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The Swamp

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Jono078

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Even if we didnt lose players at the top of their game, we didnt replace them with some other decent players.

I mean we lost Kennedy for Reynoldson who is apparently on 240k a year, that's just ridiculous, I would of rathered Kennedy play 12 games a year for that much.

We werent able to get anyone half decent, who ever Hagan bought mainly played PL and was a waste of money.

Atleast with Smith you might be able to get something decent in return for losing something good.
 

Frederick

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The Colonel said:
Outside of retirement who did you really lose that was at the top of their game and went on to something bigger at another club? Timana Tahu and Ben Kennedy
Yeah, but who did we sign to replace them? Kirk Reynoldson, and a bunch of juniors who aren't exactly top of the crop (Reegan Tanner, Trent Salkeld (who isn't that bad, but unfortunately was recently diagnosed with the same kidney disease that Jonah Lomu had))
 

The Colonel

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Jono078 said:
Even if we didnt lose players at the top of their game, we didnt replace them with some other decent players.

I mean we lost Kennedy for Reynoldson who is apparently on 240k a year, that's just ridiculous, I would of rathered Kennedy play 12 games a year for that much.

We werent able to get anyone half decent, who ever Hagan bought mainly played PL and was a waste of money.

Atleast with Smith you might be able to get something decent in return for losing something good.

Do you know that for certain?

Hagan may have chased them but it comes back to the club management and what they are willing to pay doesn't it? Or was Hagan in charge of negotiations? I thought that was at one stage the realm of Paul Harragon and Mark Sargent.
 

Frederick

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The Colonel said:
Do you know that for certain?
Yup, was splashed all over the papers and news up here when we signed him - the club seemed proud of themselves #-o
 

The Colonel

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Captain_Fred said:
Yeah, but who did we sign to replace them? Kirk Reynoldson, and a bunch of juniors who aren't exactly top of the crop (Reegan Tanner, Trent Salkeld (who isn't that bad, but unfortunately was recently diagnosed with the same kidney disease that Jonah Lomu had))

Can you name ten BIG NAME players that the Knights have signed since they came into the comp? At the end of the day outside of Lee Jackson, Michael Hagan and Ben Kennedy what other big names have you had at the club that were big names before then?


I wrote this as an article for the Forun 7's on the Knights a year or more ago. I think it sums up the lack of signings at the Knights very well.


Haven’t we been here before?

Being 0-7 and having just two points from the bye in 2005 is rather difficult to digest for a team like the Newcastle Knights. They have been remarkably successful in producing home grown talent, highlighted by one Andrew Johns, around which their two premiership wins were built. But right at the moment they are struggling. Injuries have all but wrecked their season and even if the majority of players they have out do return, things still don’t look any brighter. They lost many talented and long serving first grade players to retirement and other clubs in 2004. They did manage to secure the services of Reynoldson and Cooper but they hardly balance the ledger when compared with the loss of Tahu, Kennedy, Parsons, Ennis and O’Davis. Having banked on their junior development for so long, have their management failed to look at what happened at two other clubs who gambled on the continued success of their junior base and, for a time, lost?

Parramatta were arguably the team of the eighties, winning 4 premierships in six seasons on the back of some remarkable junior talent in Sterling, Kenny, Ella and Grothe coupled with veterans in Price and Cronin. In 1986 the old heads in Cronin and Price had played enough and retired, leaving the now seasoned Sterling and Kenny to continue on. Over time as the rest of the Parramatta stars slowly succumbed to injury and retirement, the junior talent didn’t progress as some had hoped. By the early nineties Parramatta could do no better than attract players past their used by date or players who at best were fringe first graders. There was no real incentive to join a club that languished towards the bottom of the ladder even with the likes of Kenny and Sterling at the club. It wasn’t until 1997 that the Eels eventually returned to the finals.

Canberra enjoyed a similar success to that of Parramatta and also suffered a similar if not slower progression down the ladder. Daley, Stuart, and Clyde alongside some veterans in Meninga and Belcher were the core of a club that won back to back premierships. As players left either through retirement particularly Stuart and Clyde, the Canberra management banked on the junior talent coming through to fill the gaps. In 1999 they missed the finals for the first time since 1992. Even now they are feeling the affects. While successful in making the finals in 2003, they still struggle to attract top line players. This season they have been moderately successful and time will tell if they can make it back to the finals.

For a club that relies heavily on sponsorship to keep their season afloat they really had no other choice but to pay the big dollars to Johns. Some would argue the large salary was excessive and may have been better spent on other players as well as Johns. The players that they have been able to attract were in positions that were quite deep already. The youngsters that they have are quite talented; their Premier League side running high on the ladder, but rushing them into first grade with the high injury tolls may not help their careers long term. Buderus is off contract at the end of the season and has stalled talks until management confirm their intentions for 2006 and beyond. They have a number of veteran players off contract who it would appear unlikely will command the money they have become accustomed to, but will poor performances affect the Knights ability to be successful in the player market?

Playing with arguably the best player in the world may well be a carrot, however if his injury woes continue and someone like Buderus continues having second thoughts it may have an adverse effect. Add to that the inability of the Knights to attract a major sponsor and the players entering the market and may end up bypassing Newcastle as a potential club despite what money may be on offer.

While not wishing to see a club that has been among the best clubs over the past decade falter, unless the Knights management can remedy a few things off-field and performances on the field pick up, using what has occurred at Canberra and Parramatta as a guide, it could well be a couple of lean long years ahead for the Knights faithful.
 

El Diablo

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Captain_Fred said:
Yup, was splashed all over the papers and news up here when we signed him - the club seemed proud of themselves

so why does Hagan get the blame?

Smith can get credit and blame for hirings and firings at Parra. Fitzgerald on numerous occassions said Smith was pretty well solely in charge of that department.
 

Jono078

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The Colonel said:
Do you know that for certain?

Hagan may have chased them but it comes back to the club management and what they are willing to pay doesn't it? Or was Hagan in charge of negotiations? I thought that was at one stage the realm of Paul Harragon and Mark Sargent.

I've read he is on 240k, But I myself dont know that for certain.

Hagan probably didnt have 100% control over who he could negotiate with, but still he wasnt able to atleast convince the club to go for some decent players.

Brian Smith has been able to get decent players over the years, and the club must have trusted what he thought that player could bring to the team.

Anyway id rather not argue about this.

I just want the footy to start and let results do the talking :( 43 days, to far away.
 

Frederick

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The Colonel said:
Can you name ten BIG NAME players that the Knights have signed since they came into the comp? At the end of the day outside of Lee Jackson, Michael Hagan and Ben Kennedy what other big names have you had at the club that were big names before then?
Hmm I see your point


The Colonel said:
I wrote this as an article for the Forun 7's on the Knights a year or more ago. I think it sums up the lack of signings at the Knights very well.
As I said before, a lot of those problems have been dealt with since our signing with Wests and a bunch of other sponsors. We've implement the USTEP training and rehabilitation program, which involved hiring the guy from QLD academy of sport who did Joeys rehab after his knee reconstruction, as well as additional staff required to make sure injuries are kept to a minimum, and the success of this program has shown on the park, with our player use down from 35 in 2005, to 26 in 2006

Good article, btw. How much did it score? :p
 

yy_cheng

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I think Hages is good for us. Our players understands and is used to the culture and style of smith and with the relaxed atmosphere that Hages will bring, it should complete the package.

i.e. Our players should be technically right now and is used to a standard of training, drills and skills thus our standards should not drop as the players are used to it.

To compliment that is the mental side like reduced stress and increase enjoyment and I think Hages can bring that in.
 

The Colonel

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Captain_Fred said:
As I said before, a lot of those problems have been dealt with since our signing with Wests and a bunch of other sponsors. We've implement the USTEP training and rehabilitation program, which involved hiring the guy from QLD academy of sport who did Joeys rehab after his knee reconstruction, as well as additional staff required to make sure injuries are kept to a minimum, and the success of this program has shown on the park, with our player use down from 35 in 2005, to 26 in 2006

See this is the thing, Mark Sargent and Michael Hagan both went to the board and said that these things had to change. They were the ones that said the Knights need to loosen the purse strings or risk being left behind the rest of the competition. As much sh*t as Hagan has received from many of you, he should be commended for opening the eyes of management and getting those things put in place. As much problems have you have with his recruitment methids he has left a legacy at your club that has allowed the attraction of other players into the club and a coach who should be able to at least make the best use of those facilities across all grades.

Just don't hang on to him for ten years.....

Good article, btw. How much did it score? :p

Can't remember in all honesty.....
 

Burwood

Bench
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The Colonel said:
Can't remember in all honesty.....

That poorly, hey;-)


It hasn't been mentioned yet, but does anybody think that Smith is capable of changing the way he coaches a team? Maybe his intense attitude was a by-product of the club he was at and the pressure placed on him by officials and the public? The change to Newcastle where everything is a lot more relaxed may be a new lease of life for Smith.


Also, people have said that Newcastle is a fishbowl environment where every player/coach is under constant watch, but I don't see that as being critical scrutiny. Even during 2005 when the side was not performing on the field the local media were very supportive of the team and did not start to point fingers or lay blame at certain individuals- anyone associated is pretty much revered as Gods by the media. The negative publicity related to Newcastle's "fish bowl-ness" is basically that there is no where to go where you are not known and can get some privacy.
 

El Diablo

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Burwood said:
That poorly, hey;-)


It hasn't been mentioned yet, but does anybody think that Smith is capable of changing the way he coaches a team?

no

with new 3G technology he may actually use that instead of the standard sms
 

Suitman

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Bigfella said:
Taylor got us to the finals without winning a final. Did he achieve anything more than Smith achieved in previous years?

Anyway, what all of these posts reflect is that each coach has different strengths and weaknesses. Each club is at a point where they will probably benefit from the points of difference that each coach will bring.

Hagan has a good record in that he has won a comp in 5 years of first grade coaching. Smith has an excellent record in that he has consistently coached teams (and clubs) to all round standards of excellence, marred by an absence of a premiership.

Taylor for mine is still an unknown quantity who inherited a fantastic squad in a position where he had nothing to lose, and did fairly well without actually taking our players to any new heights. And in any case, he was enormously influenced by Brian Smith, so if we were keen to punt Smith I don't see why we should have retained JT.

Hagan is our coach now, so I wish him and the players he will coach all the best.

I wasn't suggesting that Taylor is a great coach - far from it. Just that Smith's time had come, the tension was high, and a relaxing of attitudes made a huge difference to the players mindset.

Otherwise, I agree with what you have said.

Suity
 

Eelementary

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eelavation said:
Smithy has not ever up until now, had great halves at his disposal and he still made 3 Grand Finals and hages has really had one halfback in his firstgrade coaching career?? so I'm sorry Eele if we're comparing the 2 coach's abilities we should never pick on 1 particular position to do it..

He had the 2001 Dally M 5/8 Of The Year at his disposal...I'd say he qualifies as a great half...
 

strider

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Eelementary said:
He had the 2001 Dally M 5/8 Of The Year at his disposal...I'd say he qualifies as a great half...
the one who screwed his shoulder pre-season and didn't play most of the post-dally m season?
 

cardinal

Juniors
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Eelementary said:
He had the 2001 Dally M 5/8 Of The Year at his disposal...I'd say he qualifies as a great half...

Taylor and Beuttner had good seasons in 2001 but both went missing in the game that mattered (they had plenty of mates) To say either of them were great players is a big statement. Great players represent their country. I think it's a fair statement to say Smithy never had great halves to work with, but now he has so we will see what he can do.
 

Eelementary

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I see Morrison as a great player. He never represented Australia.

I see Eric Grothe as a great player - he played for Australia, but the status of that match as a genuine International Test is debatable.

Taylor. Dykes, Jason Smith...Brian has had quality players to work with, but my point was that he never really got them to click properly.

Life after Buderus? Cool - Brian's your man. He'll find an unrated young hooker who'll make Farah look like yesterday's news.

Life after BK? Sweet - Smith will find you the next superstar.

But life after Joey? I don't really think Smithy is the man for the job. Sorry.

And my initial point stands - that "comparison" was cheap and anti-Hagan. WTF is it doing on an Eels board? It's Knights-biased to the extreme.
 

Frederick

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Eelementary said:
But life after Joey? I don't really think Smithy is the man for the job. Sorry.
We already have our solution though, in Jarrod Mullen ;-)
 
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