no brainer and would be a sacking in any well run organisation. Adjusting KPI's to keep a bad performer is extremely poor management.

I feel the only thing keeping him next year is the money. If they can get rid of him for peanuts or get the new coach on a cheap for next year whilst Griffin is being paid out they may get a new coach. If Flanno is keen to get back and thinks he can get the Saints up there, he should offer himself whatever wages he is on now for next year and take a bump up the following years. I think that will sway them to get him. It is all about the dollars. The Gordons are cheap skates by the looks of things and have no interest in investing just want to own the club so they can have their say.
 

Illusion

Bench
Messages
3,246
What is interesting about that article is it states that once Griffin leaves the teams then have successful years such as the Bronco's and Panthers making GF within a year or 2 later. I feel Saints can do the same with this squad because he is clearly not getting the best out of them. They are not playing to their level and the juniors especially are being blocked by old has-beens who are clearly not cutting it. I don't think they will make a GF in 2 years but will make top 8. Griffin even fought for Norman to stay so Amone is only on because Griffin did not get his way which is scary in itself. He has failed all 3 key criteria's set so that to me is a no brainer and would be a sacking in any well run organisation. Adjusting KPI's to keep a bad performer is extremely poor management.

I feel the only thing keeping him next year is the money. If they can get rid of him for peanuts or get the new coach on a cheap for next year whilst Griffin is being paid out they may get a new coach. If Flanno is keen to get back and thinks he can get the Saints up there, he should offer himself whatever wages he is on now for next year and take a bump up the following years. I think that will sway them to get him. It is all about the dollars. The Gordons are cheap skates by the looks of things and have no interest in investing just want to own the club so they can have their say.
They signed Hook to another year before a ball was kicked , so who ever agreed to do so from the CEO down should throw in money out of their own pockets for making another dumb decision ......
 

qld redvee

Juniors
Messages
1,497
We definitely need results as we are worse than the bald ones tenure.. Maybe just maybe Hook may get the heave ho on nov 1 where he only has the 1 year pay out . OR why not be creative and swap Griffins role with say pathways and slot flanno into the coaches box ?? Utilise whatever strengths griffin has to avoid a pay out . Flanno must have some players signed but un announced ( if he has been doing his job) We know flanno will fix the defence so thats half the battle already ..
 

Mjab

Juniors
Messages
968
Story today in SMH by Michael Chammas re Hook, that he has the full support of Chairman Craig Young. So he’s as good as gone!

Quote :
An influential St George Illawarra figure reached out to Cameron Ciraldo’s representatives last month to gauge the Penrith assistant coach’s appetite in taking over from Anthony Griffin at the Dragons.
Sources with knowledge of discussions confirmed the conversation had taken place, but the Dragons were unaware at the time just how advanced Phil Gould’s plan to lure Ciraldo to Belmore was.
For the second time in three years, the answer from Ciraldo was ‘thanks, but no thanks’.
At least it explains chairman Craig Young’s carefully-worded statement to News Corp last month following the Herald’s revelations that things had begun to turn sour under Griffin’s watch.
“He has my full support,” Young said at the time.
And perhaps Griffin does, but not everyone at the Dragons is convinced. This isn’t another story about Ciraldo. It’s not even about Griffin, entirely.
It’s about a club and the all too familiar predicament it finds itself in, hoping things will turn when all signs point to the opposite outcome.
Complicating matters is a realisation that their best player, Ben Hunt, is baulking at a new deal and would like his future tied to that of Griffin, who coached him as a junior back at the Broncos.
Then there is the future of young gun Jayden Sullivan, who has attracted the interest of rival clubs under the assumption he will ask for a release if Hunt extends to play on as halfback.
When the club parted ways with Paul McGregor at the end of 2020, they were backed into a corner.
The coaches they wanted to take over as his successor (Craig Fitzgibbon and Ciraldo) either weren’t willing to take the plunge or would be seen as another example of jobs for the boys (Dean Young).
Ultimately, Griffin was the best option. The offer the Dragons put forward, a two-year deal plus an option in the club’s favour, reflected their confidence, or lack thereof, in the decision they settled with.
The three-year contract that almost every new coach gets – based on a long-standing belief within the game that it takes that many seasons to rebuild a club – wasn’t on the table.
But the Dragons, nonetheless, believed that Griffin met the three criteria the board was looking for in a new coach.
Someone who was defence-minded;
Someone from a culture of success;
Someone renowned as a strict disciplinarian.
In his first two seasons in charge, Griffin has fallen short in all three categories.
The defence of the Dragons has been poor this year. Even in knocking off the lowly ranked Titans over the weekend, the Red V conceded 26 points. It was the Titans’ third-highest score of the year.
When McGregor left in 2020, the Dragons leaked an average 22.6 points per game. It’s why a high priority was put on a coach who could help plug the holes.
Unfortunately for the Dragons the average points conceded per game has risen to 24.3 in 2022 – and that in itself is an improvement on the 25.7 points the previous year.
The second criteria was a coach from a culture of success. Griffin’s record – a 55.5 per cent win record over more than 170 games at Penrith and Brisbane – was impressive.
But what is often lost when dissecting the success of Griffin-coached teams is how they perform after he is gone. The Broncos made a grand final in 2015, 12 months after he was moved on for Wayne Bennett. That is not to say the Broncos were better off without Griffin, but they were clearly a strong club after he left.
Once the dust had settled on the sex tape saga that ripped the Panthers apart, they too made a grand final within two years of Griffin's exit.
Griffin, a proud product of Rockhampton, has turned to fellow Queenslanders and his former players to help him steer the ship.
The club’s recruits reflected that. Andrew McCullough, Francis Molo, Josh McGuire, Moses Mbye, Jaydn Su’A, Tautau Moga, Michael Molo, Trent Merrin, Israel Folau ... all Queenslanders or players that had played under him.
Griffin even fought strongly, against the wishes of the club, to keep Corey Norman for another season before eventually letting him go to the Super League at the end of last year. His replacement, Talatau Amone, has proven a worth successor.
Griffin has a record of 18 wins from 46 games in charge of the Dragons – a 39 per cent win ratio. McGregor managed a 46.6 per cent win rate in his seven-year tenure as head coach.
The knock on McGregor was that perhaps he was too close to the players, and that his bond with the players often clouded his judgement and ability to impose a set of standards required to be successful at the elite level.
Griffin came in with a reputation as a no-nonsense coach – the ‘strict disciplinarian’ the Dragons were after.
That arguably went out the window the night a dozen or so players ignored his directive and gathered at Paul Vaughan’s house for a barbecue during COVID-19 lockdowns last year.
The only time the team has ignored his directives since is when they have thrown caution to the wind despite a heavy focus on a simple attacking game plan. While moments have been few and far between, it's the best the Dragons have looked all season.
Great Summary and fully agree

One key issue with the club apart from an incompetent BOD and CEO is saints are too F_-- slow to act

The key issue was that Ciraldo needed to be spoken to in the first 1/3 season or earlier , maybe with no different a result but its no use asking when they did . This is dragons stupidity 101.

If Hook only lasts 1 more season then I can live with it but who is his replacement , we have already missed the boat for the good ones

Defence is atrocious, I dont know if thats Hook or Gentle or who . They also dont seem to have any structure in defence or attack , a more worrying concern
and the reliance on total has beens or never will be's a worry
 

Mjab

Juniors
Messages
968
Yeah it's a bullshit story. The giveaway is the fact he's listed 3 requirements for a coach - all of which Fitzgibbon and Ciraldo, as ACs, would not be able to prove. They have worked in a couple of good environments, but there's nothing to convince anyone of their contribution to that.
Correct me if wrong but Fitz was defence at roosters and wasnt Ciraldo the same (Barrett attack)
both those clubs clearly have a better defensive system that Saints and the players push themselves to defend

So I would say both superior options than we have ever had since Bennett

The other comment re Fitz and Ciraldo, the players love them and WANT to play for them and with them , again havent seen that at saints since 2011
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
17,798
Interesting that much of the conversation around sacking Hook centres on our so called young guns either not improving or not getting a proper go and that then leads into the argument that Hook picks his favourites and old war horses.

Let's look at the young guns

Sullivan :
1. Missed out on playing and learning in reggies due to Covid interfering with that comp.
2. Hunt being captain, highest paid player and in his best form at 7 since coming to the club.
3. Multiple injuries that have restricted his availability.
4. Having a young and smallish body trying to cope continually at 9 would see him potentially end his career before it gets started.

Sloan:
1. Given an opportunity early and failed to get the basics of FB correct i.e catch bombs on the full, organise the defence by talking to and directing them, tackle the opposition, be proactive and show desperation and commitment in the last line.
2. Don't emulate Matt Dufty by being flashy and doing all the attacking stuff easily and being so piss poor in the other facets required to be a NRL quality FB.
3. When given another chance he again came up with another point 2 performance and showed no improvement re the requirements in point 1.

Max Feagai:
1. On the verge of potential selection but struck down with repeated injuries that have long recovery periods.
2. Needs to have match fitness to be considered ready for 1st garde and who actually would he replace considering Suli & Rava are also on the recovery trail.

Matt Feagai:
1. Got an opportunity due to his brothers injury issues and he has proved reliable and serviceable without being brilliant.
2. Has taken his opportunity and has been rewarded accordingly. In the Nighty mould of player.

Codey Ramsey:
1. Was in 1st grade and had very much up and down performances.
2. Was told what he had to work on, went back to reggies and did so and is now permanently in 1st grade.
3. Has continually improved and showing good form in all aspects of FB play.

Jackson Ford:
1. Not lived up to anywhere near all the hype that was in this place 2-3 years ago.
2. Consigned to reggies due to not improving in key areas and rather than hold onto him is on the reject list which will save any further costs by holding onto him.


Josh Kerr:
1. Been in the system for some years and still doing dumb shit.
2. Incapable of working out he has a body that can do some real damage by being committed to actually doing damage (Ashton Sims MK11)
3. Still yet to impose himself in lower grades to make it indelible that he picked in 1st grade.
4. Fitness levels questionable and lateral movement continues to be poor.

Jaiyden Hunt:
Read points 2, 3 & 4 above.

So what exactly is Hook not doing here?

All well and good all the posts going on and on and on about this and that but the reality of the situation is some of these players are not ready because of reasons out of Hooks control, also because the players themselves seem to have an expectation that they should just be in 1st grade regardless and somehow the individual things that you haven't improved on will just come good because you are in 1st grade.

Hook is certainly responsible for some very uninspiring coaching re game plan, tactics, lack of sparkling attack, also responsible for some uninspiring signings but to a large degree I do understand why the some of the so called young guns have not played more 1st grade.
 

Mjab

Juniors
Messages
968
What is interesting about that article is it states that once Griffin leaves the teams then have successful years such as the Bronco's and Panthers making GF within a year or 2 later. I feel Saints can do the same with this squad because he is clearly not getting the best out of them. They are not playing to their level and the juniors especially are being blocked by old has-beens who are clearly not cutting it. I don't think they will make a GF in 2 years but will make top 8. Griffin even fought for Norman to stay so Amone is only on because Griffin did not get his way which is scary in itself. He has failed all 3 key criteria's set so that to me is a no brainer and would be a sacking in any well run organisation. Adjusting KPI's to keep a bad performer is extremely poor management.

I feel the only thing keeping him next year is the money. If they can get rid of him for peanuts or get the new coach on a cheap for next year whilst Griffin is being paid out they may get a new coach. If Flanno is keen to get back and thinks he can get the Saints up there, he should offer himself whatever wages he is on now for next year and take a bump up the following years. I think that will sway them to get him. It is all about the dollars. The Gordons are cheap skates by the looks of things and have no interest in investing just want to own the club so they can have their say.
I wouldnt be surprised if Hook has NO KPIs in his contract

Saints dont seem to know they exist and should be held accountable to. Sack non performers and limit payouts.

No sense to extend Hook before a ball kicked this season, if he was doing well half way thru extend him then

I only know Doust , Young and Gordons names on the BOD , all not competent

The real depressing thing is the BOD /CEO are not likely to change for a long time if ever

Its not a professional club like Storm, Panthers , Broncos etc its a total rabble of amateurs with snouts in the trough
 

smi962

First Grade
Messages
5,707
If true, the fact that he wanted to re-sign Norman (on a reasonably high salary, im assuming) at the expense of developing Amone, says all you need to know about Hook. Its not like the Hunt/Sullivan situation where Hunt has been critical for the team, Norman was terrible, but he still preferred to stick with him rather than develop a talented youngster. Unbelievable.
 

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