So Its Round 5. Does Ivan Stay Or Go

[Rich102]

I think the recoveries we have seen are when the players forget about what Ivan says and just go out there to do it for themselves and each other.

 

[Micistm]

Lol, that's my feeling!
As Lonergan was saying on Bsport this morning-He's got the players he wanted- So once they're all back on deck-to be fair there's been a cruel number of injuries in some vital spots-if he can't get the team making progress it could well be curtains.

Price was on saying he re-injured/aggrievated his heel. I don't reckon he'll play again.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

he has proven himself as a good coach, with good players around him.

The acid test is how good is he with less than average players ?

It must be noted, those less than average players were all brought to the club by him. And it should also be pointed out that with all our cattle on deck and off the injured list, we'd probably be in the eight. But that's the NRL, and our depth is terrible.

Shouldn't be the case with the best part of a whole country to pick from, should it?

 

[Iafeta]

Lol, that's my feeling!
As Lonergan was saying on Bsport this morning-He's got the players he wanted- So once they're all back on deck-to be fair there's been a cruel number of injuries in some vital spots-if he can't get the team making progress it could well be curtains.

Price was on saying he re-injured/aggrievated his heel. I don't reckon he'll play again.

I don't think that's necessarily correct. Ivan himself said in the press a few weeks ago that the Warriors have had to recruit more strategically and go for sometimes journeymen type because a lot of the Australian players demand huge overs to come over. So he gets to compete in the local market, and finds it difficult to do it in Aus.

The truth of the matter is most teams are going to struggle without their best go forward man, their best organiser, their most potent attacking weapon and their captain. Some sides are struggling with just one of those components out.

The questions I have are not so much the fact we are 3 and from 5 given the personnel we have out, but its more to do with the structure. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I love watching Brian Smith or Wayne Bennett or Craig Bellamy coached sides where the players know their roles and are able to execute them with ease. Saints players say they don't struggle as much with injuries because when a bloke goes down the guy who comes in automatically knows the role, the lines, what's expected of him, because its basic common sense stuff. At the moment, our most effective back rowers ball in hand are Ta'ai and Brown, who are both extremely good at making an impact in the tackle. I'm not sure Ben Matulino is that type of player. When he was in the 20s he constantly peppered fringes and ran good lines. Mannering is the same. He's a line runner. I have a feeling Bennett would make Mannering look like a million dollars. To me, we rely so heavily on the offload and so heavily on individualistic brilliance ... but we need to build solid, effective plays in front of those plays so that the big thrills plays aren't the 'go-to' plays, but are the icing on the cake. I know we're doing very well in the line break department this year, but its probably more exemplified when we get in the opposition 20 and don't really have a structured plan of how to work over the set of six to get to the try line. I'm also concerned about the huge lull our players seem to be in when they come on in the first half, and I question what type of talk they're getting pre-game.

All in all, I still rate the guy, and I still reckon he'll be a good coach somewhere. I think he'll develop. And I think for the first few years in truth he did a good job here. Now it's time this club should be stepping up on that foundation and going all out for the title, but we're an inconsistent rabble that seems to have died down in terms of its fluency. I'm not sure whether Ivan is ready to take us to that next step. And the blokes to me who are going to suffer that the most are our centres and backrowers, who are either going to be relied on to break the line with brute strength or be average bantom weight NRL players.

 

[Iafeta]

It must be noted, those less than average players were all brought to the club by him. And it should also be pointed out that with all our cattle on deck and off the injured list, we'd probably be in the eight. But that's the NRL, and our depth is terrible.

Shouldn't be the case with the best part of a whole country to pick from, should it?

How many of those players you say are the whole country to pick from are picked up at young ages by other clubs??

We also have to work within a salary cap structure. Again, I don't think too many sides would be going that well with the cattle we've got out. Take the Tigers, it's supposed to be Benji-Lote mania there, but their halfback goes down and they go down two weeks in succession, albeit against good sides. The Broncos look like a 3rd grade team with their injury list.

I don't want to get into the habit of making excuses here as I'm as disappointed and frustrated as everyone here. The wife wants to muzzle me for anger issues during game-time I'm more or less playing devils advocate highlighting that it's quite easy to see it all one way against the guy, but we shouldn't overlook that the injuries have been ordinary.

I mean, if you look at our club... this is who we have had unavailable at various stages due to injury... granted some of them aren't that flash, but they're all potential first graders.

Elijah Taylor
Shaun Johnson
Ian Henderson
Alehana Mara
Steve Price
Wade McKinnon
Jerome Ropati
Manu Vatuvei
Brett Seymour
Jacob Lillyman
Michael Luck
Simon Mannering
Sione Lousi

That's a large list. I think someone was saying last week we had over 600 games of first grade experience on the sidelines. Thats massive.

 

[Drzoidberg]

that is almost a team in itself

 

[Dr Crane]

reckon they'd go alright too

 

[ozbash]

reckon they'd go alright too

:roll:

some of them, maybe...

 

[Revelation 3:20]

They should flick Ivan anyway. Sign up Kearney and I'm sure some Storm players would follow.

 

[Skinner]

They should flick Ivan anyway. Sign up Kearney and I'm sure some Storm players would follow.

Yeah.......and look where that got them !!!

 

[Penrose Warrior]

No quite right, we can't get them all. I guess I'm hinting that surely there are equal, if not better, options than the likes of Latimore. I can't see the point in purchasing a below-average journeyman from Australia when we have big boys over here bursting at the seams to play.

And fair point on the cattle we have out. My issue is with the likes of Moon, Lillyman (when he's on the park) and to a lesser extent Royal and the lack of impact they have had when they were trumpeted as very good buys.

 

[Skinner]

I guess this thread has gotten a little off topic after 12 pages, but that happens to the best of threads.

I woke up in the middle of the night thinking about this (thanks Ivan, it's not even my team!!!). I, and many others, have said in this thread and on other boards (everyone is talking about it) that basically, Ivan is a lousy coach. I am on record somewhere as saying that he is "a lump of wood who cannot motivate anyone around him".

It was something of a flippant comment at the time, but when I ponder it further, the motivate part of it becomes absolutely key.

Think of the great coaches through various codes over the years. Folks who were at their absolute best throughout their coaching careers. Vince Lombardi is an obvious one. Bill Shankly with the very best Liverpool side ever. Love the code or hate it, Ron Barassi in AFL. Jack Gibson - what can you say, the Master Coach. I'd even throw in Wayne Bennett, to be honest.

Now, were these guys great technical coaches who planned great set moves and sketched out fabulous game strategies ? I don't necessarily think so.

I think their (huge) differentiator was/is their ability to get right inside the minds of their players. Instilling a belief that they could not possibly lose the game. It worked in spades.

Some of these guys mentioned were practising sports physcology without even really knowing it.

Alright, after that bit of a ramble, what do I actually mean ? Well, for mine, everyone of the 16 teams in this comp has the ability to win a premiership, but obviously, some teams have never won (and I won't state the obvious). They haven't won because they have never had a winning culture or mentality. They have never had that culture or mentality because no one has ever instilled it in them. The Warriors came close once with Daniel Anderson, but in the end he blew it. He never followed through to the finish which makes him a less than great

Does the coach have to be the motivator ? I don't think so. It can be anyone close to the team...Bennett/ Kearney World Cup '08 anyone ?

So where does that leave Ivan ? Probably staying but get him some good motivational help for heavens sake.

 

[Iafeta]

Penrose, I think the likes of trumpeting Moon and Lilyman are what I'd like to call trying to polish a nugget. One was picked up based on the hope that one day he'd live up to the potential he's touted as having, and the other was picked up that hopefully he could prove it wasn't just a fluke that he got into Origin (unfortunately he can't disspell that as that was what it was). It always to me sounds like someone trumpeting a Lindsay Buckingham record, you can polish it up as much as you like but sooner or later you realise that he's far better in Fleetwood Mac.

Can't disagree with anything you said, Skinner. I don't know, he just seems very... nonchalant, very blase about the whole thing. I can't believe we can't start games good... what's up with that? How come it takes the fact that we're down by 20 till someone flicks a switch and says hang on, lets have a crack. I wonder if there ever has been a big academic report on the top coaches; Lombardi; Phil Jackson; Alex Ferguson; Arsene Wenger; Bill Shankly; what makes them 'cut it' above the rest? I'd love the Warriors to somehow tap into a Man Utd for their consistency and their processes and their organisation or a Yankees for their enormous marketability to work out some of the key elements those cultures have... I get the feeling at times we accept mediocrity. Richie Benaud says it in the 12th man CD to the boys 'you'd better drop this near enough is good enough attitude', damn straight the Warriors could adapt the same thing too. It's like they see the forest of excuses like the travel etc as being realistic precluders to us seeing success....?

 

[Skinner]

I get the feeling at times we accept mediocrity. Richie Benaud says it in the 12th man CD to the boys 'you'd better drop this near enough is good enough attitude', damn straight the Warriors could adapt the same thing too. It's like they see the forest of excuses like the travel etc as being realistic precluders to us seeing success....?

Hallelujah brother....spot on.

 

[Micistm]

That's the thing that gets me about Ivan, his very dour quiet thing going on. It's boring as hell to listen to in an interview, I just wonder how it fires up the team. At all.
Most coaches, when you listen to them in interviews and in docus fire you up. Even Bennett, although hating the media-when his guards down you can see why players love the guy. Or reading his books-The motivation comes through.
It's impossible to tell for sure, and god knows the players won't say anything while he's there. Anything that an interview could get out of say Kemp, or Witt or Fein might be perceived as sour grapes, so I guess we have to wait until various sports bios come out in a few years! ;-) It's just so hard to see Ivan really, truely pumping up a side. Even watching the vids of the players at halftime, old Ives is standing there as animated as a thunderbird puppet.
Maybe it wouldn't hurt for the Warriors to have such a shocker half, something so awful something inside Cleary snaps and he lets them have it!

 

[Penrose Warrior]

A mate of mine was told in a pub by a current Warriors player (currently on the outer) that they'd never win a comp with Ivan as coach. Just found no inspiration from him at all.

 

[Rich102]

Penrose, I think the likes of trumpeting Moon and Lilyman are what I'd like to call trying to polish a nugget. One was picked up based on the hope that one day he'd live up to the potential he's touted as having, and the other was picked up that hopefully he could prove it wasn't just a fluke that he got into Origin (unfortunately he can't disspell that as that was what it was). It always to me sounds like someone trumpeting a Lindsay Buckingham record, you can polish it up as much as you like but sooner or later you realise that he's far better in Fleetwood Mac.

Can't disagree with anything you said, Skinner. I don't know, he just seems very... nonchalant, very blase about the whole thing. I can't believe we can't start games good... what's up with that? How come it takes the fact that we're down by 20 till someone flicks a switch and says hang on, lets have a crack. I wonder if there ever has been a big academic report on the top coaches; Lombardi; Phil Jackson; Alex Ferguson; Arsene Wenger; Bill Shankly; what makes them 'cut it' above the rest? I'd love the Warriors to somehow tap into a Man Utd for their consistency and their processes and their organisation or a Yankees for their enormous marketability to work out some of the key elements those cultures have... I get the feeling at times we accept mediocrity. Richie Benaud says it in the 12th man CD to the boys 'you'd better drop this near enough is good enough attitude', damn straight the Warriors could adapt the same thing too. It's like they see the forest of excuses like the travel etc as being realistic precluders to us seeing success....?

The Warriors have gone past accepting mediocrity - they now reward it.

How many of our current team, including the coach, would find places at other clubs?

Why can Wayne Bennett attract players and Cleary can't? It's not just moving to NZ. If we had an internationally recognised coach the players would follow.

I thought Bell was going to be an international talent scout. What's he done?

We have Wiki & Fairleigh on the coaching team - both good motivators- are they being used at all.

Cleary has had his chance. Time for the club to get serious and move on.
Kearney or Bluey for 2011.

 

[Skinner]

The Warriors have gone past accepting mediocrity - they now reward it.

How many of our current team, including the coach, would find places at other clubs?

Why can Wayne Bennett attract players and Cleary can't? It's not just moving to NZ. If we had an internationally recognised coach the players would follow.

I thought Bell was going to be an international talent scout. What's he done?

We have Wiki & Fairleigh on the coaching team - both good motivators- are they being used at all.

Cleary has had his chance. Time for the club to get serious and move on.
Kearney or Bluey for 2011.

Bluey for me - can't see it happening though, but you never know. I think that Kearney is still untested. He in the situation where he is assistant to Craig Bellamy, and, lets be honest, anyone is going to look good in that situation.

 

[Martli]

And let's face it, Kearney isn't going to leave his current set up any time soon. He gets to absorb tips and tricks from an awesome coach, but still gets his own team to coach in the Kiwis were he can try it all out. He also has a decent relationship with Bennett when it comes to the Kiwis, so that's also a plus. Once he feels he's got nothing more to gain from being under Bellemy then i'm sure he'll look to move on to his own NRL or ESL team, but for now I'm sure he's really enjoying his current positions.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

How many of our current team, including the coach, would find places at other clubs?

This is a really good thought to ponder on. I often think about this, and also down the lines of 'who would be likely to be a vastly better player if they were at another club'?

There's fewer than there should be for the first one, and quite a few for the second.

Oh and we have David Fairleigh on our coaching staff?