Southern Orcas (NZ2)

[Perth Red]

Yet that's exactly what the NRL and Perth club are/should be signing up to achieve if they take on the region...

Nobody is saying it needs to happen instantly, or that it won't be difficult or costly, but it is your (ARLC, NRL, WARL, and future Perth NRL club's) job to oversee the governance and growth of the sport in WA, where as PNG is PNG's concern and, broadly speaking, should remain so.

Beneficial to whom? The Perth NRL club or RL as a whole?

Because it seems to me that that would be very beneficial to the Perth side, but not so beneficial to PNG or RL as a whole, and your first interest may be to the success of a Perth NRL side at the expense of all else, but it shouldn't be the NRL's...

Besides, all those benefits can be achieved simply by incentivising the NRL clubs to heavily scout PNG, which would be as simple as finding a way to make getting visas for Papuan players easier because that tends to be the major hurdle in getting Papuans into the NRL system anyway.

Disagree, it could be massive for rl in png. The more png players in nrl and the stronger the kumuls the more interest in RL in that country. Look at how mad they go for olam and the other png lads that have made it. Like I said the kids also get access to better coaching which strengthens the quality of the digi cup teams with those kids who don’t make first grade. Reality is PNG is never getting an nrl club so having a direct pathway like this is of great benefit to the game there. Same way any future Fiji development will benefit from a direct pathway. Having a direct academy system like this would help overcome the visa issues.

as we can see from where first graders come from into the nrl, 99% of them come from systems run by the nrl clubs, that is the way it is so if we want to see more talent from these area they need the direct pathways, not just scouting.
many epl and European soccer teams have academies just like this set up all over the world looking for the next Ronaldo.

 

[Foreign Legion]

This again is the bias again from PR, basically its lets get papuan juniors and play them as perth/WA reserve graders.... heres a thought, why don't you get the best 50 Western Australians and train them instead..PNG is miles away yet instead of them getting their own pathway into the NRL, you want them to via perth to boost WAs chances of a license... it ludicrous!

The fact that port moresby is an hour flight away from cairns... roughly 800kms,
....Perth is over 4000kms away

Just build a bullet trian from Perth to Cairns and then a Premier Gladys approved ferries from Cairns to Port Moresby (no biggie)

 

[Perth Red]

So why was the stadium built then.

Because back in the early 90’s it looked the only survival hope for a failing bears. Desperation is the word!
Time and revenue needed have moved on and a small regional city is going to be very hard to sustain a nrl club in, even Newcastle struggled without pokies and that’s much bigger and much stronger fan base. Only survived due to a pokie club buying them.

 

[Colk]

Just build a bullet trian from Perth to Cairns and then a Premier Gladys approved ferries from Cairns to Port Moresby (no biggie)

Might be hard now that Gladys is no longer the premier.

Also my god the cost for that would be astronomical. The bean counter types in Canberra and the press would absolutely lose their minds at the first whiff of something like that.

 

[Perth Red]

Just build a bullet trian from Perth to Cairns and then a Premier Gladys approved ferries from Cairns to Port Moresby (no biggie)

Sounds about as likely as cairns getting an nrl club and playing over in Port Moresby Lol. A train Tunnel would be better though so as not damage the pristine environment between perth and cairns.

 

[Colk]

Disagree, it could be massive for rl in png. The more png players in nrl and the stronger the kumuls the more interest in RL in that country. Look at how mad they go for olam and the other png lads that have made it. Like I said the kids also get access to better coaching which strengthens the quality of the digi cup teams with those kids who don’t make first grade. Reality is PNG is never getting an nrl club so having a direct pathway like this is of great benefit to the game there. Same way any future Fiji development will benefit from a direct pathway. Having a direct academy system like this would help overcome the visa issues.

as we can see from where first graders come from into the nrl, 99% of them come from systems run by the nrl clubs, that is the way it is so if we want to see more talent from these area they need the direct pathways, not just scouting.
many epl and European soccer teams have academies just like this set up all over the world looking for the next Ronaldo.

I agree with you (to a degree). You would set up a semi professional competition like the NSW Cup over there but instead of one club incentivise all clubs to take a punt on talent from the Pacific Islands by giving them dispensations

The amount of clubs we have in the NRL far outweigh those in Rugby Union, so there is more opportunity for Fijians, Papua New Guineans, Tongans etc in our game than it is in Rugby Union. We just need to sell it to them as such

 

[Perth Red]

I agree with you (to a degree). You would set up a semi professional competition like the NSW Cup over there but instead of one club incentivise all clubs to take a punt on talent from the Pacific Islands by giving them dispensations

The amount of clubs we have in the NRL far outweigh those in Rugby Union, so there is more opportunity for Fijians, Papua New Guineans, Tongans etc in our game than it is in Rugby Union. We just need to sell it to them as such

We kind of have the beginnings if the structure we need but would take some massive changes to see it where it could be ie

third division amateur state/country leagues. with a challenge cup style comp for the winners of each stae/country comp each year

Genuine second division ft professional international comp (for places like Fiji,png, perth, bears, jets, Sunshine Coast, gosford etc)

Nrl reserve grade

NRL

 

[MugaB]

We kind of have the beginnings if the structure we need but would take some massive changes to see it where it could be ie

third division amateur state/country leagues. with a challenge cup style comp for the winners of each stae/country comp each year

Genuine second division ft professional international comp (for places like Fiji,png, perth, bears, jets, Sunshine Coast, gosford etc)

Nrl reserve grade

NRL

Pirates would still suck as they do in SG ball, even if there was an NRL reserve grade

 

[The Great Dane]

Disagree, it could be massive for rl in png.

Of course you do, you're so unbelievably biased when it comes to anything to do with Perth that it's impossible for you to look at any such subjects objectively...

Here's the the thing though, you don't require a singular club effectively owning PNG like it's their fiefdom to achieve anything you want to achieve in PNG.

as we can see from where first graders come from into the nrl, 99% of them come from systems run by the nrl clubs, that is the way it is so if we want to see more talent from these area they need the direct pathways, not just scouting.

Firstly Scouting is a direct pathway. A scouted player is fed directly into an NRL development system, i.e. exactly what you want, and there's no reason why the NRL couldn't get to the point where it's holding annual/regular combines across the world.

Secondly, putting RU to one side, the reason 99% of talent comes through the NRL systems is because apart from the SL academies they are basically the only professional RL development system on the planet. However there's no reason why that couldn't change given time and resources, but that is a totally different discussion.

many epl and European soccer teams have academies just like this set up all over the world looking for the next Ronaldo.

Yeah, and it's destroyed the development of local leagues in developing nations across the world.

That may be good for the EPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, and all the other European leagues, but having all you're best talent Shanghaied to the other side of the world before you can get any value out of them hasn't been good for anybody else.

 

[The Great Dane]

I agree with you (to a degree). You would set up a semi professional competition like the NSW Cup over there but instead of one club incentivise all clubs to take a punt on talent from the Pacific Islands by giving them dispensations

You actually agree with me, but whatever.

That semi-pro comp already exists; The Digicel Cup. Now all that needs to happen is for a way to be found to make it easier for young Papuan sports men to get Australian visas then the clubs can go wild.

That way the Digicel Cup clubs can do the work of discovering and developing talent, then the NRL clubs can come in on top and sign the best and feed it into the NRL system.
No need for a Perth club to be created, it to be effectively given exclusive rights to PNG as it's region to develop, for them to then invest in expensive infrastructure to create an academy in PNG, etc, etc.

The amount of clubs we have in the NRL far outweigh those in Rugby Union, so there is more opportunity for Fijians, Papua New Guineans, Tongans etc in our game than it is in Rugby Union. We just need to sell it to them as such

When it comes to the talent pool the NRL isn't just competing with Super Rugby though...

I assure you that there're plenty of opportunities for PI's in French, Japanese, British, and to a lesser extent in other RU competitions like the MLR as well, and those opportunities are often more lucrative as well.

It's why you see a pattern of Fijians in particular breaking out in the NRL, then moving to Top 14 or Top League for a payday as quickly as possible.

 

[siv]

One of the advantages of a NRL RG is you can setup proper 2nd tier comps that can compete on a equal playing field

Qld Cup (incl Darwin/Perth)
NSW Cup (incl Adelaide/NSW Country)
NZ Cup
PNG Cup
Pacific Club Cup (based around Fiji/Tonga/Samoa/New Caledonia)

Winners playing in a Oceania regional Champions League

 

[The Great Dane]

One of the advantages of a NRL RG is you can setup proper 2nd tier comps that can compete on a equal playing field

Qld Cup (incl Darwin/Perth)
NSW Cup (incl Adelaide/NSW Country)
NZ Cup
PNG Cup
Pacific Club Cup (based around Fiji/Tonga/Samoa/New Caledonia)

Winners playing in a Oceania regional Champions League

With the potential exception of the international stuff (though a semi-pro/pro Pacific competition is a fantasy), an NRL reserve grade makes it borderline impossible to make those competitions financially sustainable or competitive as products.

That means they'd run at a significant loss and would have to be underwritten by somebody (probably the NRL) to exist, and that's not sustainable or reasonable long term. All because some morons have been deluded into believing that the average NRL fan gives two shits about second grade, and will pay for it, when aside from a tiny minority they don't and never have.

If you want those competitions to exist in any meaningful way then the NRL needs to move to some form of minor league system, but that will probably never happen outside of Queensland because the NRL clubs want as little competition as possible and complete control over the talent pool. So once again self interest and a Sydney first attitude reigns supreme and RL is worse for it.

 

[Perth Red]

You actually agree with me, but whatever.

That semi-pro comp already exists; The Digicel Cup. Now all that needs to happen is for a way to be found to make it easier for young Papuan sports men to get Australian visas then the clubs can go wild.

That way the Digicel Cup clubs can do the work of discovering and developing talent, then the NRL clubs can come in on top and sign the best and feed it into the NRL system.
No need for a Perth club to be created, it to be effectively given exclusive rights to PNG as it's region to develop, for them to then invest in expensive infrastructure to create an academy in PNG, etc, etc.

problem is it doesn’t work like that. Like I said tell me how may nrl first graders are signed from outside nrl direct pathway set ups. hardly any is the answer. Without a direct pathway, which Perth would be the perfect opportunity for, there is little chance we will see a number of png players making it in the nrl.

 

[Perth Red]

With the potential exception of the international stuff (though a semi-pro/pro Pacific competition is a fantasy), an NRL reserve grade makes it borderline impossible to make those competitions financially sustainable or competitive as products.

That means they'd run at a significant loss and would have to be underwritten by somebody (probably the NRL) to exist, and that's not sustainable or reasonable long term. All because some morons have been deluded into believing that the average NRL fan gives two shits about second grade, and will pay for it, when aside from a tiny minority they don't and never have.

If you want those competitions to exist in any meaningful way then the NRL needs to move to some form of minor league system, but that will probably never happen outside of Queensland because the NRL clubs want as little competition as possible and complete control over the talent pool. So once again self interest and a Sydney first attitude reigns supreme and RL is worse for it.

A second division doesn’t have to attract nrl fans. if clubs can attract 5-10k fans to a game and tv is interested in showing some of it then it can have some level of sustainability, but nrl would need to chip in also no doubt.

 

[The Great Dane]

problem is it doesn’t work like that. Like I said tell me how may nrl first graders are signed from outside nrl direct pathway set ups. hardly any is the answer. Without a direct pathway, which Perth would be the perfect opportunity for, there is little chance we will see a number of png players making it in the nrl.

Tons of players in the NRL started outside NRL pathways before being poached somewhere along way, to pretend that's not the case is just feigning ignorance. Basically every player born and raised in Fiji came into the league the way I'm suggesting Papuans should (Semi Radradra, Viliame Kikau, Suliasi Vunivalu, Etonia Nabuli, Sisa Waqa, all the way back to guys like Noa Nadruku in the 90s), and a lot of players, Kiwis in particular, are poached from Union in basically the same way.

Depending on what part of the world we are talking about, most NRL players got their start outside of NRL systems, and even a lot of players within heartlands jump around or are poached from other systems. You'd be hard pressed to find many players born and raised in Canberra whom weren't in the Brumbies development system, or another RU system, at one point or another, often as they were simultaneously in the Raiders system, when they were young.

The only thing preventing this happening with Papuan players is that the clubs have traditionally found it much more difficult to get visas for Papuan players. I don't know how the NRL clubs can get around that road block, but that's the real issue, not some BS about needing NRL club owned and run elite pathways on the ground in PNG.

 

[Colk]

You actually agree with me, but whatever.

That semi-pro comp already exists; The Digicel Cup. Now all that needs to happen is for a way to be found to make it easier for young Papuan sports men to get Australian visas then the clubs can go wild.

That way the Digicel Cup clubs can do the work of discovering and developing talent, then the NRL clubs can come in on top and sign the best and feed it into the NRL system.
No need for a Perth club to be created, it to be effectively given exclusive rights to PNG as it's region to develop, for them to then invest in expensive infrastructure to create an academy in PNG, etc, etc.

When it comes to the talent pool the NRL isn't just competing with Super Rugby though...

I assure you that there're plenty of opportunities for PI's in French, Japanese, British, and to a lesser extent in other RU competitions like the MLR as well, and those opportunities are often more lucrative as well.

It's why you see a pattern of Fijians in particular breaking out in the NRL, then moving to Top 14 or Top League for a payday as quickly as possible.

Totally forgot about the Digicel Cup.

On the second point, this is where the ARLC need to be innovative. The salary cap is a pretty poor system in relation to this as it doesn’t allow clubs to compete better financially in terms of talent from the Pacific Islands (and they will need to be if they wish to expand the number of teams as well)

 

[The Great Dane]

A second division doesn’t have to attract nrl fans. if clubs can attract 5-10k fans to a game and tv is interested in showing some of it then it can have some level of sustainability, but nrl would need to chip in also no doubt.

Firstly, yes it does have to attract NRL fans. Basically every RL fan in country is going to be an NRL fan on some level, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

I was talking about NRL members and fans from the clubs target audience whom actively support their club, of whom 95%+ couldn't care less about anything other than the first grade Telstra Premiership team, which is evidenced by how miniscule attendance for any games on NRL gameday besides the NRL are.

If you effectively make the state leagues third tier competitions by placing a reserve grade on top of them you're killing any hope of independent clubs being viable within said competitions. At that point you'd basically be asking bush sides to find the money and resources to compete in a state wide league with less exposure than the NSW and Qld cup currently get, which just isn't feasible.

The Qld Cup is effectively a minor league system, and it works, in fact most would argue that it works better than the NSW Cup which is effectively a glorified reserve grade.

 

[siv]

A second division doesn’t have to attract nrl fans. if clubs can attract 5-10k fans to a game and tv is interested in showing some of it then it can have some level of sustainability, but nrl would need to chip in also no doubt.

2nd tier will never get 10k. NRL wont allow a product to be in direct opposition to the NRL

Today they operate at 1-2k fans. Most of these would care uf NRL players play or not. They go because its down the road

So these comps will always operate around $500k to $1 mil max

So the way to support remote clubs is to introduce a travel allowance eg $125k grant for NSW Country divisions and $250k for Adelaide, Perth, Darwin

You would do something similar in NZ and for Pacific Cup

The trick is to develop the revenue streams using companies like Vodafone in the Pacific and Sky in NZ

 

[siv]

Firstly, yes it does have to attract NRL fans. Basically every RL fan in country is going to be an NRL fan on some level, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

I was talking about NRL members and fans from the clubs target audience whom actively support their club, of whom 95%+ couldn't care less about anything other than the first grade Telstra Premiership team, which is evidenced by how miniscule attendance for any games on NRL gameday besides the NRL are.

If you effectively make the state leagues third tier competitions by placing a reserve grade on top of them you're killing any hope of independent clubs being viable within said competitions. At that point you'd basically be asking bush sides to find the money and resources to compete in a state wide league with less exposure than the NSW and Qld cup currently get, which just isn't feasible.

The Qld Cup is effectively a minor league system, and it works, in fact most would argue that it works better than the NSW Cup which is effectively a glorified reserve grade.

The demise of the Qld clubs since the end if NYC has been a direct result of their multiple feeder arrangements ie Qld Cup

So I wouldn't boast that it works

 

[The Great Dane]

Totally forgot about the Digicel Cup.

On the second point, this is where the ARLC need to be innovative. The salary cap is a pretty poor system in relation to this as it doesn’t allow clubs to compete better financially in terms of talent from the Pacific Islands (and they will need to be if they wish to expand the number of teams as well)

If you want a fair system you need a salary cap. Of course the salary cap has been so badly subverted at this point that it's borderline meaningless, but the point still stands.

The hyper focus on talent pools in the PI's, and NZ to a lesser extent, over the past 20ish years is missing the forest for the trees and badly hurting the game on home soil as well.

In NSW and Qld alone more talent with NRL potential is missed or dropped in a year because of lack of spots in the system than the PI's will produce in five... That's without even getting into the 'affiliated states' which are huge markets where we do basically no junior development.