Southern Orcas (NZ2)

[flippikat]

Without superleague there'd be even more Sydney clubs..

It all depends on whether the administration had the appetite for "no strings attached" bailouts in the 1990s and beyond pre-Superleague the likes of Ken Arthurson were openly speculating about rationalisation, yet they were just too scared to pull the trigger on it. Well, the way things were shaping in the mid '90s, market forces were probably gonna give them the opportunity... but we'll never know if they would have used it.

 

[Colk]

It all depends on whether the administration had the appetite for "no strings attached" bailouts in the 1990s and beyond pre-Superleague the likes of Ken Arthurson were openly speculating about rationalisation, yet they were just too scared to pull the trigger on it. Well, the way things were shaping in the mid '90s, market forces were probably gonna give them the opportunity... but we'll never know if they would have used it.

Exactly. They are openly speculating about relocations and mergers prior to Superleague. Another thing Flippikat is that the ARL just wouldn’t have had the money to bailout Sydney clubs and there were a fair few clubs teetering at that point so hence the discussion - the writing on the wall.

If the ARL went hell for leather and said we are introducing a Melbourne and Adelaide side and thus a full national competition then a fair few would have withered away naturally

 

[Colk]

Sorry were

 

[Pippen94]

It all depends on whether the administration had the appetite for "no strings attached" bailouts in the 1990s and beyond pre-Superleague the likes of Ken Arthurson were openly speculating about rationalisation, yet they were just too scared to pull the trigger on it. Well, the way things were shaping in the mid '90s, market forces were probably gonna give them the opportunity... but we'll never know if they would have used it.

Perth, gold coast etc would go bankrupt first. They were still paying travel for visiting teams.
Superleague brought forward forced mergers, saw South's kicked out & reduction of league to 14 teams.

 

[Pippen94]

Exactly. They are openly speculating about relocations and mergers prior to Superleague. Another thing Flippikat is that the ARL just wouldn’t have had the money to bailout Sydney clubs and there were a fair few clubs teetering at that point so hence the discussion - the writing on the wall.

If the ARL went hell for leather and said we are introducing a Melbourne and Adelaide side and thus a full national competition then a fair few would have withered away naturally

No, because South's ruling showed you just kick out teams. No club was withering away - even the bears & jets still exist & backers can be found.
Talk of relocation was around in at least the late 70's & the nswrl did nothing.

 

[flippikat]

No, because South's ruling showed you just kick out teams. No club was withering away - even the bears & jets still exist & backers can be found.
Talk of relocation was around in at least the late 70's & the nswrl did nothing.

Ah, but we're talking about excluding/relocating a club because they're completely broke.. if I recall correctly, the situation with Souths was that a number was decided (14 team competition), and after axing low hanging fruit like the Mariners, Reds & Rams, a set of criteria was designed to squeeze out some Sydney clubs.

 

[Colk]

Ah, but we're talking about excluding/relocating a club because they're completely broke.. if I recall correctly, the situation with Souths was that a number was decided (14 team competition), and after axing low hanging fruit like the Mariners, Reds & Rams, a set of criteria was designed to squeeze out some Sydney clubs.

Exactly

 

[Pippen94]

Ah, but we're talking about excluding/relocating a club because they're completely broke.. if I recall correctly, the situation with Souths was that a number was decided (14 team competition), and after axing low hanging fruit like the Mariners, Reds & Rams, a set of criteria was designed to squeeze out some Sydney clubs.

That's when super league & the ARL merged. League did shit to underperforming clubs & barely supported expansion clubs prior to that..

 

[Colk]

No, because South's ruling showed you just kick out teams. No club was withering away - even the bears & jets still exist & backers can be found.
Talk of relocation was around in at least the late 70's & the nswrl did nothing.

Perhaps the NSWRL should have done something in the 1970’s. The death of certain clubs is probably on their head really

Essentially what you are talking about with the expansion of the NSWRL to the ARL is quite analogous to the industrial revolution. You go from a semi professional competition (think of rural peasantry and specialised labour) to a national competition (think of rapid industrial development synonymous with the revolution).
Now it is only natural that a lot of Sydney clubs buffered by the relative low costs needed in a Sydney competition aren’t going to meet the costs of a national competition and weren’t going to compete with the richer clubs like the Broncos etc. It was an inevitable process, particularly as the ARL couldn’t endlessly bail out clubs. Some clubs would have eventually reached a point in the road where they would have had a choice - relocate, merge or die.

Perth, gold coast etc would go bankrupt first. They were still paying travel for visiting teams.
Superleague brought forward forced mergers, saw South's kicked out & reduction of league to 14 teams.

You are kind of undercutting your own argument there. On one hand, you are saying that Sydney clubs were strong enough to survive but yet they couldn’t pay for their own travel. What does that tell you about the financial strength of the Sydney clubs at that time. You are also suggesting that Superleague only ‘brought forward’ this process - are you now saying it was inevitable?

 

[Colk]

That's when super league & the ARL merged. League did shit to underperforming clubs & barely supported expansion clubs prior to that..

I agree. That was their biggest problem. Again though that would likely mean that they weren’t in a position to bail out clubs

 

[Perth Red]

ARL wasn't cutting clubs. That's part of why super league happened. Without super league do we get forced mergers who knows?!

ARL had been planning to cut Sydney clubs since the report in the early 90’s came out.

 

[flippikat]

ARL had been planning to cut Sydney clubs since the report in the early 90’s came out.

Now there's another thing.. I don't think much detail of that report ever came out, did it? Sure there'd be the typical "commercial sensitivity" reasons at the time.. but I'd be keen to know now (30 years later) exactly what the ARL discovered about the long term prospects of clubs.

 

[Dark Corner]

The 1982 blueprint by Arko didn't take any consideration for the Brisbane Clubs (BRL).

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Yeah, why be part of the super lucrative Sydney market when you focus solely on the gong?!

The Dragons will always have a connection to, and a fan base in Sydney which is why they will always be able to tap into the Sydney sponsorship market. The move to the Gong will occur when the region grows to a point where it gives the Dragons the room to stretch their legs that they just don't have in the crowded Sydney market. This could mean things like:

- Kogarah no longer being a viable NRL stadium and in the future WIN being more likely to receive upgrades and rebuilds which could mean that WIN Stadium is more lucrative for corporate box sales and if the stadium is state of the art, then will probably draw higher crowds and members than they'd be able to at Kogarah.

- The population grows in the Illawarra region to the point where they have a larger supporter base there and potential for further growth (because they have the area to themselves) than there is in their region of Sydney. Yes, of course they can draw support from outside of their pocket of Sydney, but again, it is a crowded market and they have 8 other NRL clubs to compete with plus the Swans, Giants and Waratahs.

 

[MugaB]

The Dragons will always have a connection to and a fan base in Sydney which is why they will always be able to tap into the Sydney sponsorship market. The move to the Gong will occur when the region grows to a point where it gives the Dragons the room to stretch their legs that they just don't have in the crowded Sydney market. This could mean things like:

- Kogarah no longer being a viable NRL stadium and in the future WIN being more likely to receive upgrades and rebuilds which could mean that WIN Stadium is more lucrative for corporate box sales and if the stadium is state of the arc, then will probably draw higher crowds and members than they'd be able to at Kogarah.

- The population grows in the Illawarra region to the point where they have a larger supporter base there and potential for further growth (because they have the area to themselves) than there is in their region of Sydney. Yes, of course they can draw support from outside of their region, but again, it is a crowded market and they have 8 other NRL clubs to compete with plus the Swans, Giants and Waratahs.

Correct, with the population growing over the next decade here in Sydney and NSW in general, clubs like the dragons will be able to tap into both, which is kinda what Penrith are doing far west of bathurst etc, and what we want Manly to hopefully do aswell someday up north around central coast, or tigers do SW around Macarthur

 

[Colk]

Correct, with the population growing over the next decade here in Sydney and NSW in general, clubs like the dragons will be able to tap into both, which is kinda what Penrith are doing far west of bathurst etc, and what we want Manly to hopefully do aswell someday up north around central coast, or tigers do SW around Macarthur

Exactly. It’s really just thinking ahead and getting an advantage and avenues of growth. Penrith have done a fantastic job of linking up with Bathurst and the Blue Mountains regions because they have understood they are never going to be a club with a mass load of corporates like some clubs

 

[Perth Red]

The Bradley report in 1992 proposed a 14 team national comp with four or five teams from Sydney, two from Brisbane, three New South WalesCountry teams, Queensland Country and Auckland.

the original SL offer in 1995 to arl proposed 12 clubs with 4 Sydney teams and a 20 team second division. The franchises would be based in Sydney (4), Queensland (2), Newcastle, Canberra, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and Auckland (1

the 90’s was our chance to develop a national compact competition, we missed it and may never get there again.

 

[Pippen94]

Perhaps the NSWRL should have done something in the 1970’s. The death of certain clubs is probably on their head really

Essentially what you are talking about with the expansion of the NSWRL to the ARL is quite analogous to the industrial revolution. You go from a semi professional competition (think of rural peasantry and specialised labour) to a national competition (think of rapid industrial development synonymous with the revolution).
Now it is only natural that a lot of Sydney clubs buffered by the relative low costs needed in a Sydney competition aren’t going to meet the costs of a national competition and weren’t going to compete with the richer clubs like the Broncos etc. It was an inevitable process, particularly as the ARL couldn’t endlessly bail out clubs. Some clubs would have eventually reached a point in the road where they would have had a choice - relocate, merge or die.



You are kind of undercutting your own argument there. On one hand, you are saying that Sydney clubs were strong enough to survive but yet they couldn’t pay for their own travel. What does that tell you about the financial strength of the Sydney clubs at that time. You are also suggesting that Superleague only ‘brought forward’ this process - are you now saying it was inevitable?

I didn't say any of that. I said ARL were loathe to act. Ur making case game was in trouble in early 90's but were happy with side that showed no interest in moving game forward. I don't think you ppl know what you're arguing for..

The Dragons will always have a connection to, and a fan base in Sydney which is why they will always be able to tap into the Sydney sponsorship market. The move to the Gong will occur when the region grows to a point where it gives the Dragons the room to stretch their legs that they just don't have in the crowded Sydney market. This could mean things like:

- Kogarah no longer being a viable NRL stadium and in the future WIN being more likely to receive upgrades and rebuilds which could mean that WIN Stadium is more lucrative for corporate box sales and if the stadium is state of the art, then will probably draw higher crowds and members than they'd be able to at Kogarah.

- The population grows in the Illawarra region to the point where they have a larger supporter base there and potential for further growth (because they have the area to themselves) than there is in their region of Sydney. Yes, of course they can draw support from outside of their pocket of Sydney, but again, it is a crowded market and they have 8 other NRL clubs to compete with plus the Swans, Giants and Waratahs.

Saturation thing is just a creation of ppl on this board who prefer dots on map. Clubs would've have moved already to gosford or the gong if the world worked like that. Businesses want a presence in Sydney so it's still more lucrative there.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I didn't say any of that. I said ARL were loathe to act. Ur making case game was in trouble in early 90's but were happy with side that showed no interest in moving game forward. I don't think you ppl know what you're arguing for..




Saturation thing is just a creation of ppl on this board who prefer dots on map. Clubs would've have moved already to gosford or the gong if the world worked like that. Businesses want a presence in Sydney so it's still more lucrative there.

I'm certainly not suggesting the Dragons move to the gong full-time tomorrow and I certainly think the time for culling clubs is well past us. But I do think over the next couple of decades they will see the growth of the Illawarra region as a real asset to them. Someone may also come to see that in the Central Coast too in a few decades. It gives a club a higher ceiling for growth and that club will always have their traditional links back to Sydney.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

The Bradley report in 1992 proposed a 14 team national comp with four or five teams from Sydney, two from Brisbane, three New South WalesCountry teams, Queensland Country and Auckland.

the original SL offer in 1995 to arl proposed 12 clubs with 4 Sydney teams and a 20 team second division. The franchises would be based in Sydney (4), Queensland (2), Newcastle, Canberra, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and Auckland (1

the 90’s was our chance to develop a national compact competition, we missed it and may never get there again.

I wonder which teams would have made the cut if the Bradley Report was implemented?

Broncos, Crushers
Newcastle, Illawarra, Central Coast
NQ Cowboys
Warriors
Sydney would be tough... if we assume the Bears went to Gosford to take one of the Country NSW slots, and we assume that Balmain went broke they would have to kick Wests, Souths, St George and Manly (the clubs that found themselves in a position to have to merge) and they'd be left with Roosters, Cronulla, Canterbury, Parra, Penrith. The problem they would have is that Souths would challenge in court and get back in, which would open the door for everyone else that was still financially viable to do the same thing.

The SL proposal seemed like a better one for a) creating a national comp and b) preserving the roots and traditions of the NSWRL comp, rather than the new ARL / NRL comp trying to do both. That would probably look like:

Broncos, Cowboys
Newcastle
Canberra
Melbourne
Adelaide
Perth
Warriors
4 new Sydney franchises owned by the NSWRL clubs

Then the 20 team second division comprising Norths Bears, Manly, Roosters, Souths Rabbits, St George, Cronulla, Illawarra, Canterbury, Parra, Wests Magpies, Balmain, Penrith, Redcliffe, Wynnum Manly, Souths Magpies, Logan Scorpions, Ipswich Jets, Easts Tigers, Gold Coast-Tweed Seagulls, Norths Devils. This league preserves the heritage of the NSWRL and the BRL.