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Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

elyod138

Bench
Messages
3,063
What we know is that his parents are both alive, that he was training to be a Jedi, and that he some how ended up murdering his fellow students because he started worshipping an old mask of Vaders so he could finish what Vader started (so.... Bring back padme?).

His motives are extremely weak and we get no sense he has suffered loss of any magnitude to just him turning into a genocidal nut bag, so to me he doesn't really qualify as terribly nuanced based on what we know and what has been hinted at.

To be honest, the more I thought about his character after the movie, the more I just felt disappointed and almost annoyed... The guy feels like he could have been in f**king Twilight he's so badly written.

Again, you're reading into his motives without knowing his full back story.

I think maybe you misread the character and missed the whole arc about the inner struggle going on of him trying to fight off the light side of the force, the antithesis of Luke and Anakin trying to fight off the dark side. He's a force sensitive individual with the most notorious sith lord in recent history as his grandfather.

The inner struggle you see is because of the difference sides of the force pulling him in different directions, not because he had bad parents. This struggle ends when he kills Han towards the end of the movie and he embraces the dark side.
 
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RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
Again, you're reading into his motives without knowing his full back story.

I think maybe you misread the character and missed the whole arc about the inner struggle going on of him trying to fight off the light side of the force, the antithesis of Luke and Anakin trying to fight off the dark side. He's a force sensitive individual with the most notorious sith lord in recent history as his grandfather.

The inner struggle you see is because of the difference sides of the force pulling him in different directions, not because he had bad parents. This struggle ends when he kills Han towards the end of the movie and he embraces the dark side.

Yes, that's what the movie tries to tell us, but Ren's actions only ever reflect his embrace of the dark side and we're given no compelling reason why he is "struggling against the light" other than some lazy writing aimed to give us the impression he's more interesting than he really is.

That's the problem here. It's not enough to simply say someone is torn; you have to demonstrate it and explain both why they're torn and why someone would embrace a bunch of Nazis. They don't. All we're given are a bunch of lame ass angsty teen cliches
 

Aragorn

First Grade
Messages
6,764
Don't forget guys, he was seduced into the dark side by Snoke. Lelia herself said it was all Snoke when talking to Han, so it sounds like there wasn't any life changing event, just a very powerful manipulator who somehow got to Ben and planted the idea that the dark side was his to lead. Theres enough ingredients there for him to turn, probably even more than Anakin who had no history with the dark side and was surrounded by Jedi's including the all powerful Yoda.

Ben was weak, but not as weak as his grandfather.
 

Zoidberg

First Grade
Messages
6,513
As has been mentioned, Ren has the final lightsaber fights with a crossbow blaster hole in his side!

I think part of the appeal of the dark side is power. He wants to be as powerful as Vader, maybe part of his seduction was promising he will be more than Vader, but only if he turns.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
32,020
Why does he need anymore motivation than just the dark side itself in order to turn? My view was always that all Jedi battle with the dark side of the force, as simply
Being able to control the force brings with it the ability to use it selfishly and thus delve into the dark side. It's standard "with great power comes great responsibility" stuff

What was the emperor's deep anguish that forced him to the dark side? What was Snoke's? Is Roostah cracking a hissy fit about them as well?

In Jedi, Luke shows how easily it can be to be seduced by dark tendencies based on nothing more than allowing his anger to control him while fighting Vader. Only the shitty prequels gave us the notion that terrible tragedy is required in order to turn someone with the stupid "I need to stop my wife from dying" garbage.
 

strong_latte

Juniors
Messages
1,665
Why does he need anymore motivation than just the dark side itself in order to turn? My view was always that all Jedi battle with the dark side of the force, as simply
Being able to control the force brings with it the ability to use it selfishly and thus delve into the dark side. It's standard "with great power comes great responsibility" stuff

What was the emperor's deep anguish that forced him to the dark side? What was Snoke's? Is Roostah cracking a hissy fit about them as well?

In Jedi, Luke shows how easily it can be to be seduced by dark tendencies based on nothing more than allowing his anger to control him while fighting Vader. Only the shitty prequels gave us the notion that terrible tragedy is required in order to turn someone with the stupid "I need to stop my wife from dying" garbage.
Palpating is an archetypal "absolute" villain, in that he's effectively painted as evil incarnate. Everything about him screams death and decay. He's not a real person, he's like Superman; an unrealistic ideal of an extreme. In that sense he doesn't need a motivation any more than his simple lust for power.

The reason people are annoyed with Darth Emo in this movie is because they've attempted to make him a real person with real motivations, but the type of person they've created comes across more as just a bundle of Young Adult novel coming of age archetype nonsense.

I read somewhere else that Abrams may have been trying to create a character that is loosely based on young assholes who go and join ISIS, and if that's the case I kinda get it. All the same I wish he'd have gone down a more interesting path with a villain that had genuine depth.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
So you don't like Kylo Ren RoosTah? Is that what you've been trying to tell us?

Ren is becoming this series' Jar Jar for me already. I just can't take him seriously.

The reason people are annoyed with Darth Emo in this movie is because they've attempted to make him a real person with real motivations, but the type of person they've created comes across more as just a bundle of Young Adult novel coming of age archetype nonsense.

:lol: "Darth Emo" - I'm so stealing that.
 

shiznit

Coach
Messages
14,806
I really don't get this notion that he's "nuanced" ... he's as nuanced as your average school shooter, which is what I get the impression his character is based on. I've never seen Driver in any other role, so I don't know what kind of actor he is, but his performance didn't really do much for me, and he just looked completely wrong in the role for mine in this and so as a villain I just found him so boring and annoying and apparently so did plenty of other people.

I think the problem partly lies in him being such a young privileged white kid with a princess mother and hero dad... just kinda makes him more of a dick with an inferiority complex than anything genuinely menacing. He's too young to have really been through much, and his major gripe is his dad was a "disappointment" FFS. Then, to cap off his sandy-vag attempt at villainy he gets his arse handed to him by some chick who has no training in the force TWICE and carries on like a total little bitch both times, so for me I find the notion anyone finds him either interesting, "nuanced" or intimidating kinda weird. He's a cliched troubled upper-middle class teen that doesn't know how good they have it; utterly predictable, shallow and moronic in the extreme.

It's funny, but I also am often very critical of the MCU for having very dull and uninteresting villains too, but I've been watching Daredevil the TV series lately, and I've got to say that if you want an example of a genuinely interesting and layered villain, Fisk is a genuinely worthy example. In him you have someone who comes with a genuine struggle in him and who makes you even feel a little ambivalent about the notion he could get taken down. Unlike Ren, he also comes from a place that makes his ruthlessness and drive almost reasonable.
I find that criticism really weird TBH...

You basically rubbish Adam Driver's performance... Yet all your critiques are based on the writing of the character.

Adam driver was playing the character that was written... And IMO played it extremely well... He combined a level of vulnerability in the character to offset an arrogance which isn't necessarily easy to pull off.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
I find that criticism really weird TBH...

You basically rubbish Adam Driver's performance... Yet all your critiques are based on the writing of the character.

Adam driver was playing the character that was written... And IMO played it extremely well... He combined a level of vulnerability in the character to offset an arrogance which isn't necessarily easy to pull off.

Mostly my problem is with the writing of the character, but all the same I don't get people talking about Driver as delivering a great performance because to me it was just very .... meh. It wasn't awful, it just wasn't terribly engaging.

Part of the problem may be because when he took off his mask I almost laughed when I saw his face, but I dunno... in that role he really wasn't too convincing, even accounting for the writing.
 

strong_latte

Juniors
Messages
1,665
To be fair he spends a lot of the movie behind the lame helmet with that lame ransom phone call voice thing, but yeah I have to say I found pretty well everyone else more engaging from an acting standpoint. I guess there's only so much one can do with Emo though...
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257

Walt Flanigan

Referee
Messages
20,727
Actually one of my favourite scenes of the movie is Kylo Ren being caught off guard by Rey's strength when trying to get into her head. Ren failing to hide the look of shock and fear was played out really well by Driver
 

Aragorn

First Grade
Messages
6,764
Part of the problem may be because when he took off his mask I almost laughed when I saw his face, but I dunno... in that role he really wasn't too convincing, even accounting for the writing.

Rey probably thought the same.

But isn't that what JJ wanted ? what were you expecting ? some hideous creature as oppose to a young, timid man who as Rey put it - is scared he will never live up to Darth Vader?

I truly hope he changes completely to a more dark and sinister villian next time. the huge scar on his face and perhaps an eye patch will help. This will be the evolution of Ben into the leader of the dark side - which is just a rip off of Anakin Skywalkers journey.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
Rey probably thought the same.

But isn't that what JJ wanted ? what were you expecting ? some hideous creature as oppose to a young, timid man who as Rey put it - is scared he will never live up to Darth Vader?

I truly hope he changes completely to a more dark and sinister villian next time. the huge scar on his face and perhaps an eye patch will help. This will be the evolution of Ben into the leader of the dark side - which is just a rip off of Anakin Skywalkers journey.

I didn't really expect him to be some ghoulish creature, but if they were going to make him a more human character, he didn't have to cast someone that makes you laugh when you see his goofy face.
 

Aragorn

First Grade
Messages
6,764
I didn't really expect him to be some ghoulish creature, but if they were going to make him a more human character, he didn't have to cast someone that makes you laugh when you see his goofy face.

famous last words - next year he'll be tagged " worlds sexiest man" for all I know.

Any girls here who think he has sex appeal?
 

beave

Coach
Messages
15,680
C'mon, how can you not be intimidated by this......

images


I prefered to call him Darth Ga Ga to be bluntly honest.......
 

Jono078

Referee
Messages
21,201
Just watched this.

I'm not a Star Wars fan, haven't seen all the films. I only ever remember watching Return of the Jedi from start to finish, actually.

LOVED this movie! I feel like I got enough of the references and it was just overall a fun film and I definitely can't wait for the sequel.
 

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