The Forbidden Game-insightful book on what has & can happen

[LJC]

You are an outright liar.

Thanks for the wrap.

The NZ information was sourced from ABC sports radio.

Perhaps Ive heard wrong, but your reaction is over the top.

If I'm wrong tell me what is the situation there seeing as you seem to have greater knowledge?!

 

[madunit]

Just getting a point across.
I suppose I am fairly passionate about this after just reading this book.
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a sport like rugby union has held sway internationally purely because of underhanded tactics with friends in powerful positions.

Its a fact but is not known generally which is the real issue. The powers that be are very good at deflecting, hiding what is really happening by their devious and unsportsmanlike conduct.

It(the repression of RL) needs to be recognized and in due course acted upon by Australian rugby league.

A cleansing and a "fessing up" by the code of rugby union will do wonders for their moral make up.

It will also give RL its rightful place as the dominant rugby code of the world as time goes on.

To be fair, the RU in France between 1920's and 1950's is undoubtedly the worst any worldwide RU organisation has ever been.

As far as underhanded tactics etc goes, the most underhanded could arguably have been Ball, Flegg and Joynton-Smith secretly buying the 1908 Wallabies to play Rugby League.

It pays to look at the issue from both perspectives. Which Is what Fagan does better than anyone.

Union for decades was run by men who received wages from gate takings while the players didn't receieve any money at all.

Disgruntled players who lost money due to injuries sustained playing Union were the driving force behind the birth of Rugby League.

The Union felt betrayed.

The players who created League felt betrayed.

That's essentially why the two codes never liked each other.

To see it purely as one code having been f**ked over by the other is very close minded and misguided.

 

[madunit]

Never would, Locky. But Fagan's output has stepped right back from league, and he seems to be marketing himself at rah rahs now: http://rugbydiehards.wordpress.com/brand/

read the book.

Fagan is following all aspects that lead to the birth of Rugby League.

 

[Te Kaha]

Thanks for the wrap.

The NZ information was sourced from ABC sports radio.

Perhaps Ive heard wrong, but your reaction is over the top.

If I'm wrong tell me what is the situation there seeing as you seem to have greater knowledge?!

You should do some investigation before making claims.

There is NO ban on Playing RL in schools. How did Simon Mannering play League at Nelson College if there was? Same goes for the countless juniors from the rest of the country now playing in Aussie.

Some Schools dont allow it, as is their right, But if you wanted to play RL you wouldn't go to those schools. Its no different to the RL schools that dont allow Rugby.

 

[LJC]

To be fair, the RU in France between 1920's and 1950's is undoubtedly the worst any worldwide RU organisation has ever been.

As far as underhanded tactics etc goes, the most underhanded could arguably have been Ball, Flegg and Joynton-Smith secretly buying the 1908 Wallabies to play Rugby League.

It pays to look at the issue from both perspectives. Which Is what Fagan does better than anyone.

Union for decades was run by men who received wages from gate takings while the players didn't receieve any money at all.

Disgruntled players who lost money due to injuries sustained playing Union were the driving force behind the birth of Rugby League.

The Union felt betrayed.

The players who created League felt betrayed.

That's essentially why the two codes never liked each other.

To see it purely as one code having been f**ked over by the other is very close minded and misguided.

Wow ! So now we have an apologist for RU!

Wondered when they would appear?

You cannot surely believe that the many international examples of repression of RL has not occurred!? Even if you look at it logically what has happened to RL can occur! If the upper echelons of society have a bias against something then that bias will reflect in decisions made in real world situations. This has happened repeatedly to RL on a world wide basis.

You are denying reality. These things have happened to RL and the consequences for the game exist to this day.

Lets make it quite clear rugby league had to poach players as RU was barring and banning them. RL should be given just as much right to exist as RU and this is not happening. Just look at the private school system and its unwavering support for the code of RU.

These people from such schools are the decision makers of tomorrow and a bias toward RU clearly occurs as it is forced down their throat with no choice to play RL in most of these schools.

I am of public school background and have played both codes and I have noted this private school situation when talking to people during my university days.

 

[madunit]

Wow ! So now we have an apologist for RU!

Wondered when they would appear?

I'm not an apologist for anything. How's about having a mature discussion without carrying on like a f**kwit.

You cannot surely believe that the many international examples of repression of RL has not occurred!? Even if you look at it logically what has happened to RL can occur! If the upper echelons of society have a bias against something then that bias will reflect in decisions made in real world situations. This has happened repeatedly to RL on a world wide basis.

You are denying reality. These things have happened to RL and the consequences for the game exist to this day.

Where did I denying anything you f**king moron? You have this mad f**king belief that Rugby League is just like the Jews in Nazi Germany, and Rugby Union are the Nazi's.

Lets make it quite clear rugby league had to poach players as RU was barring and banning them. RL should be given just as much right to exist as RU and this is not happening. Just look at the private school system and its unwavering support for the code of RU.

Rugby League did not HAVE to poach players in underhanded manner. Rugby League's birth was essentially a player movement against Rugby Union. Players and entire clubs came across in droves of their own admission from Union to League. Your emotionally obsessive rants about private schools appear to stem from something personal and not anything factual. I'd love to see some sources to support your views.

These people from such schools are the decision makers of tomorrow and a bias toward RU clearly occurs as it is forced down their throat with no choice to play RL in most of these schools.

I am of public school background and have played both codes and I have noted this private school situation when talking to people during my university days.

I'm from public school background too, I played Rugby League all my junior days til I was 22, I played 1 game of Union as a fill in on game day.

Union bores the shit out of me, I can't watch it for any amount of time.

I am greatly offended that you call me an apologist for Union. It shows that you have no understanding about how much of my life is devoted to revealing and recording rugby league's history.

What I do is look at things objectively. It helps to see the full story and not to have your agenda blind you from the truth of the whole story.

 

[LJC]

You should do some investigation before making claims.

There is NO ban on Playing RL in schools. How did Simon Mannering play League at Nelson College if there was? Same goes for the countless juniors from the rest of the country now playing in Aussie.

Some Schools dont allow it, as is their right, But if you wanted to play RL you wouldn't go to those schools. Its no different to the RL schools that dont allow Rugby.

I'd be interested to know the numbers of the schools that allow both codes to play(which I believe is the way to go) and the schools that only allow union as compared to those that allow RL.

I'm sure the numbers would be biased toward RU given that the education system reflects in many ways the existing establishment power of those in high places who would more than likely be private school educated.

I appreciate their may be exceptions but as a rule the preferential treatment of RU dominates many school systems(particularly private schools) and RL is subsequently marginalized.

 

[madunit]

I'd be interested to know the numbers of the schools that allow both codes to play(which I believe is the way to go) and the schools that only allow union as compared to those that allow RL.

I'm sure the numbers would be biased toward RU given that the education system reflects in many ways the existing establishment power of those in high places who would more than likely be private school educated.

I appreciate their may be exceptions but as a rule the preferential treatment of RU dominates many school systems(particularly private schools) and RL is subsequently marginalized.

So you don't have any evidence of your claims?

 

[Te Kaha]

I'd be interested to know the numbers of the schools that allow both codes to play(which I believe is the way to go) and the schools that only allow union as compared to those that allow RL.

I'm sure the numbers would be biased toward RU given that the education system reflects in many ways the existing establishment power of those in high places who would more than likely be private school educated.

I appreciate their may be exceptions but as a rule the preferential treatment of RU dominates many school systems(particularly private schools) and RL is subsequently marginalized.

with a few exceptions ALL schools allow RL. They are not permitted to ban anything. IF and it is a BIG IF the demand is there, and there is someone who is able and willing provide their time to coach and supervise then a team can be set up. However if that team has noone to play because thereis no local RL interschool competition then its not going to go anywhere.

The problem is that sports teams are required to contributer to ACC. Schoold budgets dont allow for a lot of this. The NZRU give the school comps funds to cover this and equipment, provided it is ONLY used for Rugby, again as is their right. the NZRL does not have the funds to do this country wide. It is why they are targeting specific areas at a time. Starting with Auckland.

Where is your evidence for your "argument" about RL being "marginilsed" in the NZ school system?

 

[LJC]

I'm not an apologist for anything. How's about having a mature discussion without carrying on like a f**kwit.

Where did I denying anything you f**king moron? You have this mad f**king belief that Rugby League is just like the Jews in Nazi Germany, and Rugby Union are the Nazi's.

Rugby League did not HAVE to poach players in underhanded manner. Rugby League's birth was essentially a player movement against Rugby Union. Players and entire clubs came across in droves of their own admission from Union to League. Your emotionally obsessive rants about private schools appear to stem from something personal and not anything factual. I'd love to see some sources to support your views.

I'm from public school background too, I played Rugby League all my junior days til I was 22, I played 1 game of Union as a fill in on game day.

Union bores the shit out of me, I can't watch it for any amount of time.

I am greatly offended that you call me an apologist for Union. It shows that you have no understanding about how much of my life is devoted to revealing and recording rugby league's history.

What I do is look at things objectively. It helps to see the full story and not to have your agenda blind you from the truth of the whole story.

I wonder who is the real ranter in this discussion!?
Your argument seems to slant towards denying what has happened to this great game. I'm not going to use profanities but your reaction is strange for a so called RL fan.

What I have done is made aware of what has and can happen to a sport and this has happened to the game of RL. Many of the replies have backed what I have stated and added further information.

If we cant explore and discuss a real issue then why have a discussion thread?

This issue(repression of a sport by another rival code) is probably the most important concern for RL and it really does need to be addressed.

If we don't discuss and realize its impact then this great game will never grow to where it deserves!

 

[madunit]

I wonder who is the real ranter in this discussion!?

You are. Simple.

Your argument seems to slant towards denying what has happened to this great game. I'm not going to use profanities but your reaction is strange for a so called RL fan.

I did not make an argument. I stated facts. The fact you see facts as an argument shows that you have not got the objectivity to fully appreciate and understand the history of the game.

What I have done is made aware of what has and can happen to a sport and this has happened to the game of RL. Many of the replies have backed what I have stated and added further information.

as did mine you f**king numpty.

If we cant explore and discuss a real issue then why have a discussion thread?

I was discussing it. You decided to call me an apologist when all I did was state facts about how league was born and how league was never always the victim, again, a clear fact.

This issue(repression of a sport by another rival code) is probably the most important concern for RL and it really does need to be addressed.

And I never said anything against that.

If we don't discuss and realize its impact then this great game will never grow to where it deserves!

again, I never suggested anything against that.

 

[LJC]

with a few exceptions ALL schools allow RL. They are not permitted to ban anything. IF and it is a BIG IF the demand is there, and there is someone who is able and willing provide their time to coach and supervise then a team can be set up. However if that team has noone to play because thereis no local RL interschool competition then its not going to go anywhere.

The problem is that sports teams are required to contributer to ACC. Schoold budgets dont allow for a lot of this. The NZRU give the school comps funds to cover this and equipment, provided it is ONLY used for Rugby, again as is their right. the NZRL does not have the funds to do this country wide. It is why they are targeting specific areas at a time. Starting with Auckland.

Where is your evidence for your "argument" about RL being "marginilsed" in the NZ school system?

Thanks for the information.

So it appears that RL does not get played in many NZ schools due to funding. That is why they are doing an area based strategy? Makes sense. Well power to NZRL if they get the game to those areas that don't have the game in schools.

I was commenting about the school system in general, Australia included. I am a teacher and have noted the schools that do not play RL and these are mostly private schools in very wealthy areas eg: Sydney's North Shore etc Most RL playing schools give the option to play RU as well. This does not happen in the RU playing schools. If it does, it would be an exception to the rule.

 

[Te Kaha]

Thanks for the information.

So it appears that RL does not get played in many NZ schools due to funding. That is why they are doing an area based strategy? Makes sense. Well power to NZRL if they get the game to those areas that don't have the game in schools.

I was commenting about the school system in general, Australia included. I am a teacher and have noted the schools that do not play RL and these are mostly private schools in very wealthy areas eg: Sydney's North Shore etc Most RL playing schools give the option to play RU as well. This does not happen in the RU playing schools. If it does, it would be an exception to the rule.

30 seconds of google searching would have got you the same information.. instead you go on a rant stating untruths... like i said.. you lied. even if its only because you were ignorant.

DO reasearch before making claims... its not hard.

 

[madunit]

Thanks for the information.

So it appears that RL does not get played in many NZ schools due to funding. That is why they are doing an area based strategy? Makes sense. Well power to NZRL if they get the game to those areas that don't have the game in schools.

I was commenting about the school system in general, Australia included. I am a teacher and have noted the schools that do not play RL and these are mostly private schools in very wealthy areas eg: Sydney's North Shore etc Most RL playing schools give the option to play RU as well. This does not happen in the RU playing schools. If it does, it would be an exception to the rule.

It's a rather pointless argument nonetheless.

How many kids are playing League compared to Union?

I'd be confident in saying that there are many many more kids playing League.

 

[LJC]

You are. Simple.
I did not make an argument. I stated facts. The fact you see facts as an argument shows that you have not got the objectivity to fully appreciate and understand the history of the game.

as did mine you f**king numpty.

I was discussing it. You decided to call me an apologist when all I did was state facts about how league was born and how league was never always the victim, again, a clear fact.

And I never said anything against that.

again, I never suggested anything against that.

Sorry for getting you upset.

So you do acknowledge that RU has repressed RL over many years and it still occurs?

 

[soc123_au]

LJC, Madunit would probably be in the top 5 people on this forum for historical RL knowledge. Don't take your knife to a gun fight.

 

[madunit]

Sorry for getting you upset.

I don't want your apology. I want you to admit that you acted like a moron.

So you do acknowledge that RU has repressed RL over many years and it still occurs?

No.

Because I have never researched Rugby Union in schools nor at Government levels in other countries anywhere near enough or thoroughly enough to have enough knowledge to base a solid opinion upon on this rather niche theory of yours.

And neither do you.

Like Fagan, I research the history of Rugby League's origin's and how it came to be. Catholic schools used to be pro Union for a long time. Work done by Henry Hoyle (the first NSWRL President and founding father) and Edward Larkin (NSWRL first full time secretary) were both Labor politicians. They managed to get League into Catholic schools, some of them as early as 1910 allowed both codes to be played in their schools.

Both sides have had people in politics who have helped push their respective codes.

My point is that it's never ALWAYS been one-sided AGAINST League, like you seem hell bent on implying.

It is evident that you have no knowledge about the game's birth and early development and are completely opposed to learning about any aspect of the game that committed perceived wrongs itself against Union.

 

[LJC]

I don't want your apology. I want you to admit that you acted like a moron.


No.

Because I have never researched Rugby Union in schools nor at Government levels in other countries anywhere near enough or thoroughly enough to have enough knowledge to base a solid opinion upon on this rather niche theory of yours.

And neither do you.

Like Fagan, I research the history of Rugby League's origin's and how it came to be. Catholic schools used to be pro Union for a long time. Work done by Henry Hoyle (the first NSWRL President and founding father) and Edward Larkin (NSWRL first full time secretary) were both Labor politicians. They managed to get League into Catholic schools, some of them as early as 1910 allowed both codes to be played in their schools.

Both sides have had people in politics who have helped push their respective codes.

My point is that it's never ALWAYS been one-sided AGAINST League, like you seem hell bent on implying.

It is evident that you have no knowledge about the game's birth and early development and are completely opposed to learning about any aspect of the game that committed perceived wrongs itself against Union.

I would suggest internationally that RL is well behind the establishment support given to RU!
That is my point and a book such as "The Forbidden Game" shows this fact.

 

[Perth Red]

I think you would have to be pretty naive to think RU hasn't, and still isn't, repressing RL in some parts of the world and in some systems. Just because a school can't ban a sport doesn't mean they can't go out of there way to ensure it is never played. I remember asking my gym master if we could play RL instead of union and hockey, he basically said over my dead body.

 

[madunit]

I would suggest internationally that RL is well behind the establishment support given to RU!

A Suggestion is not enough for you to be posting your rants as though they are facts, while attacking those who state clear facts, is it now?

Until you have some actual facts, all you have is your uneducated opinion which is based on no research at all.

That is my point and a book such as "The Forbidden Game" shows this fact.

that book is entirely about the game's birth in France.

As with the birth of Rugby League in England, Australia and New Zealand, in France, Union was the only code of Rugby and had been long established.

France was different in a major way because the Union players hated that they couldn't play in real international games because of 'shamateurism' which had corrupted the game in France since the 1920's.

Money, or compensation was not the catalyst for Rugby League in France, as it was in England, Australia and New Zealand, because Union players in France were being paid, but the payments were secret so that the players could retain their "amateur" status.

The Forbidden Game is about the contradiction that was the decision of the Vichy Government to delete Rugby League, and how those wrongs were never fully righted, in fact they were covered up by pro Union government officials.