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The two clubs in serious danger of collapse - Tele

Nightward

Juniors
Messages
874
I love how people assume the Sharks folding will loose the game "hundreds of thousands" of fans.

What's their average home crowd, again?

Realistically speaking, Sydney should be occupied by no more than four teams, one each for the cardinal points. Due to short-sightedness in administrators and a lack of vision in supporters, however, this is not going to happen.

If, as the Sydney fans constantly complain, the market there is so flooded and fans so difficult to attract, the logical solution is not to do nothing and hope it gets better, but to do something about the situation.

Ultimately, the choice faced by a number of Sydney clubs is relocation, merging, or folding. Some can stand on their own and survive, as pointed out by bartman. For others, this is not a likely scenario.
 
Messages
3,296
Cronulla :arrow: Sunshine Coast

Have to admit that the AFL administrators really know how to run their game and make our boys look like a bunch of amateurs.
 

Southernsaint

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,228
It'll be very dissaointing to lose a club as successful as Cronulla, not to mention the role-models that play for them or their tolerant, welcoming supporters.

It'll be very tough...but I'll survive.
 

bartman

Immortal
Messages
41,022
Realistically speaking, Sydney should be occupied by no more than four teams, one each for the cardinal points.

I think there's pretty much 6 or 7 cardinal points in a city as big as Sydney (if you take the geographical centre as Parramatta) and with it's particular shape and the way it is growing.... And I know that makes then not cardinal points as such, but you get my drift.

Priorities:


1. Outer Western Sydney - the area covered by Penrith, from the mountains in to Blacktown
- big population, threat of new AFL team at Blacktown

2. Western Sydney
- the area covered by Parramatta, from Auburn out to Blacktown including Hills District
- big population, threat of new AFL team at Blacktown

3. South Western Sydney - the area now covered by Wests from Liverpool outwards to Camden
- big population, not many games played there

4. Northern Sydney - the area covered by Manly and previously North Sydney
- no competition other than club rugby, opportunity for a new team added on Central Coast to shore up league's geographical coverage

5. Southern Sydney
- the area covered by St George-Illawarra and Cronulla
- two NRL teams squashed into what could be the one broad area for mine, StG-Illa have already merged and Cronulla look ripe as future relocation candidates
6. Inner Sydney - this is where it gets tricky... these areas were once the games heartlands and all that really existed of Sydney when league began.

In these areas the population isn't growing or expanding, the AFL and Waratahs have decent levels of support, and it includes all the areas covered by the Bulldogs, Roosters and Rabbitohs, as well as those previously covered by Balmain Tigers and Wests Magpies.

Now, the Roosters and Rabbitohs will never merge, and are our two remaining foundation clubs (and I'm not a fan of getting rid of our last bit of history). The Bulldogs don't play in their traditional area at all any more, and I guess have moved into the old Wests area more as their home groundlocation over the years. You could say the same of Souths and their use of Homebush, and then you look at Wests with their current use of a ground in Souths/Easts territory while Campbelltown is renovated. :crazy:

The Roosters have rebranded from Easts to Sydney, and play... in Sydney. So they get a tick. The Rabbitohs have shifted to get a grip of an area near Homebush, have maintained connections with their local area (refit of Redfern Oval), and thrive off that history while also moving forward with Rusty's marketing of the club. So they get a tick to stay.

Wests can hopefully move back out of the city and Homebush and back out to a home base at a decent stadium at Campbelltown, with the odd boutique match at Leichhardt doing no harm.

The Bulldogs dropped their geography from their branding some time ago, have not maintained any links to Belmore that I'm aware of, and now also play out of Homebush. They have a strong "brand" that could survive a detachment from whatever their local area now is, as well as ownership of other minor club facilities in many different areas. I think they have been gearing up for a relocation, given the crowded nature of the clubs competing in this Inner Sydney space - they were a key part of Super League and it's theory about reducing teams after all.
This bit has been a bit lengthy, but what I'm seeing for this area in future is this:

6. a) Sydney - the area currently covered by the Roosters (plus maybe Souths Juniors?), with Roosters looking to build a future alliance with an area outside Sydney in terms of junior nursery and occasional game.
- a foundation club playing out of SFS, with one regaular out of Sydney game scheduled per year.

6. b) Inner Western Sydney - the area previously covered by Wests Magpies, Balmain Tigers, Bulldogs, to be covered by Rabbitohs franchise
- a foundation team playing out of Homebush, with the odd game at SFS (and Redfern for pre-season) to maintain the South Sydney history ties.


Relocations:

Bulldogs - to choose wherever they like, except Central Coast. Potential opportunities in Adelaide, Perth, 2nd Brisbane franchise, 2nd NZ franchise. All of these are outside of NSW and the pokies tax, and they would maintain a presence in VB Cup or whatever it is called. Rabbitohs franchise tries to win over people from traditional area around Bankstown in some way.

Sharks - to be guided by the NRL in relocating to a place that suits the game. Potential opportunities in Adelaide, Perth, 2nd Brisbane franchise, 2nd NZ franchise. I'll throw in Sunshine Coast because someone said so, even though I'm not sure whether they'd sustain a team more than a 2nd Brisbane side? maintain a presence in the VB cup and St George-Illawarra attempt to win people over from the area (by having a sky blue stripe or something :lol:).


New teams (> 2012):

Central Coast Bears - would mean an expansion of the comp when we are ready to got to 18 teams. Infrastructure is in place, using the Bears name goes some way into retaining the previous good will built up by North Sydney, and gives the brand new club an informal association with the remaints of that old club and its junior area.

18th team
- Whichever area out of the following has its own consortium in place and ready to go for it, and hasn't formed part of NRL plans for relocation - 2nd Brisbane team, 2nd NZ team, Adelaide, Perth, Sunshine Coast. The Wellington Orcas sounded like they had some OK plans when the last bids were received?


End results:

You'll never get Sydney down to four teams. From nine teams currently I've got it down to 7 without too much pain, or guesisng games. If you simultaneously expand the comp by 2 teams (Central Coast and Wellington) after 2012 once there's enough money from new broadcast deals and the game is ready, then the % of Sydney clubs will have dropped from >50% to 38%. And through two relocations you could back Perth to the game and probably a 2nd Brisbane team, with Adelaide and the Sunshine Coast to follow by 2019 with a comp expanded to 20 teams (and the damage done by Super League will finally be made right).
 
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The Dodger

First Grade
Messages
6,065
sadly, rugby league in australia will need to be re organised the way soccer in australia was done (a-league) to become successful again.
 

Nightward

Juniors
Messages
874
Eh, if you want to relocate and have a total lock on the market, the places to look at are Darwin and Hobart. Tasmania's only major sporting team is in cricket, and AFL are half-heartedly giving them matches here and there. Darwin's got nothing. Fears of travel and heat have been well and truly put to rest by the Warriors and Cowboys, and it's not like rugby is unpopular in the top end.

I don't know how the Kiwis would react to an imported team, but relocating a Sydney team to Queensland would be a waste of time unless the NRL is willing to prop them up, possibly for two or three generations. Ex-Sydney-siders who follow the NRL up here already have a team, and in the local area you already have the Broncos or Titans to support. Anything they do in Queensland will have to be a new, local franchise. South-East Queensland and the Sunshine Coast are probably covered well enough already; what you would want to look at is something in the bush heartland, but facilities are a problem there. Still, a Central Queensland team would be better for the future of the game than a Logan/Brisbane 2/Ipswich/Sunshine Coast one.

For the long term, you also want a second NZ team. This removes the problem of State of Origin; the Kiwis can have a North Island/South Island Origin game, and with the time differential between Australia and New Zealand, they can kick it off before the Queensland/New South Wales game, so more TV revenue for the NRL.

The Bunnies seem to be at work in Perth, though definitely not with an eye to moving out there. I think Perth would be similarly parochial to Queensland, and selling a relocated team would be difficult to say the least. They really lost the Reds for no fault of their own, and they're working hard to be promoted when the game does expand again.

For a really pie-in-the-sky suggestion, you could do worse than get a PNG team in. Assuming you could do something about the facilities, security concerns, and travel times (maybe break their season into quarters and have them play home and way for extended blocks), and you're golden. Support would be huge, even for a relocated Sydney club.

maintain a presence in the VB cup and St George-Illawarra attempt to win people over from the area (by having a sky blue stripe or something :lol:).

They could become the St. George-Illawarra-Cronulla Dragon Shark Steelers. Bit of a mouthful, that.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Eh, if you want to relocate and have a total lock on the market, the places to look at are Darwin and Hobart.

I stopped reading here. Wastes of time, both of them. Suggestions of Adelaide are already stretching the boundaries of what is worthwhile pursuing.
 

bartman

Immortal
Messages
41,022
I stopped reading here. Wastes of time, both of them. Suggestions of Adelaide are already stretching the boundaries of what is worthwhile pursuing.
Yeah, have to agree there.

Expansion isn't about fairness, it's about the dollars a new territory would bring to the code. Dollars from weight of numbers of TV subscriptions while News is still involved in teh game, and dollars from new sponsorships possible because of the populations of potential new territories.

There's areason even AFL hasn't jumped across the strait to Tassie. Adelaide is still worth a go in my opinion, though I'm not sure how Sunshine Coast compares or might add to the euqation. That's where it should stop though, at 20 teams with 7 Sydney teams, plus the Central Coast, Newcastle, Canberra, and the Illawarra part of St George-Illawarra (for a total of 10 NSW).
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Yeah, have to agree there.

Expansion isn't about fairness, it's about the dollars a new territory would bring to the code. Dollars from weight of numbers of TV subscriptions while News is still involved in teh game, and dollars from new sponsorships possible because of the populations of potential new territories.

There's areason even AFL hasn't jumped across the strait to Tassie. Adelaide is still worth a go in my opinion, though I'm not sure how Sunshine Coast compares or might add to the euqation. That's where it should stop though, at 20 teams with 7 Sydney teams, plus the Central Coast, Newcastle, Canberra, and the Illawarra part of St George-Illawarra (for a total of 10 NSW).

Personally i'd go for 4 more teams, Perth, CC, Sunshine Coast OR Brisbane 2 (personally I think Brisbane 2 is a silly idea, but some insist on it being worthwhile), and Wellington.
 
Messages
23,956
I love how people assume the Sharks folding will loose the game "hundreds of thousands" of fans.

What's their average home crowd, again?

Realistically speaking, Sydney should be occupied by no more than four teams, one each for the cardinal points. Due to short-sightedness in administrators and a lack of vision in supporters, however, this is not going to happen.

If, as the Sydney fans constantly complain, the market there is so flooded and fans so difficult to attract, the logical solution is not to do nothing and hope it gets better, but to do something about the situation.

Ultimately, the choice faced by a number of Sydney clubs is relocation, merging, or folding. Some can stand on their own and survive, as pointed out by bartman. For others, this is not a likely scenario.

The choice for Sydney clubs is easy - keep operating. People keep death riding them based purely on the fact that virtually all the Leagues Clubs posted a loss in the 07-08 financial year, most of them their first in a long time. Penrith are a very wealthy club, particularly since they franchised their Leagues Club to Bathurst, Port Maquarie, etc. St George + Canterbury have plenty of $$$ in the bank, plus they own significant amounts of property and other assets in their respective regions. Easts haven't relied on Leagues Club grants for a long time now, and Souths + Manly are privately owned with diversified sponsorship and membership options. The only two Sydney clubs who are in trouble are Parramatta, more due to Denis Fitzgerald being inept (investing in the Parramatta Two Blues RU and the Parramatta Power in the old NSL really put a big dent in their books), and Cronulla because they just don't have the supporters even in the Shire (hell, their supporters don't even buy their team's merchandise). Also their Leagues Club is pretty isolated in the region (it's surrounded by a school, a golf course, junior league and soccer fields, and Botany Bay), with very little transport to the area: Woolooware station is a 15 minute walk, and buses go there about every 30-45 minutes.

Merging all the Sydney clubs into 4 Super Clubs would be a very stupid idea. It would isolate many long-time supporters of their clubs, and create disharmony between their fans. Sure people would still follow the game, but their would be no passion. There is already disharmony in the two merged clubs in regards to their seperate fan bases, why do people think that, say, merging Parramatta, Penrith, and Canterbury to make a Western Sydney franchise would be any different? Sydney has already dropped 3 clubs in the last two decades (Newtown Bluebags, mergers between St George + Illawarra and Balmain + Wests makes one less club each), which people seem to casually overlook.

People keep using the A-League as an example, but don't comprehend why the NSL disbanded to be replaced by the A-League. It was not because their were too many clubs in one region, it was because the clubs were based on cultural and ethnic lines (Sydney Olympic - Greek, Sydney United - Croatian, Marconi Stallions - Italian, Melbourne Knights - Croatian, etc), which led to violence on and off the field. That is not the situation in the NRL.

The more people stop listening to sensationalist media reports and quoting them as pure 100% fact, the faster our beautiful game can flourish and dominate the continent!
 

BrisVegas

Juniors
Messages
892
The NSWRL was advised by the Bradley Report in the early 90s that 14 teams was ideal for a national competition, 5 of which would be Sydney clubs. Does anyone know what 5 areas these teams were to represent?


As Bartman posted above, I see Sydney having 7 clubs in the short to medium term, which in conjunction with expanding the competition to 18 teams would give the NRL a presence in all keen immediate expansion markets:


NRL 2020

North QLD
Brisbane
SE QLD II/Sunshine Coast/West Brisbane
Gold Coast
Central Coast (Most likely a relocated Sydney team)
Newcastle
Canberra
Melbourne
Perth
Auckland
Wellington
----------
Sydney x7
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
Realistically speaking, Sydney should be occupied by no more than four teams, one each for the cardinal points. Due to short-sightedness in administrators and a lack of vision in supporters, however, this is not going to happen.

LOL - you ever been to Sydney? Do you know where it is?

Your four sydney teams would include EAST - representing about 50 000 people, and WEST, representing about 3 million people. That'd work - dickhead!!!!!!!!!

sadly, rugby league in australia will need to be re organised the way soccer in australia was done (a-league) to become successful again.

FFS, it's bloody sucessful now!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

KalgoorlieRed

Juniors
Messages
2,014
LOL - you ever been to Sydney? Do you know where it is?

Your four sydney teams would include EAST - representing about 50 000 people, and WEST, representing about 3 million people. That'd work - dickhead!!!!!!!!!



FFS, it's bloody sucessful now!!!!!!!!!!!!
twat
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
27,565
perth is a waste if time and money. They had a club bankrolled by Rupert and it failed, now that is almost as laughable as KR never ending mantra.
 
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