The Forbidden Game-insightful book on what has & can happen

[Bronco Rob]

So who were they? or is it more supposition?

Please, you're not that stupid are you, I've just stated it was the ministry of defence, did you need names and addresses? Was David Hincliffe's book 'Rugby's Class War' just supposition as well? Easy argument to come back with isn't it, any comment can be claimed as merely assumptions.

Why do you keep up with this repititous tune about supposition, feel like I'm back at Uni, do we need to back every statement with sources, maybe even a bibliography after each post?

 

[russ13]

Even in Australia union was the official 'rugby' code of the military. The following is an extract from the book "The Sportsmen of Changi" by David Blackburn about the rugby codes at Changi Camp during the war.

Rugby at Changi

At Changi, rugby union does not seem to have fulfilled its traditional role as an avenue for rivalry between Australia & Britain. Just as Australian Rules overtook rugby union as the game ordinary Australian POWs preferred to play among themselves, so too did rugby league. Surprising, it was rugby league that was played among the Australian units and not rugby union.

Merve Neil was a player in the 2/10th Field Regiment, which led the Changi rugby league competition. Neil recalled, 67 years later at his Brisbane home, how he played rugby league in Changi when he was 22 years old:

It was odd I played rugby league in Changi and not rugby union, as the official game was rugby union. I was a winger & I cannot recall a signal lineout, so I could not have played rugby union.


Rugby league was not supported or officially played in the AIF, despite its being popular among the men, particularly the Queenslanders, and in spite of protests from rugby league club organisations.

There were several reasons why ordinary soldiers preferred to play and watch rugby league rather than rugby union. Rugby union was perceived as the game of the ‘silvertails’ or the upper clases, and therefore also of the army high command, the people the ordinary soldier blamed for their defeat in Malaya. Rugby league was seen as the ‘game of the masses.’
After the surrender of Singapore, the army high command found it difficult to regain the respect of the ordinary soldiers and were in no position to restrict them to the official game of rugby union for no real reason. More pragmatically, the fast flow of rugby league made it a game both players and pectators preferred. The kind of tactics commonly used in rugby union at the time tended to produce a slower game.

However, it was not just Changi that rugby league became popular. WWII helped spread rugby league more widely, as many me in the armed services preferred it to rugby union.

...there were reasons why elite rugby union players were prepared to switch to rugby league inside Ghangi. As noted most of the Australian POWs preferred rugby league to rugby union...

Among the many converts from rugby union was Captain Gordon King Marshall, a young British doctor in the Hospital area. He recorded in his diary his ‘conversion; from Cambridge University rugby union to Changi rugby league devotee. It was a gradual process that occurred over several months. On Tuesday 4th May 1942, Marshall described his first encounter with rugby league at Changi:”This evening I went down and watched the Aussies play in their Rugby League game. Quite amusing. I also had a short run around in preparation for tomorrow (A British RU game).”

On Thursday, 23 September 1943, Marshall and the other staff of the Roberts Barrack Hospital put a team in the Australian Rugby League competition. They were mainly RU players and took a while to understand the differences between the two codes and the tactic required:”This evening we played the Aussies at league rugger and were beaten 10 – 0. We didn’t cotton to the forward game and were badly handicapped, still the game was played in the best of spirits.”

The British medical staff at Changi soon started to get the hang of it. On Thursday 16 November 1942, Marshall wrote:’At 6.40 I played league against the Australians from Java. We entered a team in the Australian competition. We had a very enjoyable game and won 5 - 3. We understood league better this time.

To hlp the British adapt to the new game, the Australian sent Corporal Harry Fowler over to the British barracks to give a few ‘lectures’ on rugby league in November & December 1942. The lectures were needed. Marshall sescribed how his team mates had not cottoned onto the game at a match on Saturday, 28 November 1942. Marshall recorded that ’at 6.15 we played our first match in the Australian rugby league competition and were beaten by a fitter team 10 – 5. Our forwards will have to learn to be backs as well.’

He was still optimistic about his team’s chances after a defeat on 12 December 1942, in their third game in the Australian competition. Corporal Fowler came over and gave the British team called a ‘pep talk’ the night before the big game, but it didn’t seem to help. Marshall wrote:”After tea we had our weekly rugger league match, again played in a downpour. We lost 3 – 0 this time, another two times we should start to win.’

Marshall’s optimism was eventually proved right but the British medical team needed the help from some Australian doctors, who were more familiar with RL. Although RL is played in Britain Marshall & his fellow British doctors appeared completely unfamiliar with the game until they saw it at Changi. This illustrated the social gulf between the working class of northern England and the public school backgrounds of Marshall and his fellow British doctors, for whom there was just RU.

 

[Te Kaha]

Please, you're not that stupid are you, I've just stated it was the ministry of defence, did you need names and addresses? Was David Hincliffe's book 'Rugby's Class War' just supposition as well? Easy argument to come back with isn't it, any comment can be claimed as merely assumptions.

Why do you keep up with this repititous tune about supposition, feel like I'm back at Uni, do we need to back every statement with sources, maybe even a bibliography after each post?

Because generally when you make an assertion you need to back it up.. LJC has used a lot of emotive posts about how a sports code with "friends in high places" has illegally put down another. With he exception of the book in the first post he has given no evidence of who these "friends" were, and neither have you.

 

[Knownothing]

Even in Australia union was the official 'rugby' code of the military. The following is an extract from the book "The Sportsmen of Changi" by David Blackburn about the rugby codes at Changi Camp during the war.

The operative word being "was".



Gee, I just looked at my watch, it's the 21st century already. Wake up, Australia!


Yes, Russ, the officer class, back in the dim, distant, amateur, past, favoured rugby union. What a surprise!


Meanwhile, the soldiers played Aussie Rules, or most of them did. Not much rah rah discrimination there.

 

[Perth Red]

Because generally when you make an assertion you need to back it up.. LJC has used a lot of emotive posts about how a sports code with "friends in high places" has illegally put down another. With he exception of the book in the first post he has given no evidence of who these "friends" were, and neither have you.

It is clear that some of the actions we are talking about could not have occurred without someone involved in senior positions, or high places. To suggest you need to know who these individuals names are to have evidence is ridiculous. How do you think the Moroccan police and army got involved in stopping a RL tour if not by the orders of some senior people?

 

[Te Kaha]

It is clear that some of the actions we are talking about could not have occurred without someone involved in senior positions, or high places. To suggest you need to know who these individuals names are to have evidence is ridiculous. How do you think the Moroccan police and army got involved in stopping a RL tour if not by the orders of some senior people?

And whats the evidence that the IRB, being the ruling body in rugby, had ordered that?

 

[Perth Red]

If the IRB or the MRU, irrelevant, we are talking about one code (at any level of administration) having influencing power over politicians/media/govt bodies and using that influence to discriminate against RL for the benefit of RU. As said you can't get the army and police to interfere with a tour unless someone high up is pulling some strings.

The Moroccan rugby league – which Remond Safi, the Rugby League European Federation’s MENA Regional Director, has been heavily involved in forming over the past 18 months – were informed at 5.30pm the day before the scheduled match that permission to use the ground had been rescinded.

Directeur des Sports Saïd Boukhari issued the order to the Basha of Berrechid province, Ahmed Akerdousse and local sports ministry representative Ahmed Bamou.

The following day a Moroccan rugby league delegation consisting of association president Mostafa Jedoual, the presidents of the Arrabiata and Guelmin clubs, MRL secretary Driss Aamoud as well as Safi visited the sports ministry where, despite initial obstructions, they were granted a hearing from Boukhari, Samer Haama, the Manager of Higher Level Sports, Mohamed Moutach, National Teams Administration Manager, Mr El Raji, Manager of National Teams, and Mr El Hauji, the President of General Sports.

Safi duly explained the need for an independent rugby league federation before matters intriguingly took a further twist when a phone call from Simpson to Boukhari seemingly prompted an immediate softening in attitudes and sudden permission to allow the game to go ahead – only using the local club name rather than the kingdom’s.

http://www.rugbyleagueinternational...es-attempts-to-block-rugby-league-in-morocco/

 

[Te Kaha]

If the IRB or the MRU, irrelevant, we are talking about one code (at any level of administration) having influencing power over politicians/media/govt bodies and using that influence to discriminate against RL for the benefit of RU. As said you can't get the army and police to interfere with a tour unless someone high up is pulling some strings.

http://www.rugbyleagueinternational...es-attempts-to-block-rugby-league-in-morocco/

Ahhh bless.. editing a story to back up a point of view...

Of course the real reason is

"The Moroccan clubs have been invited back to Rabat to discuss rugby league?s official status, with the government apparently unaware that separate rugby federations are commonplace throughout the world. The RLEF and European Parliament will support the bid to obtain an independent federation."

The fact the government didn?t understand that Rugby and League were separate sports and not a breakaway "rebel" comp had nothing at all to do with it?

 

[Bronco Rob]

Because generally when you make an assertion you need to back it up.. LJC has used a lot of emotive posts about how a sports code with "friends in high places" has illegally put down another. With he exception of the book in the first post he has given no evidence of who these "friends" were, and neither have you.

Ok I see it now, in your opinion the banning of the code of Ruby League in the British Defence Forces had not a thing to do with the RFU and it's cronies, all just supposition unless we can come up with evidence to dispute that. Please, you really are a denialling Union sycophant.

For nearly 100 years the RFU banned Rugby League players from playing Rugby Union, actually they didn't even have to play a game, even if they had trained with a RL side they were banned. Their reasoning, they didn't want professional sportsmen participating in their very inaccurately termed 'amateur sport' even though professional cricketers and other professional sportsmen were acceptable. Source: Do I really need one for this widely-known fact?

 

[Bronco Rob]

Ahhh bless.. editing a story to back up a point of view...

Of course the real reason is

"The Moroccan clubs have been invited back to Rabat to discuss rugby league’s official status, with the government apparently unaware that separate rugby federations are commonplace throughout the world. The RLEF and European Parliament will support the bid to obtain an independent federation."

The fact the government didn’t understand that Rugby and League were separate sports and not a breakaway "rebel" comp had nothing at all to do with it?

And what if they were a break-away group, why would the government if they had no persuasion to a particular sport suddenely bring in the police to stop a game from being played?

 

[Perth Red]

RU using a Govt ignorance, if that is what happened and the Govt were not in it, is no excuse and doesn't change the facts that RU clearly influenced the decision to not allow the games to go ahead. The fact that it took RL to pull some of its own influence to make them back down should tell you all you need to know.

 

[Te Kaha]

Ok I see it now, in your opinion the banning of the code of Ruby League in the British Defence Forces had not a thing to do with the RFU and it's cronies, all just supposition unless we can come up with evidence to dispute that. Please, you really are a denialling Union sycophant.

The British armed services have been for centuries classed based. The officers tended to be the private school bought up "toffs" who played Rugby. It would be they who wanted Rugby played in the Armed services, but go a had, keep making claims without evidence...And it always shows when some one cant back up their statements with facts when they resort to insults and make up words like "denialling".

For nearly 100 years the RFU banned Rugby League players from playing Rugby Union, actually they didn't even have to play a game, even if they had trained with a RL side they were banned. Their reasoning, they didn't want professional sportsmen participating in their very inaccurately termed 'amateur sport' even though professional cricketers and other professional sportsmen were acceptable. Source: Do I really need one for this widely-known fact?

You have made a claim back it up... it must also be pointed out that The Olympics banned any sportsman who received money from any sport, so its hardly without precedent.

And what if they were a break-away group, why would the government if they had no persuasion to a particular sport suddenely bring in the police to stop a game from being played?

If the govt let a group use the ground believing they were affiliated with an international union, found out they had nothing to do with that union, believed in error through ignorance of another sport that a fraud had been committed they may have taken that action. Since there is no evidence either way, either or neither or any other reason is possible.

RU using a Govt ignorance, if that is what happened and the Govt were not in it, is no excuse and doesn't change the facts that RU clearly influenced the decision to not allow the games to go ahead. The fact that it took RL to pull some of its own influence to make them back down should tell you all you need to know.

And where is the evidence of this? surely the article with have stated such.

 

[Bronco Rob]

The British armed services have been for centuries classed based. The officers tended to be the private school bought up "toffs" who played Rugby. It would be they who wanted Rugby played in the Armed services, but go a had, keep making claims without evidence...And it always shows when some one cant back up their statements with facts when they resort to insults and make up words like "denialling".

And those "Toffs" might have wanted Rugby played in the Defence Forces but they were also instrumental in banning Rugby League from being played right up until 1995. This is well documented in the book 'Rugby's Class War' by David Hinchcliffe. As I've stated previously David was on the Parliamentary Committee that were formed to see that Rugby League was given a fair go.

Sorry that I don't carry around a thesaurus or have the time to look every word up in spellcheck but surely you could comprehend what meaning it had and sorry if being a Union sycophant is an insult to you and I can see that being called one truely is indeed a massive insult.

You have made a claim back it up... it must also be pointed out that The Olympics banned any sportsman who received money from any sport, so its hardly without precedent.

And this is why the RFU were massive hypocrites, it was widely known that a lot of Rugby's players were paid under the table and they had no dramas allowing other sporting professionals to play Rugby, it was just a feeble and deceitful excuse to discriminate against Rugby League. This is well documented once again in the book Rugby's Class War.Sorry I didn't back it up because I assumed it was a fact that someone with your acumen of the game would have known. If you aren't a Union sycophant why do you not just accept that Rugby Union in the UK showed enormous prejudice against Rugby League.

If the govt let a group use the ground believing they were affiliated with an international union, found out they had nothing to do with that union, believed in error through ignorance of another sport that a fraud had been committed they may have taken that action. Since there is no evidence either way, either or neither or any other reason is possible.

I highly doubt the Moroccan RL would have comitted an act of fraud just to use the field and no I don't have evidence just common sense leads me to believe this.

 

[LJC]

Well responded Bronco Rob.

Their are some amazing comments in this thread in denial of the persecution RL has had to deal with over the years and to this day.

The repression for the game of RL is truly evident yet we have people within RL websites actively diverting and deflecting this very real issue against our great sport!

I have mates viewing this thread and they are amazed at some of the "tactics " and antics of the contributors who are in denial of the repression that has been suffered by the sport of RL. It's a real eye opener at how difficult it is to get the truth(widespread repression of RL courtesy of RU bias in the upper echelons of society) out there even amongst so called "fans of the game of RL"!

Another example is at the basic level of players being told not to play RL in the offseason in Ireland. This happened in 2010 when two Aussies that were playing amateur RU in Ireland and requested to play amateur RL during the offseason. They were told by the RU administrator "You can play any other sport except for RL!"

I'm sure this has happened elsewhere and on numerous occasions but the 'denial people' of this thread will gladly view this as an isolated incident. Amazing!

 

[Te Kaha]

And those "Toffs" might have wanted Rugby played in the Defence Forces but they were also instrumental in banning Rugby League from being played right up until 1995. This is well documented in the book 'Rugby's Class War' by David Hinchcliffe. As I've stated previously David was on the Parliamentary Committee that were formed to see that Rugby League was given a fair go.

And yet that is STILL no evidence of the IRB stepping in to make this happen, more that the "upper class" considered Rugby as the game of their class. Doesnt make it right, but doesnt it make it the IRBs fault.

Sorry that I don't carry around a thesaurus or have the time to look every word up in spellcheck but surely you could comprehend what meaning it had and sorry if being a Union sycophant is an insult to you and I can see that being called one truely is indeed a massive insult.

I couldnt care less if you insult me, just shows the type of person you are that you have to resot to them interad of supplying facts and evidence.

And this is why the RFU were massive hypocrites, it was widely known that a lot of Rugby's players were paid under the table and they had no dramas allowing other sporting professionals to play Rugby, it was just a feeble and deceitful excuse to discriminate against Rugby League. This is well documented once again in the book Rugby's Class War.Sorry I didn't back it up because I assumed it was a fact that someone with your acumen of the game would have known. If you aren't a Union sycophant why do you not just accept that Rugby Union in the UK showed enormous prejudice against Rugby League.

Of course the RFU are hypocrites and of course the they showed predjudice, it still doesnt amount to illegal activity to suppress RL like LJC is claiming.

I highly doubt the Moroccan RL would have comitted an act of fraud just to use the field and no I don't have evidence just common sense leads me to believe this.

Where did i say they did, are you having comprehension issues? I said it was equaly possible that since the Govt had no idea RL existed and they were told that the organisation that wanted the feilds was in no way affiliated with the MRU that they thought somethign diodgy was going on. Considering they later found out that RL was a legitimate sport and allowed them access to the feilds it is just as likely... but either way without evidence to support wither premise they are both suppersition.

Well responded Bronco Rob.

Their are some amazing comments in this thread in denial of the persecution RL has had to deal with over the years and to this day.

You should probably re-read this thread .. nobody in any post is denying any such thing.

The repression for the game of RL is truly evident yet we have people within RL websites actively diverting and deflecting this very real issue against our great sport!

Blatent lie right there.

I have mates

And another lie.

I have mates viewing this thread and they are amazed at some of the "tactics " and antics of the contributors who are in denial of the repression that has been suffered by the sport of RL. It's a real eye opener at how difficult it is to get the truth(widespread repression of RL courtesy of RU bias in the upper echelons of society) out there even amongst so called "fans of the game of RL"!

Stop with the lying, at least you have dropped the stupid "friends in high places line.

Another example is at the basic level of players being told not to play RL in the offseason in Ireland. This happened in 2010 when two Aussies that were playing amateur RU in Ireland and requested to play amateur RL during the offseason. They were told by the RU administrator "You can play any other sport except for RL!"

I'm sure this has happened elsewhere and on numerous occasions but the 'denial people' of this thread will gladly view this as an isolated incident. Amazing!

So amateur Rugby players, that are not bound by any contract are told by a so a called Rugby offical, with no legal basis, that they cant play League, and thats considered by you to be "oppression"? Despite the fact there is nothing the "offical" could do to stop said players from playing League... righhhhhhhhhht.

 

[LJC]

Amazing response Te Kaha!

You are a troll and a denier!
Perhaps you have doubts over whether the holocaust happened!?

You would be the type of person whom would gladly continue to see RL struggle as it clearly has. You have backtracked , denied things you have fervently objected to and then used them in your trashing of very valid information.

This repression is very real and things like RU warning off the French RL in taking legal action only magnify the amount of power these people in high places have!

Their is logic behind what we are stating and if you cannot work that out you have real issues in intelligence!

As you comfortably watch RU deceitfully maintain a 'dominant' presence worldwide you will continue in your ignorance and think nothing has been happening behind the scenes to propagate a much slower and less attractive form of rugby(RU).

You state you are a RL fan, I think not! You are a troll and one of those people whom are helping to perpetuate the lie that RU is living at the expense of a much faster and attractive code in RL.

Perhaps you may wake up one day?

 

[Te Kaha]

Amazing response Te Kaha!

You are a troll and a denier!
Perhaps you have doubts over whether the holocaust happened!?

You would be the type of person whom would gladly continue to see RL struggle as it clearly has. You have backtracked , denied things you have fervently objected to and then used them in your trashing of very valid information.

This repression is very real and things like RU warning off the French RL in taking legal action only magnify the amount of power these people in high places have!

Their is logic behind what we are stating and if you cannot work that out you have real issues in intelligence!

As you comfortably watch RU deceitfully maintain a 'dominant' presence worldwide you will continue in your ignorance and think nothing has been happening behind the scenes to propagate a much slower and less attractive form of rugby(RU).

You state you are a RL fan, I think not! You are a troll and one of those people whom are helping to perpetuate the lie that RU is living at the expense of a much faster and attractive code in RL.

Perhaps you may wake up one day?

So once again you have nothing.... you could have saved yourself a lot of typing if you just stated that...

You sound like a theist.. your argument is dependent on faith based belief without any evidence.. In fact when evidence is presented to you, ,ike Madunit has done in dozens of posts, you ignore it or belittle it or outright dismiss it.. just like a dogmatic theist...

Instead of making things up and spousing opinion you should bring in documented evidence of the IRB or any RU using illegal methods to supress RL and then take it to the relevant authorities.. You cant, because you dont have any such evidence.

 

[Perth Red]

I've never tasted the moon but I am pretty confident it is not made of cheese! If you can't see the evidence in the outcomes of what events and outcomes have happened to RL over the centruy then fair enough, myopic love of Union is not a crime, just a mental illness!

 

[Te Kaha]

I've never tasted the moon but I am pretty confident it is not made of cheese! If you can't see the evidence in the outcomes of what events and outcomes have happened to RL over the centruy then fair enough, myopic love of Union is not a crime, just a mental illness!

Yikes!! I hope to the giant spagetti monster that you arent a doctor!!!... An outcome alone is not evidence of the cause.. thats just stupid reasoning, and no amount of throwing insults around is going to make it so...

Like i said before...

Instead of making things up and espousing opinion you should bring in documented evidence of the IRB or any RU using illegal methods to supress RL and then take it to the relevant authorities.. You cant, because you dont have any such evidence

 

[LJC]

It's not my style to be derogative but Teh Haka is disturbingly a denier of very real repression against the game of RL.

What have we to gain by informing and making an awareness of this repression?

It's not something I'd like to do!

It's there and we have given examples throughout this thread that Teh Haka wants to qualify and quantify. Needless to state that the many examples brought to this site are quantifiable.

I'm not in the habit of making up scenarios. Your pedantic and evasive response reeks of a person whom has little regard for RL! And very defensive for RU!

These are very real examples and documented as seen with the French, English, Moroccan, Russian, South African etc examples. Teh Haka refuses to acknowledge these examples! For what purpose! Has he shares in RU? Is he really a RU old boy running amuck in a RL website? All very real assumptions given his disdain and continued doubts of the evidence that has been contributed throughout this thread.

I end with:RL is a supremely better football code than RU. It is much faster and a more attractive version of rugby!

Do you agree with this comment Teh Haka!?