Time for Moylan to 5/8

[maple_69]

Is that such a bad thing? Martin and Cleary are young. If they don't have the responsibility to make something happen constantly because Moylan is doing it from the back, great.

I think Martin has too much potential not to have a look at him for a few months when he's surrounded by a top 4 side. We know Moylan is a world class fullback so if Martin hits the ground running, perfect, now we have an incredible spine. We know Moylan is a world class five eighth, so if Martin doesnt work, well we just need DWZ to perform to potential and we have an incredible spine.

 

[franklin2323]

Is that such a bad thing? Martin and Cleary are young. If they don't have the responsibility to make something happen constantly because Moylan is doing it from the back, great.

I think Martin has too much potential not to have a look at him for a few months when he's surrounded by a top 4 side. We know Moylan is a world class fullback so if Martin hits the ground running, perfect, now we have an incredible spine. We know Moylan is a world class five eighth, so if Martin doesnt work, well we just need DWZ to perform to potential and we have an incredible spine.

That's the way I see it Top 4 should be the aim. If we get there and don't play Moylan at 6 one game we are very well off. If we are up and down for the 1st say 8 weeks. I dare say Moylan will be our 6

 

[umina panther]

I believe Moylan is already the best 5/8 in the game without playing a game there. His kicking has improved out of sight and he is the best passer of the football in the world

 

[Pomoz]

I'd rather just pick the best halves pairing and go from there. Anyone playing 6 while Moylan is at FB is just going to be a passenger not getting the kind of ball halves would usually get or need to be effective.

Maybe, but if you look at the number of touches that halves and fullbacks get in other teams it seems that besides dummy half (always the most touches obviously), the number of receives at fullback is surprisingly high. It seems in some teams the fullback gets more touches than the 5/8th or halfback. Coote often gets more touches than Michael Morgan (excluding kick returns) and this is reflected in their attacking structures where Coote plays like a second receiver for many plays.

Against the Cowboys Darius Boyd had 45 receives (plus two kick returns) and Milford only had 29 and Ben Hunt 41 receives. Against Cronulla, Munster had 24 receives (plus four kick returns) against Green's 30 and Cronk's 38. A relatively even number of receives. Cronulla were the opposite. Barba had less than half the touches of Townsend and Maloney.

To me it just shows that who is the play maker depends entirely on the make up of the team, not on the position. How the game flows on the day seems to also have an impact. For example, against South Sydney Thomas Leuluai had more receives than Shaun Johnson (a supposedly dominate halfback). Against the Gold Coast, Shaun Johnson had 50% more touches than Thomas Leuluai.

Against the Roosters, Cartwright had 42 receives and Moylan 25 (plus four kick returns). Against Canterbury, Moylan had 44 receives (plus six kick returns) and Cartwright only had 26. I thought this was an issue as well, but it turns out when you look at the data, there is simply no hard and fast rule and I don't think it makes any difference where Moylan plays in terms of playmaking. He demands and gets the ball when he wants it. In some games he touches the ball more than any other player, some games he doesn't.

Other teams are also successful with a fullback dominating, or a half or a 5/8th, or an even share. The players just need to communicate and train to encompass all three playmaking positions to avoid confusion on match day.

I think the only issue with Moylan at fullback, as I have said before, is his kick returns. They are weak and the only bad point in his considerable range of skills (he drops a few bombs as well, but not enough to consider it a major weakness). That said, we have two beasts on the wing who more than compensate for his lack of metres on kick returns and the coach has them dropping back to bring the ball back to offset this. Problem solved.

If the coach leave Moylan where he is, we may well find ourselves in a position where we actually have four playmakers in the team with TMM,Cleary, Cartwright and Moylan. That could potentially be attacking nirvana and a nightmare for other teams to defend against. Roll on 2017........

 

[Pomoz]

I believe Moylan is already the best 5/8 in the game without playing a game there. His kicking has improved out of sight and he is the best passer of the football in the world

That over the top pass against Canberra was just absolute class. He even had commentators comparing it to a Wally Lewis pass. High praise indeed. If there is a better passer at the moment, he is keeping it a secret.

 

[betcats]

Is that such a bad thing? Martin and Cleary are young. If they don't have the responsibility to make something happen constantly because Moylan is doing it from the back, great.

I think Martin has too much potential not to have a look at him for a few months when he's surrounded by a top 4 side. We know Moylan is a world class fullback so if Martin hits the ground running, perfect, now we have an incredible spine. We know Moylan is a world class five eighth, so if Martin doesnt work, well we just need DWZ to perform to potential and we have an incredible spine.

They are young now but as they grow and get better and more confident there isn't magically going to be more touches for them. Moylan will still be the best playmaker and one of them will still be a passenger. Moylan is too good to be taking touches off him and given them to a rookie.

 

[betcats]

Maybe, but if you look at the number of touches that halves and fullbacks get in other teams it seems that besides dummy half (always the most touches obviously), the number of receives at fullback is surprisingly high. It seems in some teams the fullback gets more touches than the 5/8th or halfback. Coote often gets more touches than Michael Morgan (excluding kick returns) and this is reflected in their attacking structures where Coote plays like a second receiver for many plays.

Against the Cowboys Darius Boyd had 45 receives (plus two kick returns) and Milford only had 29 and Ben Hunt 41 receives. Against Cronulla, Munster had 24 receives (plus four kick returns) against Green's 30 and Cronk's 38. A relatively even number of receives. Cronulla were the opposite. Barba had less than half the touches of Townsend and Maloney.

To me it just shows that who is the play maker depends entirely on the make up of the team, not on the position. How the game flows on the day seems to also have an impact. For example, against South Sydney Thomas Leuluai had more receives than Shaun Johnson (a supposedly dominate halfback). Against the Gold Coast, Shaun Johnson had 50% more touches than Thomas Leuluai.

Against the Roosters, Cartwright had 42 receives and Moylan 25 (plus four kick returns). Against Canterbury, Moylan had 44 receives (plus six kick returns) and Cartwright only had 26. I thought this was an issue as well, but it turns out when you look at the data, there is simply no hard and fast rule and I don't think it makes any difference where Moylan plays in terms of playmaking. He demands and gets the ball when he wants it. In some games he touches the ball more than any other player, some games he doesn't.

Other teams are also successful with a fullback dominating, or a half or a 5/8th, or an even share. The players just need to communicate and train to encompass all three playmaking positions to avoid confusion on match day.

I think the only issue with Moylan at fullback, as I have said before, is his kick returns. They are weak and the only bad point in his considerable range of skills (he drops a few bombs as well, but not enough to consider it a major weakness). That said, we have two beasts on the wing who more than compensate for his lack of metres on kick returns and the coach has them dropping back to bring the ball back to offset this. Problem solved.

If the coach leave Moylan where he is, we may well find ourselves in a position where we actually have four playmakers in the team with TMM,Cleary, Cartwright and Moylan. That could potentially be attacking nirvana and a nightmare for other teams to defend against. Roll on 2017........

Moylan gets his touches at first and second receiver that's where he is most effective, Darius plays out the back all the time in that same play Bennet has been using for years. Look at some of his work from first or second receiver recently and show me a FB that is playing like that regularly, he has set up some of our tries of the season from there. Again having four playmakers sounds great but when you have someone like Moylan you don't need them, you just need to let Moylan dominate the ball as long as he has a decent halves partner that is enough.

If you have a problem with his kick returns wouldn't you just remove that pressure off him and let him play at 6? People keep whinging about his kick returns and yet our starts to the set is a strength of ours, a major strength you could say. Moylan is a smart player and he uses Mansour and Dallin well, we have scored a couple of long range tries from kick returns that started with Moylan recently. When he cant get the ball to Mansour or dallin he runs to position for the next hit up which is usually a good one, I don't get the issue? Moylan isn't afraid of contact, anyone who plays at the line like he does is tough, watch how often he is picking himself up off the ground after setting up a break or try. He is a very good FB but since he has started playing like a half he has gone to another level.

 

[Pomoz]

Betcats, you will note that I mentioned "the flow of the game". Even players better than Moylan, sometimes don't get the ball as much. It could be because they are being heavily marked, have an injury or the opposition is countering their moves. You can't have hard and fast rules because football is too fluid. At the Broncos, sometimes Milford is the man, sometimes it's Boyd. The point is, the more options you have the better, provided you then work on making sure they communicate and don't over call each other. Melbourne's big three (big four when Inglis was there illegally) manage it, the Bronco's manage it and the Cowboys manage it, so there is no reason we can't get all three to work together. QLD manage to accomodate JT, Boyd, Cronk, Smith, Morgan and Inglis. It doesn't seem to have stopped them flogging NSW to within an inch of its life.

You see negatives in three playmakers, I see only positives because the best teams always have more than one playmaker. I'll say it again, when Moylan wants the ball he has been getting it. The inclusion of TMM will not change that. In fact it will give us a half with a genuine running game and will provide even more space for Moylan.

I have faith they will work it out, because as the season has gone on we have got better and better at creating tries with Moylan chiming in when he sees fit. TMM will only add to that. If our forwards deliver next year and give them the space, our playmakers will create havoc.

 

[betcats]

I don't see three playmakers as negative, we will definitely have Cleary, Moylan, Cartwright in the team plus Wallace and whoever follows at hooker. I just think a FB like Dallin hitting holes and providing some genuine support play to all these ball players will add more than a fourth or fith playmaker will.

We aren't lacking creativity or playmakers, we are lacking some traditional FB play though.

 

[franklin2323]

Betcats, you will note that I mentioned "the flow of the game". Even players better than Moylan, sometimes don't get the ball as much. It could be because they are being heavily marked, have an injury or the opposition is countering their moves. You can't have hard and fast rules because football is too fluid. At the Broncos, sometimes Milford is the man, sometimes it's Boyd. The point is, the more options you have the better, provided you then work on making sure they communicate and don't over call each other. Melbourne's big three (big four when Inglis was there illegally) manage it, the Bronco's manage it and the Cowboys manage it, so there is no reason we can't get all three to work together. QLD manage to accomodate JT, Boyd, Cronk, Smith, Morgan and Inglis. It doesn't seem to have stopped them flogging NSW to within an inch of its life.

You see negatives in three playmakers, I see only positives because the best teams always have more than one playmaker. I'll say it again, when Moylan wants the ball he has been getting it. The inclusion of TMM will not change that. In fact it will give us a half with a genuine running game and will provide even more space for Moylan.

I have faith they will work it out, because as the season has gone on we have got better and better at creating tries with Moylan chiming in when he sees fit. TMM will only add to that. If our forwards deliver next year and give them the space, our playmakers will create havoc.

I doubt Moylan would get the space he gets now if he was in the halves. Nor would it help our poor attack inside the attacking 20. So I think we can forget Moylan getting more ball or even the same at 6. He's a class player and will always have an affect on the game regardless

 

[mxlegend99]

Yeah we are missing something in not having a beast at fullback IMO. Moylan needs his wingers support to do his kick return duties and while he's not terrible under the high ball. He's not perfect either to bother keeping him there.

His strength is clearly getting the ball at half or 5/8th and having the vision and ability to find the best man to get the ball to. His running game holds the defence back to create space for his outside men.

We have Hiku, Whare and Te Maire Martin to fit back into the squad. As much potential as TMM has. Whare and Hiku should be ahead of him initially to fit back in.

You cant drop Waqa Blake and ideally you cant move Tyrone Peachey. So i think the best option is without doubt moving Moylan.

Moylan to half... we lose nothing as he does that job already. I think we gain alot having him focus exclusively on becoming the best 5/8th in the game.

DWZ to fullback... he might be slightly more likely to make an error. But we will gain more metres off kick returns from him and he was looking very fit, fast and strong the past 2 months... he's ready for more ball.

Blake or Hiku to the wing... i prefer Blake. But Hiku is a kiwi international and i just cant see us starting him in reserve grade after going hard to get him. Either one should be an asset at returning kicks and finishing off movements. Blake loves to chase bombs... he could be a great target on the wing for Cleary

Which opens up the right centre spot for Dean Whare... if hes injured Blake stays there and Hiku gets the wing spot.

Or we leave two of Blake, Whare and Hiku out of the team to hope TMM can offer more than they would... and he possibly could. But I think it's better to throw him in as a utility and pick our star backs ahead of him.

 

[PenrithPanther45]

I don't see three playmakers as negative, we will definitely have Cleary, Moylan, Cartwright in the team plus Wallace and whoever follows at hooker. I just think a FB like Dallin hitting holes and providing some genuine support play to all these ball players will add more than a fourth or fith playmaker will.

We aren't lacking creativity or playmakers, we are lacking some traditional FB play though.

DWZ did step up at the end of the year, can bust tackles and albeit can be a bad thing has a nice aggression to him which could be good at the back. He also has decent pace, at least more than Moylan. Moylan can try teach him how to pass well but it's not as important with all the playmakers we'd have.

 

[betcats]

DWZ did step up at the end of the year, can bust tackles and albeit can be a bad thing has a nice aggression to him which could be good at the back. He also has decent pace, at least more than Moylan. Moylan can try teach him how to pass well but it's not as important with all the playmakers we'd have.

Dallin can pass the ball no worries, he will never have Moylans vision or ball playing but he is quite skilled with the ball. Look at the pass he made to Waqa on that runaway try against the tigers, it was amazing at close to full flight.

His aggression needs to be controlled and focused, he does a pretty good job of that already but he has been occasionally distracted, it is paying off for us more than it is hurting us atm.

 

[Pomoz]

I don't see three playmakers as negative, we will definitely have Cleary, Moylan, Cartwright in the team plus Wallace and whoever follows at hooker. I just think a FB like Dallin hitting holes and providing some genuine support play to all these ball players will add more than a fourth or fith playmaker will.

We aren't lacking creativity or playmakers, we are lacking some traditional FB play though.

I can't argue with that. Even with an offseason on the weights, Moylan ain't ever gonna be a tackle busting, speed machine at fullback. I would have liked to have seen Hardaker given a chance at fullback, although I accept the timing of his arrival and where the team was at in its development, meant that was not possible. That door is probably shut now.

The answer is probably playing in the U20's this weekend. Speed, balance and vision. His name is Edwards. He is not particularly big, but nor is Billy Slater, Boyd or Bowen, so I think his size won't matter. Can he make the step up? I think we will find that out next year.

 

[Pomoz]

If Moylan moves to 5/8th, then TMM as a dummy half is the next logical step. He can be the next Cameron Smith. He has shown that a number 9 can be as important as a halfback. There will be a vacancy there in a year and he has an opportunity to understudy Wallace and make number nine his own. Not sure TMM will see it that way though.

It poses a question though. If moving Moylan to 5/8th means we lose TMM, is it worth it? Are we better with TMM at 5/8th and missing out on some of the fullback play that Moylan lacks?

Like waiting for bus, we had a psychotic Begbie like 5/8th who couldn't pass the salt let alone the ball for a few years and we were desperately crying out for a 5/8th and then two come along at once........

 

[betcats]

Look balancing TMMs potential vs what Moylan can do now is very difficult to do. All I can say is that IMO Moylan is the better 5/8th right now and I personally don't think we have seen his best. There are a lot of kids who show potential to be great and never are, Moylan is great already and I think we should just pick our strongest halves pairing. IF we lose TMM I can accept that, we cant keep everyone who has potential. That being said I would hope we could get more of a look at TMM through injury or off the bench before we did lose him but with a club filled to the brim with young talent I am past worrying about 1 kid.

If we didn't have a number of good FB options maybe I would feel the differently. We have Dallin and Hiku plus Edwards. I also think Soni Luke might figure into the hooker/future spine arrangement but we will see how that plays out.

I'm happy to go with the coach on this if he picks TMM but I just like to repeatedly state my opinion.

 

[franklin2323]

DWZ playing FB this week for NZ should give us an idea if he's worth trying there in the trials

 

[mxlegend99]

He hasnt played any footy in over a month... I'm not expecting much from him.

 

[franklin2323]

He hasnt played any footy in over a month... I'm not expecting much from him.

It's more the positioning and catching high balls that's the things to watch

 

[mxlegend99]

The main thing going for him is that its against the weakest opposition. Although that didn't really help O'neil, Dugan and Ferguson that much. The hit out did blow the cobwebs out for Ferguson and O'neil to perform much better the following week.

Dallin is unlikely to get that chance. so if he plays well it's a great sign that even after a month or two without footy he can perform well. if he doesn't it's not a huge concern though.

We just need him to stay fit. we cant lose him aswell as Mansour.